Sniping

(Apoc) #1

Sniper feedback thread, started on a previous patch - posts relevant to this patch starting from here

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(Bananas) #2

Not sure why you feel this is feedback on “sniping” and not the covy class in general. You covered the majority of what the class is. Should have just stuck it in one of the other covy threads. Too many threads being made on the same topics makes it hard to follow the feedback.

That being said, agree that sniper 1 >>>>>> sniper 2.

Agree on zoom amount.

Don’t care about unscoped accuracy. If they’re that close, you’re better off pistoling or knifing. Could be reduced a little I guess. Would rather see the problem fixed by allowing faster scope -> shoot.

(Humate) #3

Now in DB as it is, i cant help feeling that none of the maps feel wide/large enough for any actual long range sniping

I used to think that too.

You just have to learn all the spots on each phase of the map. :slight_smile:
Use the maps assets to your advantage to give you a better view. eg jumping on a van/car

most of the sniping is done short range or at most medium range, which doesnt overly suit snipers unless they are changed appropriately.

Dont know whether you had the chance to play Camden, but thats probably more to your liking. :slight_smile:

Other than that, i would make weapon switch a little faster

Seems pretty quick to me. At least from sniper to mp. From mp to sniper you might have to deal with a reload animation that slows things down.

Slow to go in/come out of scope.

We must be using a different gun. I seem to keep disagreeing with you :frowning:

Try this test - throw two of your radar nades as far as you can (let them hit the ground) and see how fast you can blow both of them up. You would be surprised to see how fast you can kill two targets in succession.

(stealth6) #4

Bolt action rifle.

'nuff said.

(Apoc) #5

[QUOTE=Bananas;416737]Not sure why you feel this is feedback on “sniping” and not the covy class in general. You covered the majority of what the class is. Should have just stuck it in one of the other covy threads. Too many threads being made on the same topics makes it hard to follow the feedback.
[/QUOTE]

This thread focuses on the weapon and weapon balance of the class. I dont think that this overlaps on your thread. Where talk is focused on new items, new abilities, talking about its purpose as a class etc.
If all feedback will be in one of 5 class topics and no one will be able to add threads on more specific, in depth topics then i feel feedback will be less efficient to be honest. Im all for not overlapping topics, but theres a difference between a broad overview and an in depth look at a specific aspect.

(Apoc) #6

[QUOTE=Humate;416749]I used to think that too.

You just have to learn all the spots on each phase of the map. :slight_smile:
Use the maps assets to your advantage to give you a better view. eg jumping on a van/car

Dont know whether you had the chance to play Camden, but thats probably more to your liking. :slight_smile:

Seems pretty quick to me. At least from sniper to mp. From mp to sniper you might have to deal with a reload animation that slows things down.

We must be using a different gun. I seem to keep disagreeing with you :frowning:

Try this test - throw two of your radar nades as far as you can (let them hit the ground) and see how fast you can blow both of them up. You would be surprised to see how fast you can kill two targets in succession.[/QUOTE]

I agree some maps are a bit better than others and slightly longer range, but none are actually long range, they are just long range by comparrison to all the small and med range on all the other maps.
And yea its fast as long as you havent been shooting, but if you fire the sniper then change there is a delay that will always get you killed.
Also i know it is quite fast, but the scope bug means you cant shoot accurately when its scoped in at first, so you actually have to wait a moment or 2 for the game to consider it in scope, even when you are already.

(INF3RN0) #7

I don’t want anything done with the sniper weapons until I see some uber snipers master it. I find it takes some getting used to, but I feel like it will eventually get to the point where some people can make it highly viable. At the moment it seems to require some good positioning to be really effective, but again I don’t think anyone has fully mastered the class quite yet- so I don’t want to make any judgement calls.

(Dthy) #8

I agree with the zoom being to much, It’s stopping me using it (and the class in general) like I did in ET:QW :frowning:

(INF3RN0) #9

Adding a zoom level feature like in etqw is about as much as I would like changed on the snipers for now.

(warbie) #10

I’d very much like the option of choosing a separate sensitivity when scoped.

(AKAMrSmiley) #11

[QUOTE=Apoc;416789]
And yea its fast as long as you havent been shooting, but if you fire the sniper then change there is a delay that will always get you killed. [/QUOTE]
That delay as well as the strength of the sniper 1 secondary definitely makes close range quick scoping completely unviable, its more reliable to just playing the corner with the side arm. I’d say sniper 1 and sniper 2 side arms should be switched and the delay of shooting in between weapon switches be removed or at least drastically reduced. Close range quick scoping in my opinion takes more skill than the sniper 1’s side arm and that should be reflected by it being some what effective, which it really isn’t. At the same time if you were to keep sniper 1’s side arm and remove the delay I’d say sniper 1 would be too effective in close range. At the same time sniper 2 seems to be really lackluster because of its lack of a single headshot kill potential in a game where the majority of the weapons are extremely accurate and kill quickly, maybe the upgrade in the side arm will make it slightly more viable.

(Humate) #12

The delay from sniper to mp is based on how quick you unscope after the shot is taken.
Ive recorded a clip of how fast it can be done, but this forum has a size limit on files and I dont want to upload it elsewhere.

(Apoc) #13

I think i read somewhere that the average time to master a skill is around 1000 hours…or was it 2000, anyway im not sure if waiting that long before making obvious changes is a great idea, especially when we have the great oportunity of a closed pre-alpha to test stuff.

There are a couple of things that need doing that dont really need a debate or waiting for because they are just common sense or bugs;
1 -Lower default zoom, with a higher zoom toggle
- Im pretty sure this is standard in most games with snipers. And makes alot more sense with DB’s mid range size.

2 -Fix the scpe bug, where you scope and the accuracy is that of an unscoped shot for about half a second to a second
- Apart from the obvious reason to fix it: Its a bug. It should also be fixed for consistency purposes, and because it punishes players for having quick reflexes. And its not like its on purpose, if there was meant to be more of a delay, then you would make the scoping in process longer, you dont just let it scope in, then have an invisible timer that no one knows about before your shot is accurate.

(tangoliber) #14

Do you consider it good if the sniper has a convenient line of sight to the objective on close quarter maps? (Such as in Brink’s Resort map, covering the bridge objective from the inside of the defender’s base.) Or do you think that sort of design should be avoided?

On one hand, I liked the presence of those sniper spots in pubs, because other than the EZ-Nade, it was the only thing in Brink that would force the other team adapt. It creates the need for a sniper-killer role, sort of like in Tribes, where you need Light Defense to harass the Heavy Offense. But I can see how it could be frustrating in a really evenly-matched comp game.

(INF3RN0) #15

[QUOTE=Apoc;416968]I think i read somewhere that the average time to master a skill is around 1000 hours…or was it 2000, anyway im not sure if waiting that long before making obvious changes is a great idea, especially when we have the great oportunity of a closed pre-alpha to test stuff.

There are a couple of things that need doing that dont really need a debate or waiting for because they are just common sense or bugs;
1 -Lower default zoom, with a higher zoom toggle
- Im pretty sure this is standard in most games with snipers. And makes alot more sense with DB’s mid range size.

2 -Fix the scpe bug, where you scope and the accuracy is that of an unscoped shot for about half a second to a second
- Apart from the obvious reason to fix it: Its a bug. It should also be fixed for consistency purposes, and because it punishes players for having quick reflexes. And its not like its on purpose, if there was meant to be more of a delay, then you would make the scoping in process longer, you dont just let it scope in, then have an invisible timer that no one knows about before your shot is accurate.[/QUOTE]

I’ve already played with a few NA players who are well-known at being top snipers in the games they play, and I thought they used the sniper to the effect it should be used. It obviously works best in 8v8 pub, but I was finding myself getting quickscoped (or slow scoped) in our pugs at med-close range. If I wasn’t dying from a headshot or them swapping to 2ndary after the quick-unscope technique we discovered, then I would still be missing a good chunk of health. All I am saying is that it has to be kept in mind that this is just a new mechanic to be mastered and I understand you want it to be more like ETQW. I still think that it has a lot of potential to be just as good as anything else the more people practice using it out of it’s comfort zone, but that’s going to take practice the same as any other weapon. I’m not sure what your experiencing, but the people I know just zoom and then zoom+shoot for fast unscope which results in a 100% accurate shot. It’s just the quickscope we were used to that has the accuracy of a noscope.

(Apoc) #16

Well i like to think of myself as a sniper also, and as a result have been playing sniper alot in this game. I know they arent underpowered at the moment, nor are they overpowered. But they are just a little broken on the mechanic side, it wont have that much of an influence on balance, and by no means do my proposed changes have the potential to make an op killing machine.
As i said, just less zoom on the default scope. This is just common sense, and just makes the sniper into a normal sniper rifle.
And im not saying bring in quickscoping, this game has a delay to get into scope(not much, but more than the likes of etqw, similar to the CoD:BO2 sniper (not insta scope, more like a half second delay getting into it), it has this delay already, so quickscoping in its pure form is out of the question. All im saying is that when it has gone into scope after that animation delay, shots should be at full accuracy, instead of having an invisible timer counting down before you can shoot accurately, despite the fact your in scope.

Surely it makes sense to fix the bugs and issues first, then focus on balancing it after?
To me trying to balance a weapon that hasnt had all its bugs fixed and obvious things changed is kinda pointless, since they will be changed anyway(or should be) afterwhich youll have to rebalance again.

(MrEd) #17

I really like this detailed discussion of specific game features. It’s the kind of thing that can be so easy to skip over when implementing so many different features and when the range of play styles on the dev team means only 1 or 2 ever really try the covert ops regularly. This is exactly the kind of thing this Closed Alpha is invaluable for and hopefully now w’ll be able to use this feedback along with the stats we’ve been recording to give the cvops another pass.

My personal feelings are:

  1. Not being able to break out of SR_01 when cocking is definitely something we need to address. It leaves the player vulnerable for too long.
  2. The scoping is still a bit too first pass and doesn’t give enoug feedback on spread changes or reload state.
(.FROST.) #18

If you are talking about trl, then I think it’s actually 10.000hrs*, although you are not a real master then; but you are reasonable good at something.

*Doing something for ~4 years, 8hrs a day; weekends off. Basically like studying something(wich may take you even longer actually). And after you got your diploma you are still nowhere near of being a master; except if you are a genius of course.

PS: Just a bit of off topic wisecracking, don’t kill me for that.

(murka) #19

In my opinion sniper2 is better than sniper1. It’s quite easy to miss the first shot especially with faster movement so the time it takes to get the second shot, you’ll be dead. Sniper2 has awesome RoF and thus feels similar to W:ET sniper. You have to compensate the recoil properly and make every possible shot count. You can nearly empty your clip by the time sniper2 is ready to take the second shot. Also, while you keep hitting the enemy, they can’t aim properly because of hit feedback so you’re making yourself harder to hit.

The zoom is indeed too high for current map sizes.

Covie2 secondary does feel a tad underpowered for finishing targets off. Also the class lacks anything useful to the team compared to covie1 which has very useful short range wallhacks.

(INF3RN0) #20

[QUOTE=Apoc;417026]
Surely it makes sense to fix the bugs and issues first, then focus on balancing it after?
To me trying to balance a weapon that hasnt had all its bugs fixed and obvious things changed is kinda pointless, since they will be changed anyway(or should be) afterwhich youll have to rebalance again.[/QUOTE]

I can’t say I’ve noticed the delayed inaccuracy, just a longer zoom-in animation. If you try to immediately shoot while in the zoom-in animation it’s not accurate, but it doesn’t really break the usefulness of the weapon. I do think the zoom needs adjustable levels, otherwise I just think it works in a way that forces you to pre-scope more often. I’m just always skeptical about weapon balancing the sniper rifle in games because it tends to separate out player skill the most effectively. An example would be in a recent game I was testing in Alpha where the sniper rifle seemed completely weak/useless in it’s design mechanics, until a professional COD4 sniper used it and literally carried his team to win the world championship. I’d say start with the zoom levels first and give it some more time before anything else should be changed.