Other than the last two points, couldn’t we apply the same points to explosives such as frag nades, stickys, molotovs, conc nades? I haven’t really seen any posts complaining much about those and neither did I see many posts complaining about jump sniping before it was removed.
It’s simply something you need to adjust to. It’s no harder to play against a jump sniping Vassili than it is to assault a Fletcher throwing his stickys around the corner.
In some very closed areas you can effectively hold down a corridor by spamming explosives from Fletcher/Nader with no risk and rushing that path with more mercs will just give the defenders only more kills. But if you know where the jump sniper is you can effectively just flank him by yourself. If you can’t manage that, rushing him as two should never fail as long as it’s a 2vs1 situation.
My point is, it wasn’t a needed nerf. If snipers were OP, there could have been other ways of nerfing them instead of removing a skillful mechanic. Or was the comp scene filled with OP jump snipers?
If it would have been well justified and used as a balancing excuse, maybe I would have been fine with it, but I’m still definitely not fine the way removing it was answered.
Dirty Bomb doesn’t need to be dumbed down for casuals. If you want a casual shooter, just play something else.
I guess this is also why I have to defend the shotgun bunnys. I hate using shotguns and I also find them extremely annoying to play against, but it’s not really difficult to play against.
Those last two points are why explosives are (more-or-less) balanced. If you wanna kill someone with a grenade, you gotta get in pineapple chuckin range, and the other team can react to you cooking pineapples.
Also bitching about the conc is a fairly regular occurrence.
Adjusting to it is doable. Counterplaying is a different story. There is no way to counterplay getting one shot by someone exposing himself for 1/20th of a second.
Yes, good snipers don’t stand in the open, they peek. This still exposes them for longer AND gives you a position to flank. Jumpsniping could be done over any cover and while moving positions.
“Some very closed areas” Who would’ve guessed that AoE spam is a good way to area control indoors?
“Rushing that path… more kills” Is this not true of snipers? Charging down center of Bridge 1 with a sniper at red van is a good way to die.
“But if you know… flank him by yourself.” Jump snipers can move pretty much anywhere. There are way too many potential positions for a jump sniper to take, and then the bad ones use their sensor to cover a flank path, rather than scout attack routes.
“Rushing him as two… 2vs1 situation.” At that point you’re probably losing the frontlines to take out the backline.
Gonna ignore the first part because opinion and I don’t have extensive competitive knowledge.
I do see it as a balancing excuse. Rather than having all the sniper spots and any 10 foot wall being viable sniper posts, it was cut to the designed spots and whatever players can find.
No disagreement there.
[quote=“Dracorion;192150”]
I guess this is also why I have to defend the shotgun bunnys. I hate using shotguns and I also find them extremely annoying to play against, but it’s not really difficult to play against.[/quote]
Aim for the watermelon, try to keep distance and stop strafing for fractions of a second to throw off their tracking. The last point would become more relevant if shotguns got halved damage, double fire rate to encourage tracking like every other weapon (exception of snipers).
EDITS: Formatting. Quotes are hard on minimal sleep.
if its fletcher on the corner throwing stickies, if you dont follow/ rush him and leave him be nobody wins and both are on a mexican standoff.
in jumpsniping if you dont try to rush the sniper, you lose.
when you rush the sniper, you lose too.
its not a casual thing, its a stupid mechanic in which gives easy kills just like jumping shotgun. while jumping shotgun itself needed you to get close to your target which is risky enough.
[quote=“AnimeDude;192142”][quote=“arcaneCanvas;192107”]
bunnyhopping shotgun is high risk high reward. while jump sniping usually is just behind a cover and then he jumps up and down. tell me, which one is easier to kill? bunny hoppers or a sniper with a cover across the map in which virtually imposible to outflank?
“hurr you just have to get close”
yea try to get close without getting detected by anyone. even phantom now cant even do that to an experienced snipers.
“hurr there must be some kind of counterplay”
you get to cqc, you dead
you try to drop arty, he fled
you try to outsnipe him, hes behind a wall/ is jumping while sniping towards you
hell why dont we just remove all the vertical and horizontal spread on every merc arsenal and play clusterfug jumping rabbits?[/quote]
Is this the newest in trolling technology?
“high risk high reward” What do you risk exactly when jumping with a shotgun? Your aim? It’s still piss easy to aim with a shotgun while jumping if you’re flicking like you’re supposed too, so you risk next to nothing while making yourself a harder target to hit, with jump sniping behind cover you have about half a second to see wtf you’re even shooting at, aim and fire. What are the chances that someone @$!# jump sniping is going to kill you opposed to someone hopping around the walls around you with a shotgun? “Duuhhh they’re across the map! Impossible to outflank!” Is the same not true for a sniper standing completely still on the ground?
Again, is the same exact thing not true for a sniper standing completely still? How are you going to pretend like Vaseline is a massive threat in close quarters? The chances of someone on the ground out-sniping someone who is attempting to jump-snipe are much greater considering how hard it is to land those types of shots in the first place.
[/quote]
High risk, you need to get close to your enemies which is not easy as it looks. a good burst will stop any bunny hoppers.
high reward, shotgun rewards CQC play because it has low aiming skill and high damage at close range.
a good vasilli is a massive threat in all ranges.
his rifle (MOA,PDP,FEL-IX) can devastate a merc or even Mercs (one shot can do a multiple kills) if they want to rush vasilli. plus vasilli ability to throw spotting balls to see thru walls, and his machine pistol, and his range advantage, and his no damage falloff.
remember, vasilli skill ceilling is very high.
"with jump sniping behind cover you have about half a second to see wtf you’re even shooting at, aim and fire. "
a good sniper only need a peek to hit their enemies. they have a good photographic memory and spotting balls also helping the sniper even further.
“Duuhhh they’re across the map! Impossible to outflank!”
this is very true since vasilli can spot enemies thru walls and can predict where their enemies going to pop up.
“The chances of someone on the ground out-sniping someone who is attempting to jump-snipe are much greater considering how hard it is to land those types of shots in the first place.”
its not that easy for someone who dont use sniper rifle to outsnipe a sniper that only reveal themselves in a half a sec time window.
you see, you can already see the enemies and remember the layout of the map like stairs, cover and everything. all you have to do is jump and shoot. if you fail you can just wait and then shoot again.
dirty bomb is a team based shooter, this gameplay doesnt reward team based tactics.
this is just like phantom all over again
“High risk, you need to get close to your enemies which is not easy as it looks. a good burst will stop any bunny hoppers.
high reward, shotgun rewards CQC play because it has low aiming skill and high damage at close range.”
shotguns need to get in close range anyways, bunnyhopping only makes it a lower risk for the same reward.
“a good sniper only need a peek to hit their enemies. they have a good photographic memory and spotting balls also helping the sniper even further.”
idk vs what kind of enemies you play but a photographic memory has no point if the enemies actually move.
“its not that easy for someone who dont use sniper rifle to outsnipe a sniper that only reveal themselves in a half a sec time window.”
You never noticed the insanely op burst rifles in this game and sparks?
“dirty bomb is a team based shooter, this gameplay doesnt reward team based tactics.”
and how does Vassili then promote team based gameplay? Either he’s sitting in the back of the map shooting people or he does it while jumping and having a higher chance of surviving himself so he can throw more heartbeat sensors for his team.
@Jostabeere, no, but compare the area of effect. Explosives have a rather huge range when you compare having to aim a headshot with a single shot while mid air. And while not all abilities I mentioned instakill, they can still be used to full effect in that manner.
@MisterBadmin
Personally I found the counterplay to be sufficient.
Right now I find sniping to be rather limited due to being forced to snipe from the ground. Also maps like Terminal and Underground are rather close-mid range focused, limiting snipers to either snipe from a rather bad sniping nest or make them abandon their long range advantage.
I haven’t really been paying attention to the latest comp meta in DBN, so if anyone can enlighten me, I’d be really curious to find out how often are specifically bolt action sniper rifles being played these days.
I still think there could have been a better way to nerf snipers if they were problematic.
The only real buff sniper rifles have gotten is the removal of scope sway? Which wasn’t needed either, it just made sniping more convenient and reduced the skill ceiling, again.
They could have just as well nerfed the time to scope and forced snipers to unscope while starting to jump, thus reducing the time frame of possible jump snipes.
I’d even give up 50% bodyshot damage on sniper rifles if that would allow me to jump snipe again, which would also increase the skill ceiling for the guns that are meant to have high skill ceiling. Bodyshots are just dumb and dirty even as a sniper main.
Not a great suggestion, but SD could have even added more aimpunch to the sniper rifles at close range, if they felt that jump sniping made CQC too easy for the better sniper mains.
I hate to be that guy, but how many of you actually think there will be many people jump sniping from across the map in the game. The majority of people I see playing this game can barely snipe a stationary target while standing still themselves. Yes it can be annoying, but the few times it actually happened to me when it was still in the game I was more impressed than anything. And now without the instant gib there is plenty of time for a competent medic to revive you before the person can jump back up to land another shot.
[quote=“neverplayserious;192174”]“High risk, you need to get close to your enemies which is not easy as it looks. a good burst will stop any bunny hoppers.
high reward, shotgun rewards CQC play because it has low aiming skill and high damage at close range.”
shotguns need to get in close range anyways, bunnyhopping only makes it a lower risk for the same reward.
“a good sniper only need a peek to hit their enemies. they have a good photographic memory and spotting balls also helping the sniper even further.”
idk vs what kind of enemies you play but a photographic memory has no point if the enemies actually move.
“its not that easy for someone who dont use sniper rifle to outsnipe a sniper that only reveal themselves in a half a sec time window.”
You never noticed the insanely op burst rifles in this game and sparks?
“dirty bomb is a team based shooter, this gameplay doesnt reward team based tactics.”
and how does Vassili then promote team based gameplay? Either he’s sitting in the back of the map shooting people or he does it while jumping and having a higher chance of surviving himself so he can throw more heartbeat sensors for his team.[/quote]
going to close range is a big risk. just waiting for the enemy to get close is also a more risk. its like gambling, while playing jumpsniping guaranteed full cover at longest range and maximum detection on area around you.
photographic memory makes you remember on how many enemies and where they are at the last time you saw them while your spotting grenade is on cooldown.
even revivr rifle or Stark AR is OP, you dont have any guarantee to kill them in one hit.
hell, revivr rifle cant kill vasilli in long range because the falloff.
back your team up by hiding the spotting grenade and occasionally push and flank with the team is better than sitting behind a piece of cover while the enemy keeps respawning and your shots meant nothing.
vasilli is best used as a prevention method. to engage targets that arent close enough for your teammates to kill or hurt.
there is a reason why DB doesnt want sniper to have jumpshots, its even worse than bunny hops shotgun.
@Dracorion
When I talk about counterplay regarding jump sniping, I’m talking on-the-fly counterplay, not strategic.
Strategic counterplay is “They have X, I’ll go Y to counter.” (This is the Rock-Paper-Scissors style RTS and things like OW use.)
On-the-fly is about reading the current state of the battlefield and reacting. Say Fragger is cooking a nade. You can try to kill him or try to juke the pineapple. It depends on who you are, what weapons you both have, how much ammo and health you have, how many teammates you’ve got around and probably at least 30 other factors.
Jump sniping (by which I mean using jumps to peek over walls, not for positioning, that was an unfortunate casualty) has almost no on-the-fly counterplay. You don’t know where he will peek, when he will peek or who he will target. The only way to realize he is there is when you or a teammate drops.
The way to counter it is by having a better sniper who can acquire his target’s head in the time it is above the wall. An assault rifle only has a chance against a sniper if it can sustain fire. When a sniper’s position is relatively known, it’s possible to flank. When he has something like 15 positions at each objective that all have cover and escape routes, flanking becomes absurdly hard.
I’m going to make some fairly large assumptions in the next paragraph. Take it with as much salt as is safe.
I think Overground played a massive role in getting jump sniping removed. There’s the one wooden wall overlooking long A. That’s the only wall I ever had major problems with. A single Vaseline picked off 3 of my teammates with mostly bodyshots. I landed lots of headshots, but he got the third just before I downed him (most of my team were engaged with the rest). At that point, one fairly low-skill sniper basically won them that round. A sniper that doesn’t hit headshots shouldn’t be able to carry that hard.
I haven’t been following too close, but I seem to recall PDP being the rifle of choice.
Balance is a very tricky thing, especially with snipers because idiots new players flock to them to become the xX_420YOLOSWAG360N0sC0pE_pRo_Xx. Taking potential out from the bottom (i.e. dropping damage output [either directly through cutting damage or indirectly by dropping fire rate]) would affect everyone, making the spawn-guarding Vaselines even more useless. Taking potential off the top (i.e. jump sniping) is a targeted nerf to really good players. Take the one from Overground. If he was REALLY good, he would’ve killed my entire team, while barely exposing himself.
Not a sniper or game designer, don’t wanna say something really stupid regarding intricate mechanics like that. (Especially regarding other weapons. Having a specific mechanic only relevant to 3 weapons seems really counter-intuitive to the transferable skills style most FPS go for.)
I’d be perfectly alright with a 35 bodyshot MOA (140 head) and 40 bodyshot Fel-ix (160 head), but that brings up the problem of nuking the potential of new snipers. Looking back at that Overground example, the bad sniper that I played against has now added ~6 Blishlok bodyshots to the fight. The hypothetical god-tier sniper still has the same contribution.
I never/rarely saw anyone complain about jump sniping until AFTER the nerf. Then it seemed like people just thought, “hey, I like this nerf because I hate snipers.”
the main reason to remove jump-sniping is that as the victim you were:
[list]
[] killed instantly
[] by someone you couldn’t see
[] who hasn’t had to expose themselves
[] with absolutely no warning
[] from across the other side of the map
[] without a cooldown
[/list]
There are several one-hit-kill abilities in Dirty Bomb, but all of them have at least a little bit more warning and potential counters than this. The fact that jump-sniping is a little absurd and also the behaviour was inconsistent with the additional spread other weapons have when jumping is simply the final nail in the coffin.
In other words: jump-sniping is gone for good.
But for the sake of discussion, when you jump-snipe, you are effectively eliminating a good portion of the vertical aim required. How this tranlates to ‘more skill required’ is beyond me. At best, the skill requirement is exactly the same. It would help if this postulate was not always used as a central argument in favor.[/quote]
Say all of this true. Say jump sniping fit all the bullet points smooth allegedly said.
Most people still want jump sniping back, despite these bullet points. So why don’t they just revert it back.
I’m not trying to tell the devs how to develop a game and what’s wrong or right. I’m just pointing out how the community wants jump sniping back. As I’ve said in a previous thread. A dirty bomb youtuber GuilteTV stopped playing bomb because of that change.
@arcaneCanvas dude… You obviously haven’t counter sniped a jumpsniper. If they don’t change their location when they jump, they’re incredibly easy to hit a headshot on, and most jumpsnipers don’t move that often. All you have to do is line up where they jumped last, when their head pops up, ding.
Why does he need that Jump sniping when he has that 110HP and MOA that has quite crazy RoF by buff accumulation.
He is a damn sniper that can one shot people from a far with most accurate gun in this game,
and able to sustain Stark’s whole burst headshot, two Dreiss headshot.
I consider Pro vassili nowadays quite OP with that.
Failed to land headshot? those guys will bodyshot you and win the dual with MP400.
DB just isn’t hyper-FPS.
It’s quite alright to kill Vas with burst rifles, which is the only effective weapon to kill/damage him from far, but If this Vassili’s biggest threat : burst rifles are nerfed, you won’t be evading his HP roll-back to 100HP.
Of course pub, mediocre Vassili is still hella easy to kill, but I really gotta say he is quite OP when you are skilled enough to land your shots.
Whether he has that Jump shooting or not, 110HP is REALLY tanky as vulnerable far range dmg dealer.
If a Fletcher explodes a sticky around a corner in your face, can’t react to it.
Vassili headshotting you with a jumpshot, can’t react to it.
BUT, if you got general awareness of either of them, you got time for counterplay.
And just like you need to be aware of your enemies and timing when using stickys/nades, the same applies to Vassili taking his jump shots.
Jump sniping isn’t as consistent to pull off as people seem to think and I doubt everyone in this thread even had the time to practice it in the game while it was there.
Now your example of Overground. If the sniper rifle was PDP, I wouldn’t wonder(broken gun atm).
I haven’t really played that gamemode more than just a few times, so I’m not sure what exact wall you’re talking about, but if it’s that easily abused it’s possibly something overlooked in the map design or it can be used just as effectively with other long range favored guns.
There have been many valid points about why jump sniping deserved to be removed, but there hasn’t been any proof to justify it.
Nobody has even claimed that playing against a jump sniper at their ELO/rank level was OP. It’s because people at higher level can understand these values, their pros and cons. While at lower level of play you can barely find anyone who could jump snipe consistently and be effective at it.
I simply can’t accept SD’s decision on this just by saying it’s annoying to play against.
I’d like some actual proof that jump sniping was OP or dominating the game or ruining the playing experience for the receiving end.
I mean I can claim explosives and shotguns and whatever to be annoying as well, does that mean SD should consider heavily nerfing or removing them???
The jump sniping isn’t specific to Vassili only, but I do agree the random +10hp buff for Vassili was undeserved.[/quote]
Yap. The reason why Red Eye’s 120HP isn’t a problem is because his whole weapon is semi-auto that can’t one shot full HP male mercs/doesn’t have MP400 unless you are shooting female mercs with PDP.
But the reason why I’m emphasizing Vassili the most is,
MOA was the only gun that were 100% accurate if zoomed, that’s why.
It is STILL the most accurate gun in this game when zoomed.
MOA SNPR-1 bolt action sniper rifle is just Vassili’s icon weapon.
Also the main reason why Felix is still having such a hard time when it compared to MOA.
Abosolutely no reason to use Felix unless you are Aimee, or shooting SNITCHED target.
I mean, seriously if Aimee and Red Eye were able to jumpshot with Felix and PDP, that will sure make me vomit.
bunnyhopping shotgun is high risk high reward. while jump sniping usually is just behind a cover and then he jumps up and down. tell me, which one is easier to kill? bunny hoppers or a sniper with a cover across the map in which virtually imposible to outflank?
I am wondering if you ever think about the skills that require to do both different actions.
Are you asking this question base on both actions require same skill ? If that’s so, I want to ask another question, why would people called Vassili cancer ?
Also, shotgun does an incredible damage in close range fight while just need to know how to jump and aim properly, which actually require much lower skills than a sniper who can aim properly.
I’ve seen so many vassili players who can’t do any shit for his team and suddenly being helpful, because he/she changed the merc.
@TheScreamingHedgehog also made a good point, is it the fact that we have MANY vassili players that can be GOD VASSILI ?
the main reason to remove jump-sniping is that as the victim you were:
[list]
[] killed instantly
[] by someone you couldn’t see
[] who hasn’t had to expose themselves
[] with absolutely no warning
[] from across the other side of the map
[] without a cooldown
[/list]
There are several one-hit-kill abilities in Dirty Bomb, but all of them have at least a little bit more warning and potential counters than this. The fact that jump-sniping is a little absurd and also the behaviour was inconsistent with the additional spread other weapons have when jumping is simply the final nail in the coffin.
In other words: jump-sniping is gone for good.
But for the sake of discussion, when you jump-snipe, you are effectively eliminating a good portion of the vertical aim required. How this tranlates to ‘more skill required’ is beyond me. At best, the skill requirement is exactly the same. It would help if this postulate was not always used as a central argument in favor.[/quote]
Well think about it, how many times have you been killed by bunnyhopping shotgun mercs vs jumpsniping Vassilis? They removed instagib for sniper rifles which gives enough time for medics to revive people. Jumpsniping gives the player at most around 1 second to react and HEADSHOT someone from across the map, have you even tried and know how hard that is?
well, this is a skilled vas im talking about here.
there is no way you can predict what he will do next.
for all you know hes going to jump then suddenly he went crouch then shot you from another angle.
[quote=“Black;192194”][quote=“Runeforce;192118”]Smooth said this:
the main reason to remove jump-sniping is that as the victim you were:
[list]
[] killed instantly
[] by someone you couldn’t see
[] who hasn’t had to expose themselves
[] with absolutely no warning
[] from across the other side of the map
[] without a cooldown
[/list]
There are several one-hit-kill abilities in Dirty Bomb, but all of them have at least a little bit more warning and potential counters than this. The fact that jump-sniping is a little absurd and also the behaviour was inconsistent with the additional spread other weapons have when jumping is simply the final nail in the coffin.
In other words: jump-sniping is gone for good.
But for the sake of discussion, when you jump-snipe, you are effectively eliminating a good portion of the vertical aim required. How this tranlates to ‘more skill required’ is beyond me. At best, the skill requirement is exactly the same. It would help if this postulate was not always used as a central argument in favor.[/quote]
Say all of this true. Say jump sniping fit all the bullet points smooth allegedly said.
Most people still want jump sniping back, despite these bullet points. So why don’t they just revert it back.
I’m not trying to tell the devs how to develop a game and what’s wrong or right. I’m just pointing out how the community wants jump sniping back. As I’ve said in a previous thread. A dirty bomb youtuber GuilteTV stopped playing bomb because of that change.[/quote]
people still want Cheating back, despite some of these players calling it annoying. So why don’t they just let it back.
because people like it doesnt mean the developer allows it.
because there are feedback system when youre going to exit dirty bomb
[quote=“Dracorion;192201”]@MisterBadmin
About on-the-fly counterplay.
If a Fletcher explodes a sticky around a corner in your face, can’t react to it.
Vassili headshotting you with a jumpshot, can’t react to it.
BUT, if you got general awareness of either of them, you got time for counterplay.
And just like you need to be aware of your enemies and timing when using stickys/nades, the same applies to Vassili taking his jump shots.
Jump sniping isn’t as consistent to pull off as people seem to think and I doubt everyone in this thread even had the time to practice it in the game while it was there.
Now your example of Overground. If the sniper rifle was PDP, I wouldn’t wonder(broken gun atm).
I haven’t really played that gamemode more than just a few times, so I’m not sure what exact wall you’re talking about, but if it’s that easily abused it’s possibly something overlooked in the map design or it can be used just as effectively with other long range favored guns.
There have been many valid points about why jump sniping deserved to be removed, but there hasn’t been any proof to justify it.
Nobody has even claimed that playing against a jump sniper at their ELO/rank level was OP. It’s because people at higher level can understand these values, their pros and cons. While at lower level of play you can barely find anyone who could jump snipe consistently and be effective at it.
I simply can’t accept SD’s decision on this just by saying it’s annoying to play against.
I’d like some actual proof that jump sniping was OP or dominating the game or ruining the playing experience for the receiving end.
I mean I can claim explosives and shotguns and whatever to be annoying as well, does that mean SD should consider heavily nerfing or removing them???[/quote]
“If a Fletcher explodes a sticky around a corner in your face, can’t react to it.
Vassili headshotting you with a jumpshot, can’t react to it.”
if a fletcher is going around the corner, you dont follow him. nobody wins and keep the game going.
its just simply weird if you know youre going to die doing it but still trying to get him.
And just like you need to be aware of your enemies and timing when using stickys/nades, the same applies to Vassili taking his jump shots.
the game helps you to be aware (spotting grenade)+ your own awareness and fletcher having an awareness is 2 different thing.
fletcher is going to throw sticky if someone goes to that corner, he waits for it, then nobody comes out nobody wins.
vasilli is going to snipe that guy while jumping, he knows that guy wont be popping up on the right, so he snipe left where the guy is running.
I simply can’t accept SD’s decision on this just by saying it’s annoying to play against.
I’d like some actual proof that jump sniping was OP or dominating the game or ruining the playing experience for the receiving end.
do you even play the game when it was still allowed? because the server plagued by 4 vasilli in a team and in which proceed to just suck or blatantly annoying but still wont win the game.
I mean I can claim explosives and shotguns and whatever to be annoying as well, does that mean SD should consider heavily nerfing or removing them???
if youre against an equal opponent, its really hard to pull jumping shotgun because you know you will get bursted by kira or skyhammers.
[quote=“AlphaUT;192206”]
bunnyhopping shotgun is high risk high reward. while jump sniping usually is just behind a cover and then he jumps up and down. tell me, which one is easier to kill? bunny hoppers or a sniper with a cover across the map in which virtually imposible to outflank?
I am wondering if you ever think about the skills that require to do both different actions.
Are you asking this question base on both actions require same skill ? If that’s so, I want to ask another question, why would people called Vassili cancer ?
Also, shotgun does an incredible damage in close range fight while just need to know how to jump and aim properly, which actually require much lower skills than a sniper who can aim properly.
I’ve seen so many vassili players who can’t do any @$!# for his team and suddenly being helpful, because he/she changed the merc.
@TheScreamingHedgehog also made a good point, is it the fact that we have MANY vassili players that can be GOD VASSILI ?[/quote]
why would people called Vassili cancer ?
because they see noobies in the pubs who cant shoot, who cant aim properly.
my argument is only valid when youre against a highly skilled vas that has played vas and maining vas for a long time.
i have no problem dispatching an average skill vas.
but everyone will have problem dipatching a highly skilled vas behind a cover, jumpsniping people from across the map.
everyone will have problem when a merc is literally unkillable at certain skill level.
