Snipers

[shirosae]

Not entirely. My argument was that railgun (and sniper rifles) weren’t intended to be used trough the quickscope.

Which has the sole effect of making close quarters sniping possible. Removing quickscopes has no effect other than removing close sniping. It’s not useful in any other situation.

Exactly. And the up-close no-spread head shots clearly are working too well.

Your evidence is compelling, show me more.

Nope it indeed doesn’t. Nor does calling it a perfectly valid alternative to joining in with the ramo-tech hoarde justify it’s existence.

So we’ve established that calling close quarters sniping names is entirely irrelevant to its existence? Awesome, now maybe we can actually discuss the mechanics instead of telling me I might as well use hacks.

I didn’t say that. I said you are (and you are) using them as a means to justify exploits. You might as well use them to justify hacks.

Even if we assume for the moment that it’s okay to call quick-scoped sniping an exploit, your statement is false. I am not justifying ‘exploits’. At most, I am justifying one exploit that somehow hasn’t created some degenerate build overpowering all others. Presumably the magic balance fairies have been holding the hoarde of imba railgun teams from overrunning ETQW.

It’s lucky that we’ve established that calling indoors sniping names has no weight in this discussion, right? Otherwise, you comparing it to hacks might have some arguing power.

Definitely. Lucky there’s a myriad of other ways to play that don’t involve exploits.

Yes, I mean you can take a Lacerator with some other less combat effective class, or you can take an Obliterator, or a Hyperblaster, or um…

That would depend on the range of engagement. And I honestly don’t care how much time you spent perfectioning the exploit just like I don’t care how much time someone spends in trying to jump trough a wall or door to get to the objective before anyone else can get there.

Yes, because the ability to put your cursor over someone’s head and push the mouse button is a skill completely on par with glitching through a door, and not at all related to the normal shooting mechanics of putting your mouse over someone’s head and pushing a mouse button.

Glad we established that calling indoors sniping names has no bearing on the discussion.

Six spots seems about enough yeah.

So let’s go over the Infiltrator playlist for the last objective on Salvage:

1. Camp six spots for the last third of the map.
2. Be sure that whilst you’re camping those spots, you’re also ready to backstab any engineers disarming down at the other end of the corridor.
3. Hope that the other team is inattentive enough to notice you going on a ‘backstabbing spree’.

At least, yes. With a bit more tactical insight and experience you get to be useful throughout the entire game! Imagine!

Yes, or I could swap to rambo-tech and be about a billion times more useful by not spending all my time running between the extreme-long-range and extreme-close-range distances at which my skills are useful.

[darthmob]

Someone is acting like he was a few times too often on the wrong side of someone’s Railgun in close quarter combat. And the limitation is the obviously quite long recharge time. Similar to the obliterator / RL.

You don’t have to like it, but you have to appreciate someone getting good at it. That’s what makes multiplayer versus actual human beings interesting.

[Ragoo]

shirosae is 100% right here.

Killing with Railgun indoors requires more skill than killing with the Hyperblaster. And you may argue that the Hyperblaster is not 1-shot… but that would be stupid. So do you want Hyperblaster out because it’s too powerful?

Anyway, both Railgun and Hyperblaster are limited in wars for a reason. And most people on pubs don’t run around indoors and quick-scope kill you because they don’t have the skills to do so. IF something is overpowered about Railgun, it is the instant switch to blaster.

Personally I think it was soo much fun playing Railgun indoors and I (playing on vanilla pubs only ) never felt like I was overpowered and I think every kill feels like skill…

(don’t care if my arguments are bad but I love the Railgun quick-scope stuff and want to see it in BRINK )

[tokamak]

Yes, because the ability to put your cursor over someone’s head and push the mouse button is a skill completely on par with glitching through a door, and not at all related to the normal shooting mechanics of putting your mouse over someone’s head and pushing a mouse button.

It doesn’t matter whether it’s on par or not. The fact that some exploits require some practice do not make them valid additions to the gameplay. Right now they’re rather detrimental to it.

There is a REASON a railgun has a huge spread unscoped and quickscoping is nothing but an unintentional way around it.

[QUOTE=darthmob;197721]Someone is acting like he was a few times too often on the wrong side of someone’s Railgun in close quarter combat. And the limitation is the obviously quite long recharge time. Similar to the obliterator / RL.

You don’t have to like it, but you have to appreciate someone getting good at it. That’s what makes multiplayer versus actual human beings interesting.[/QUOTE]

Not really, I find it a mild nuisance. It is and will always remain away to get around the way the sniper rifle has been balanced in this game. 0% spread in a mid-jump should never be possible.

Personally I find that Raven Shield has the best spread handling. Spread doesn’t quickly jump to different percentages, it gradually decreases (and instantly increases if you make quick movements) depending on what you’re doing and on the properties of the gun, some guns have faster spread reduction than others. This way the more time you take for a shot, the less spread you will have.

I’m not saying it should be taken as far in Brink. But I definitely think that introducing a gradual spread adjustment adds allot to the tactical gameplay here.

[shirosae]

It doesn’t matter whether it’s on par or not. The fact that some exploits require some practice do not make them valid additions to the gameplay.

It doesn’t matter whether quick-scoped railgunning is on par with normal gameplay, because it’s an exploit and therefore not on par with normal gameplay. Well okay then.

Right now they’re rather detrimental to it.

You’ve still provided absolutely no evidence that quick-scoping has a detrimental effect on the game.

There is a REASON a railgun has a huge spread unscoped and quickscoping is nothing but an unintentional way around it.

There’s also a reason that the pure system isn’t finished, and a reason animation interpolation doesn’t run in unlocked frames, and a reason the autodownload doesn’t support megatextures. Having a reason for something doesn’t make that something the best way of doing things, nor does it make any alternative automatically invalid.

[tokamak]

You’ve still provided absolutely no evidence that quick-scoping has a detrimental effect on the game.

It doesn’t matter whether quick-scoped railgunning is on par with normal gameplay, because it’s an exploit and therefore not on par with normal gameplay. Well okay then.

:stroggbanana: I’m glad your posts sort themselves out, saves me some effort.

[shirosae]

:stroggbanana: I’m glad your posts sort themselves out, saves me some effort.

In today’s lesson, we explore the concept of reductio ad absurdum.

Your entire argument against quickscope railgunning involves saying the word ‘exploit’ over and over, and declaring by fiat that it’s deterimental to the game. You’ve refused to provide any evidence or logical argument to back up either claim.

You’ve failed, your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me etc

[darthmob]

[QUOTE=tokamak;197728]I’m not saying it should be taken as far in Brink. But I definitely think that introducing a gradual spread adjustment adds allot to the tactical gameplay here.[/QUOTE]In most cases tactical equals to slow and personally I don’t like that.

Did you play CoD 1 / 2 / 5? As far as I know the bolt action rifles have no spread when in iron sight as well and it does not matter if you are jumping. It offers some great possibilities for frags as seen in various movies and I would say it does not make the game less tactical (or slow). It brings some twitch skills into the franchise that you would normally only find in games like Q3.

[tokamak]

Snipers just shouldn’t go around in corridors doing strafe jumps around corners and headshotting everyone with zero spread while for every other gun the spread jump miles high for trying the same thing.

Again, the snipers in QW had a huge spread unscoped for a reason, namely, preventing exactly the scenario described above. It’s either the huge spread or the waving scope, the quick scope gets neither of both. It’s the very definition of the word ‘exploit’.

Taking a sniper rifle means you’ve assumed a certain a role. Just look at you, that gun is excellent at long range, great at medium range and now you’re complaining that without the quickscope exploit you can’t even use it in close quarters combat because then it wouldn’t be better then the assault rifle or even the friggin shotgun!

It’s a mistake that should have been adressed in patch 1.1. You’re lucky that the trick only got discovered and widespread way after SD stopped patching the game or we wouldn’t even be having this discussion in the first place.

[Florisjuh]

Taking a sniper rifle means you’ve assumed a certain a role. Just look at you, that gun is excellent at long range, great at medium range and now you’re complaining that without the quickscope exploit you can’t even use it in close quarters combat because then it wouldn’t be better then the assault rifle or even the friggin shotgun!

I’ll play the game as I damn please thank you very much.

It’s a mistake that should have been adressed in patch 1.1. You’re lucky that the trick only got discovered and widespread way after SD stopped patching the game or we wouldn’t even be having this discussion in the first place.

Yeah I’m sure SD never heard of this gameplay element located in every game which features sniper rifles, like the ET:QW open beta where it was already getting used often, especially by the clan players. Obviously, only until grubs got their ass kicked by a skilled player wielding a railgun in close combat the whine ensued…

[RosOne]

Snipers just shouldn’t go around in corridors doing strafe jumps around corners and headshotting everyone with zero spread while for every other gun the spread jump miles high for trying the same thing.

Why shouldn’t snipers do that? Cause in real life they don’t or what’s the logic behind that?

Taking a sniper rifle means you’ve assumed a certain a role. Just look at you, that gun is excellent at long range, great at medium range and now you’re complaining that without the quickscope exploit you can’t even use it in close quarters combat because then it wouldn’t be better then the assault rifle or even the friggin shotgun!

That’s a role you are assuming. If SD decided they wanted to call the Infiltrator a Technican would you go around healing people with a railgun? It’s just a game, it’s just a name… there is no should or shouldn’t. SD want to make it fun and they sure know why they are doing things the way they want to. Let’s wait for them to finish the game first, shall we?

PS ET:QW/Brink is not Raven Shield

[tokamak]

[QUOTE=RosOne;197764]Why shouldn’t snipers do that? Cause in real life they don’t or what’s the logic behind that?
[/QUOTE]

That would be one reason. Not letting the sniper rifle the best all-round gun in the game would be another one.

But yes, let’s wait until they finish the game. Until then I’ll be all too happy to point this glitch out so they can fix it if they ever planned to create something that resembles the sniper rifle and has the same spread vs swaying scope mechanic.

[QUOTE=Florisjuh;197761]I’ll play the game as I damn please thank you very much.
[/QUOTE]

That’s something the door glitchers can say as well. Nobody should be prohibited from using a sniper in close quarters. Just not with the zero-spread it has now.

[shirosae]

That would be one reason. Not letting the sniper rifle the best all-round gun in the game would be another one.

Except that even with quickscope still in it isn’t the best all-round gun in the game.

With the lacerator you can walk into a room and kill four people if you catch them right. With a railgun, you will get one and only one, if you do it right and get a little lucky, which you don’t every time.

Unlike the lacerator and hyperblaster and obliterator, you do not walk into a room with the railgun and splatter the walls with multiple enemies. You pick a target, move in, get the kill and retreat quickly because the gun won’t let you do any more than that.

[tokamak]

You pick a target, move in, get the kill and retreat quickly.

Indeed. I don’t think I could express how lame this really is any better.

[shirosae]

Indeed. I don’t think I could express how lame this really is any better.

No, see… you left out the second half of my sentence; ‘because the gun won’t let you do any more than that.’.

Quotemining doesn’t get you anywhere. You’ve still failed to provide any evidence that quickscoping has any detrimental effect on ETQW.

[kamikazee]

All this talk and nobody actually explained how hard it is to pull off quick-scoping and what its disadvantages are.

Oh, and I call something an exploit when something can be done that is thought by the majority of players to be impossible, takes no special effort and has no disadvantages.

[tokamak]

You’ve still failed to provide any evidence that quickscoping has any detrimental effect on ETQW.

One guy getting easy kills by not having any spread is how it’s detrimental to the gameplay.

Oh, and I call something an exploit when something can be done that is thought by the majority of players to be impossible, takes no special effort and has no disadvantages.

Then we have a winner here. The majority doesn’t know about this glitch, apart from being able to quickly press the right mouse button before shooting it takes no special skill, and there’s no disadvantage at all because spread is no longer an issue.

[darthmob]

Seems like even Counterstrike has a glitched sniper rifle as seen in the beginning of this movie. You can’t tell me that fast switching to pistol and back after firing is an intended replacement for getting a new bullet into the chamber.

[shirosae]

All this talk and nobody actually explained how hard it is to pull off quick-scoping and what its disadvantages are.

Okay then. To quickscope, you scope with a sniper rifle or railgun, and quickly fire immediately after you start zooming. With default controls it’s a rapid right click, left click. What happens is that your aim becomes scope-accurate as soon as you start scoping, so your shot goes wherever your cursor was pointing, bypassing the normal huge unscoped sniper inaccuracy.

Normally you’d then pull out your blaster, in case you only scored a bodyshot, in which case you need to get another two headshots for a kill.

Quickscoping is utterly, utterly useless unless you’re in close quarters combat and can time your shot perfectly once you put your cursor over your enemies face.

So let’s be absolutely clear about this. Doing a quickscope shot is very, very easy. Making a quickscope headshot up close during combat is very, very difficult.

Oh, and I call something an exploit when something can be done that is thought by the majority of players to be impossible, takes no special effort and has no disadvantages.

In that case, close quarters quickscope sniping doesn’t qualify, since it does take special effort and has the disadvantages of not giving you a second freaking shot before you’re dead.

Then we have a winner here. The majority doesn’t know about this glitch, apart from being able to quickly press the right mouse button before shooting it takes no special skill, and there’s no disadvantage at all because spread is no longer an issue.

Wrong. It’s actually quite hard to run into a combat situation in close quarters, put your dancing enemy’s head into your crosshairs whilst he’s lining you up and make your one single shot a headshot, or a bodyshot followed by two blaster headshots before he gets his three headshots with a full auto weapon.

One guy getting easy kills by not having any spread is how it’s detrimental to the gameplay.

And if close quarters sniping actually was anything like one guy getting easy kills by not having any spread I’d agree with you. The problem - and what you don’t seem to want to accept - is that it’s not one guy getting easy kills at all.

Seems like even Counterstrike has a glitched sniper rifle as seen in the beginning of this movie. You can’t tell me that fast switching to pistol and back after firing is an intended replacement for getting a new bullet into the chamber.

Is it significantly different to how it worked in CS 1.5? I didn’t really mind it back then since the bonus wasn’t that much really, although it annoyed me that it was a bonus for such a skill-less activation. And I preferred DoD anyway

[tokamak]

[QUOTE=shirosae;197794]Wrong. It’s actually quite hard to run into a combat situation in close quarters, put your dancing enemy’s head into your crosshairs whilst he’s lining you up and make your one single shot a headshot, or a bodyshot followed by two blaster headshots before he gets his three headshots with a full auto weapon.
[/QUOTE]

Okay granted, it can be difficult, but that still doesn’t make it balanced. The quick scope tactic makes the combat highly bipolar. The battle can end in one shot, this means that only the quickscoper decides how this battle will end. You can’t kill him before he has made his shot, if he hits, he has won, if he misses, then he’s likely to have lost. This is different for other guys; by using assault rifles or shotguns at least both sides will have a chance, this means that both persons will have an influence on the outcome of the battle depending on both their skills and not just that of one person.

Quickscoping might not be overpowered or anything, but the fun in it certainly only lies by the one wielding the sniper rifle, and not the one at the receiving end who has no control whatsoever.

Another thing is that, without it, no sane person would ever bring a sniper to a close quarters fight. It would simply have way too much spread to make it a reliable weapon. This is the way SD balanced the sniper out of the close quarters and back to the longer ranges of engagement. Quickscoping is and will always be a way around of this balancing feature.