So yea....counter play, let's talk about it.

(watsyurdeal) #1

So something that I think that really needs to be discussed in regarding Mercs, is their counter play.

Perfect example, Fragger, people hate cooked nades, k, but, why not figure out to allow more ways to fix it rather than remove it altogether? Like a longer cooking time, or have him say the voice lines like “nade out” while he’s cooking it, or even increasing how long it takes for the grenade to recharge, or make it proportional to how long the nade was cooked for.

How about Aura? Yes, her healing station allows her to heal her allies very quickly and effectively…but why does it have more health than Aura? If it were weaker and had the old setup back…do you think it’d be easier to counter her? Would it be easier to take her out if healing station had only 40 health?

Just want to open the discussion here to counter play, and strictly counter play. The goal is to figure out skill based ways to deal with every merc, so it’s not just simple rock paper scissors.

(Zenity) #2

Aura’s teeth have already been pulled. Her station is really easy to take out, and the “more health than Aura” argument doesn’t really matter because a stationary target is infinitely easier to hit than a moving one. Have you not noticed the almost complete absence of Auras in the tournament? On publics she can still do well, but only if people don’t know how to deal with her effectively. The counter play is well and truly in place already.

Fragger’s grenades are being discussed non-stop, so there are tons of arguments floating about already. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see what the devs settle on in the end (if anything).

(Ruvan) #3

I’d personally like to see half a second delay or so of delay between releasing the grenade button and the actual grenade being thrown for Fragger.

99% of the problem with Fragger grenades is that you can cook them behind cover and, come out of cover and instantly throw them. This means that the enemy has no opportunity to see your grenade cooking animation and therefore there is no opportunity for counter play.

Edit: to clarify. I’d like to see enough delay that an individual has enough time to see the animation and get out of the way. I don’t think it should be so slow that Fragger can take significant small arms damage from a single person in that time. Although, perhaps he should be able to be focussed down by multiple people.

(Lumi) #4

I’ve never really thought of Aura of OP, she has after all 80HP and is the easiest merc to take down when away from her station. Station which can be easily shred to pieces by explosives as it takes increased damage by it. So one grenade from either Fragger or Nader or the new merc (sorry forgot his name) and it’s gone.

Now I like Aura as is, she’s a medic, so just like in MMO’s she’s weak and needs DPS and or Tanks to form a defense between her and others. Now what bugs me more is that the second medic has way more HP and can tank himself. How many of them have I seen throw a line of medpacks in front of them and going all rambo, getting healed as he picks up his own medkits. Imo, he should be much weaker, just as Aura, medics and supports should have less HP.

Now regarding grenades and other explosives, I think my proposal on this thread:forums.dirtybomb.nexon.net/discussion/10528/anti-nader-merc#latest could actually be of use as a counter mechanic.

I definitely believe that right now we have an over representation of explosive using mercs and we need something to calm all that down.

Now unless you give more examples of what you’d like to have some counter play, that’s it on my behalf.

(Szakalot) #5
  • healing from healthpacks gets instantly interrupted whenever you take damage
  • sawbonez medpack healrate is very slow

So not really how you describe it, its more likely that you just played against a good sawbonez, as he isnt in free rotation anymore, and caters to the W:ET medic playstyle.

(Lumi) #6

Still doesn’t change the fact that you’re either medic, either offense. Right now good players are abusing of a tanky merc that can retreat quickly for a fix auto heal.

But that isn’t even what bothers me most about sawbonez, what bothers me is that while that “good” player is playing rambo, although one would assume the team has medic, in the end almost nobody gets revived or medpacks. At least Aura is so weak that she ends up primarily helping others instead of leading the offense. With Sawbonez, nobody is tending to the rest of the team…

(Szakalot) #7

first of all sawbonez is hardly tanky! medium HP at 110, higher than light mercs and vassili, lower than everybody else, xcept nader. Medium guns, with the exception of crotzni, which is still only best at close range (due to recent accuracy nerf)

secondly: now you are just complaining! Whether Aura or Sawbonez will be a ‘nice’ medic or a rambo is up to the individual player. Aura is a little harder to use as a rambo, cause you have to rely on flanks and backshag runs, rather than straight up run n gun. Also, Aura is a base merc that any new player can use, as opposed to sawbonez who you have to unlock. New players are much more likely to try to be ‘nice medics’ , because they dont really know how to rambo.

(Lumi) #8

I don’t get your point.

Mine is that regardless of new or old player, sawbonez should be rewarded for medic play more than for rambo play. But maybe that’s just because too much xp is given to kills, regardless if your merks primary goal is to kill or not.

In the end, you’re right that most assaults have more HP than sawbonez but the point is that on one vs one every non combat role merc is underpowered. Sawbonez has the edge.

And the argument of being a base merc is faulty as you’re basically promoting a pay to win. But this is supposed to be equilibrated merc wise. Advantages should come through higher level loadouts only.

(Szakalot) #9

[quote=“satisfyingCove;18786”]I don’t get your point.

Mine is that regardless of new or old player, sawbonez should be rewarded for medic play more than for rambo play. But maybe that’s just because too much xp is given to kills, regardless if your merks primary goal is to kill or not. [/quote]

I thought Support XP was buffed in this patch. Not sure about the numbers but sure - i have no problems with revives and heals giving more xp to medics.

In the end, you’re right that most assaults have more HP than sawbonez but the point is that on one vs one every non combat role merc is underpowered. Sawbonez has the edge.

What edge? Run away and heal? Its SUPER SLOW. Sawbonez is much better off being a support for another merc, and keep them at full HP

And the argument of being a base merc is faulty as you’re basically promoting a pay to win. But this is supposed to be equilibrated merc wise. Advantages should come through higher level loadouts only.

Its not an argument, its an explanation as to why you are more likely to find ‘nice medic’ auras than ‘nice medic’ sawbonez.

(umberInlet) #10

I just want to chime in about my experience with Sawbonez. To me, Sawbonez is a very mobile Meduc, which gives him an edge of going rambo from his team. But, technically, he is weaker than other combat-based mercs. He does have med packs to give himself, but its very slow, and only useful while not in a crossfire. In a one on one battle without cover, Sawbonez will lose against tankier mercs. Of course, other conditions such as player skill and combat readiness also comes into play, along with the environment itself (cover vs no cover), if we are talking about a real match.

(watsyurdeal) #11

Personally, I don’t mind Medics healing themselves as much anymore.

Honestly the only thing that urks me is a few things

  1. Why is the healing station so hard to destroy with bullets? Why is it not 60 health or something instead, so focusing the station is a viable tactic to dealing with a tanky Aura?

  2. Why is the gib HP different for each class? Why not the same so different weapons have faster or slower gib times over others, giving them an extra subtle but useful advantage.

  3. Why is the wind up for Reviving people so quick? Why isn’t it slowed down a bit more to give people time finish people off if a Medic isn’t there to revive or protect them to begin with? In other words not sticking with his allies and keeping them up like he should be.

I don’t think nerfing particular classes is as important right now as fixing a few of the base mechanics of the game, like spawns, maps, etc.

(Lumi) #12

The HP edge! I mainly play weak mercs: Aura, Proxy, etc. Just doesn’t make sense to me that there is a 20 to 30HP gap between all of those low life objective mercs compared to sawbonez but only 10HP difference in Skyhammers favor (only Fragger has an extreme difference but I count that as the exceptional tank merc).

Right now every time I’m trying to get close to the objective with an engineer on a one vs one, sawbonez can kill me while he remained with exactly the amount of extra hp he has.

So three solutions to this, either drop down his total HP to 90, or make his weapons deal less damage (which would then possibly make him too weak in comparison with stronger assault mercs), or buff low HP mercs damage.

Just doesn’t seem right that a healer has more HP than a support to me…

(Szakalot) #13

Proxy is faster though, you can use that to your advantage to dodge them headshots, and nulify the 30hp difference.

I saw multiple high-skilled proxies that would SHRED me, regardless of whether im playing big mercs, or sawbonez or whatever

(Glot) #14

[quote=“Szakalot;18970”]
I saw multiple high-skilled proxies that would SHRED me, regardless of whether im playing big mercs, or sawbonez or whatever[/quote]
thnx, but this thread is realy not about me. lets get on topic!

:DDDDDDDDDDDDD

(umberInlet) #15

Pretty much what @Szakalot had said. Sawbonez doesn’t have that much of an edge in combat really. I would say an SMG Aura will be a lot better if she has a healing pod behind cover, and she’s the fastest merc as well in addition.

(Lumi) #16

Everyone is saying if this, if that then Sawbonez has no advantage, but I’m talking about raw numbers here. When no headshots on either side, nor healing packs nor stations with or without movement, a sawbonez will take more shots than any other role based merc. Shouldn’t be that way.

(watsyurdeal) #17

Um, he takes just as many shots as Nader, Bush, and Fletcher.

He’s got more bulk because he’s a more aggressive Medic, Aura does not and instead has speed because she’s not designed to be rushing class, she’s meant to be on defense. That’s why she has a Shotgun, not an SMG, and why it’s smart to put your healing station behind cover, and protect it since anyone who comes near it is within shotgun range.

It’s just a matter of flavor, that’s really what it comes down to. Do you want a Medic who’s built for offense, or defense?

(Lumi) #18

[quote=“majesticClue;19035”]

It’s just a matter of flavor, that’s really what it comes down to. Do you want a Medic who’s built for offense, or defense?[/quote]

That’s exactly my point. I believe there’s a deep flaw in thinking that an offensive medic should exist. We have enough offensive mercs, there is no need for an offensive medic. It should be defensive, just as Aura. Medics are supposed to be support classes. At least that’s my opinion.

(Szakalot) #19

support classes can be offensive. Whats the problem there?

If medics are only to be defensive, is that the same as saying only the defenders should be able to use medics?

(umberInlet) #20

I agree @Szakalot . There’s nothing wrong with having an agressive healer. I’ve already seen this kind of thing in other shooters anyways, so its not anything new. DB isn’t an RPG game where there is (usually) a holy trinity. Splash Damage wants to cater to all playstyles, hence the rest of the 20 mercs that will be coming.