SMG unbalance

(Pog'S) #1

I’ve played quite often ET to realize that SD sacrificied authenticity and historical accuracy to balance sake :
SMG damages are both equal [18] evenhough .45ACP used by the M1A1 Thompson is a heavier bullet than 9mm Parabellum used by the MP40.

However it seems that SD respected the accurate fact that the MP40 has a greater practical range [100-200m] than the thompson [50m].
It seems that this is the only setting that differenciates the 2 weapons in ET. So it seems that Axis players have an edge over Allies players. SD correct me if i’m wrong…

This disavantage for Allies players seems even improved when Axis players reach Light Weapons Level 3 : at this point, Axis players are nearly unapproachable. Almost no spray and deadly accuracy even at 100 meters or more.

Furthermore, mp40 seems more accurate that FG42 at long range. I may be a bad aimer but i almost always loose any fight at long range against M40 with a unscoped fg42 or Thompson, especially true on Fuel Dump accross the bridge.

Again i may be mistaken by my poor aiming capabilities so tell me if you experience the same feeling.

Plus, SD seems to have made everything to balance the FG42 with SMG at short range : less damage but greater rate of fire but i think that unscoped at long range FG42 is not a match versus a MP40.

Generally speaking i think that all SMGs (MP40, Thomspon, and Sten) have a far to greater range. Rifles are thus not interesting to play with as it seems you don’t get superior long range accuracy and get slower rate of fire.

If i’m right on the above points, Is there a way to alter these settings to rebalance the game ?

(SCDS_reyalP) #2

I think you are mistaken. In RTCW, the SMGs had different spreads. In ET, in my experience, they do not.

I suggest
/devmap mapname
/give all
/g_debugbullets 1

See this thread
http://www.splashdamage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2490&highlight=unscoped+rifle
for info about the unscoped rifles. Treat them like a shotgun and you are OK.

One more thing to think about. The SMGs and pistols are accurate at long range, but do less damage as you get far away.

edit:
You need the game source to change these things. Unless you are special like shrub, you don’t get it.

(Pog'S) #3

interesting spread :slight_smile:
Anyway it show the mp40 is far more accurate than rifles at long range : which is completely silly.

(Butchah) #4

i can hit about the same with thompson and mp40 from far away only thing i notice is thompson is faster i think :moo:

(Pog'S) #5

weird casue i find that i’m more accurate with mp40 at long range. I also have the impression that thompson is fires faster but i think that the sound is creating it. It’s more psychological than real i think.

(sock) #6

The MP40 and Thompson are identical in every aspect except one thing … the sound is different. The fire rate, ammo, spread pattern, everything is the same. Obviously this is not historically correct but this is a game of fun. Otherwise everyone would want to use a MP40 as they were generally a better weapon during WW2.

Sock
:moo:

(Stottyd) #7

The MP40 and Thompson are identical in every aspect except one thing … the sound is different.

I like placebos, they make me feel good :stuck_out_tongue:

({}Yojimbo) #8

When I play medic and pick up a gun from the other team I always get the feeling that the other team’s gun (MP40 or Thompson) is better. Very strange placebo effect :smiley:

(Mr. Chris) #9

MP40 should have a higher ROF with less damage while the thompson should do more damage and keep the default ROF

(Emon) #10

I sometimes think I do better with the MP40 because I like the feel and sound of it more, but that is all psychologic. I also pick up the German counterparts of my Allied weapon to get higher on topshots. :slight_smile:

(Dyne) #11

all i can say is that i do think the machine guns are too acurate on long range. Outside, wind, your moving, your scared and shaking, you wouldn’t hit a white whale on black background from a long distance (ok maybe you would but you know what i mean).

I also think the FG40 sucks. It’s weak, the zoom loses it’s auto fire. garand is (sniper) is much better and stronger. I suggest you use sten or FG 42 untill you reach l 2 or 3 and then take the garand so the kick back while in zoom isn’t so strong anymore. Also if your aim is good the garand can be used as a railgun in quake just run around and aim for the chest shoot very fast bam dead, i usually kill people with thompsons like this in close range combat aswell. Unless they really hit me good and fast in the head. But people teand to aim for your chest anyway. You’d be surprised how easy you can kill people with a garand.

(ShanK-fOO) #12

The weapon balance is all FUBAR, imho. I’m waiting for a simple mod that applies the KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) principle to the weapon balance:

  1. Basics:
  • Axis vs. Allied weapons: same accuracy, same damage, same capacity.
  • Headshots without helmet = 75 damage.
  1. Pistols:
  • Deal the base pistol bullet damage (suggestion: 20) at any range.
  • Medium Rate Of Fire.
  • Large Spread.
  • Small spread penalty while firing on the run.
  • Headshots do 0 damage thru helmets, but remove the helmet (pistol ammo don’t punch thru helmets).
  • No ‘kick’ when firing (see rifles).
  1. SMGs/Stens:
  • Deal base pistol bullet damage (since they fire pistol rounds) at any range.
  • High Rate Of Fire. (same as it is now)
  • Medium Spread.
  • Medium spread penalty while firing on the run.
  • Headshots do 0 damage thru helmets, but remove the helmet (pistol ammo don’t punch thru helmets).
  1. Rifles:
  • Deal 2x pistol bullet damage (since they fire high-power rifle rounds) at any range.
  • Low Rate Of Fire.
  • Low Spread.
  • High spread penalty while firing on the run.
  • Headshots do base damage thru helmets and remove the helmet.
  • Scoped headshots are an instant kill if no helmet.
  • View ‘kicks’ when firing (like the pistol).
  1. FG42:
  • Deals 2x pistol damage (just like a Rifle) at any range.
  • High Rate Of Fire (unscoped).
  • Medium Spread (same as SMGs).
  • High spread penalty while firing on the run.
  • Headshots do base damage thru helmets and remove the helmet.
  • Scoped headshots are an instant kill if no helmet.
  • CAN’T USE UNTIL LVL 2 LIGHT WEAPONS.
  • View ‘kicks’ when firing.
  1. Mobile MG42
  • Deals 2x pistol damage (just like a Rifle) at any range.
  • Super High Rate Of Fire.
  • Medium Spread when prone+bipod…
  • …High spread if kneeling
  • Can’t be fired while standing or moving.
  • Headshots do base damage thru helmets and remove the helmet.
  • Kicks like a mule unless prone+bipod.
(Yogota) #13

Actually I consider the Thompson feeling WAY weaker and with a WAY slower rate of fire… At battles Thompson vs MP40, even against shitz0rs while me being Eng I normally Die or get seriously injured…

(SCDS_reyalP) #14

ShanK-fOO
That would comletely change the feel and balance of the game. It looks like you more of a realism game. The SD devs have clearly stated that ET is not a realism game. To me, gameplay is the most important factor. If you want a super ‘realistic’ game, try something like True Combat for Q3. There is also supposedly an RTCW mod of this general style in the works, although problems other RTCW conversions faced, I don’t hold high odds of it becoming popular.

For myself, I like the SMGs as a basic weapon. Yes the accuracy of single shots is unrealistic, but it rewards skill, and the damage is low enough where combat is not completely decided by who got the first shot. I think the SMG gunning from RTCW has proven itself to an exciting style of gameplay, and for the most part, ET continues that. The current helmet and headshot behaviour rewards skill, while still not giving one shot kills.

My only gripes with ET is the unscoped rifles, which have so much random aim at all times that they do not reward skill very much, and the fact that garand is at such a disadvantage compared to the k43.

In any case, I highly doubt SD is going to rebalance any the weapons this late in the game, never mind all of them. Given the limited availability of the source, no one else is likely to either.

Making a fun, fair and interesting weapon balance is not easy.

(ShanK-fOO) #15

reyalP:

Agreed. If anyone remembers Subspace, that game was super-customizable. If you tried to make a custom server with modded ships, it was hell to get the weapon balance right. Any shooting game has many of the same factors involved with its weapons: damage per hit, rate of fire, accuracy, and velocity are the main ones.

I think can understand SD’s dilemma with weapon balance; here’s my take.

You’re developing this game. You have a baseline weapon balance to start from (RTCW) but there’s issues.

Your game has much bigger maps, so the ranges of fights are larger. That ends up making the spread of the most-used weapon too big to hit anything at range… disturbing (who will want to buy this game?). So you tighten up the spread for the SMGs.

New Problem. All the bullet weapons are instant-hit hitscan weapons where the bullets basically have infinite velocity (so at least you don’t have to worry about bullet velocity). The problem is that hitscan is an apporximation for bullet behavior. It’s a fine model for close quarters, but it becomes more of a problem if people are fighting at long range: since there’s no travel time for the bullets it’s just as easy to kill at long range as short. Plus you want to have 50 players playing, like that other WWII that’s all the rage, and you don’t want to overstress the netcode. So you lower the SMG firing rate.

Still Problems. You made the SMGs a little too accurate. Long range kills are still too easy! You have tons of other work to do on the other stuff in the game, including the whole single-player AI and levels and … holy crap you have a lot of work … you just want to be done with this conceptual stuff and get back to coding. So you just hack it: long range smg shots do reduced damage.

That’s bad form IMHO. You should avoid at all costs adding a new degree of freedom in weapon balance; Instead you’ve just added TWO: cutoff range for reduces damage and the reduced damage factor itself. Instead of (A x B x C) different possibilities, you now have (A x B x C x D x E).

Oops, we are also adding rifles into the game. Common sense would dictate that they are more accurate than the SMGs, but we also want features like silencers and shot-cup grenade launchers and maybe even bayonets. So we ignore common sense and put the rifle accuracy at some arbitrary value. Hey, at least it’s more accurate than the Mauser from the first game, right?

Wait what about this paratrooper gun?

Oh crap, they canceled the project. Let’s just get the thing to the point where it’s playable and get it out the door.

And there you have it… mistakes were made and corrections were attempted, but in the end what we have is somewhat haphazard weapon balance tweaks for a free game.

(Kamel) #16

it’s gotta be psychological, because the thompson has the crappiest sound ever IMO… it’s just a low-pitched thud, lol – sounds nothing like a real thompson. with the sound mod though, i fight 10x better with the thompson. i can’t play with that mod though, the hectic air strikes totally throw my game off, but hey, it sure sounds like real war, lol.

if it isn’t broke, dont fix it… some of the sounds from the original rtcw sound a heck of a lot better than those of ET.

([gadget]) #17

then go play rtcw
i like the sound the fun the gameplay and all other aspekts of et
its a kind of patched rtcw
better in every way
and now flame me

(xero) #18

just ur mind playing tricks on u :banana:

:moo:

(weasel) #19

I used to play better with MP-40 than Thompson, but lately it’s begun to even out. I guess I’ve gotten used to thinking they’re the same.