Smart


(tokamak) #161

Raven Shield didn’t have jumping at all, yet the movement required a lot of skill because you need to know how far you could traverse were before what amount of risk you run into. In other words, you had to THINK your way through the maps.

[QUOTE=Crytiqal;381179]Seriously, movement is as much part of a shooter as shooting, otherwise you could play shooting ducks.
Now that the movement takes zero skill (YES, pressing SHIFT and looking where you want to go == 0 skill in my book) means part of the game (challenge and skill) has been removed.[/QUOTE]

You only need to press ‘R’ to reload your weapon. It’s completely devoid of skill!


(DarkangelUK) #162

Your question seems to have a lack of understanding. ‘Magic fps’ did exist in Q3, but didn’t effect standard gameplay… same for RtCW and W:ET. There are no standard game swaying jumps in those games that weren’t possible for those that didn’t have an ‘magic fps’ set… if you know of any then please enlighten me. Those that used it for finding skillful jumps were specifically tricking and not playing standard games, most of the medium to difficult tricks required several attempts at execution, regardless of fps set, the rest was stuff open to everyone regardless of cvars… the oasis wallhop, jumping into the fuel dump, hopping down slopes.

Swaying off course again are we. You have no argument against the system so you’ll attack the fans of it instead… grow up. And yeah boohoo indeed, the game died on the system that would benefit from it while having no affect on consoles at all… again arguing for the sake of arguing. Your exaggeration at the start is so exaggerated, it doesn’t actually exist… unless you can provide examples instead pulling more bull**** out of thin air to try and create a point?

And there have been countless that have, but we’ll just ignore them again to satisfy your view? Your argument of not requiring a movement system such as this to be challenging in a shooter would’ve worked if Brink didn’t die a horrible death on PC.

[QUOTE=tokamak;381188]
You only need to press ‘R’ to reload your weapon. It’s completely devoid of skill![/QUOTE]
lol you’re helping his argument here.


(tokamak) #163

The value of those that have elaborate movement lies in the scope of freedom that is offered to the player, not in that they’re just hard to pull off.

Another thing I find hilarious is that these games tend to have the easiest kind of aiming possible. Suddenly there shouldn’t be any complications there as that gets in the way of skill measurement.


(DarkangelUK) #164

[QUOTE=tokamak;381190]The value of those that have elaborate movement lies in the scope of freedom that is offered to the player, not in that they’re just hard to pull off.

Another thing I find hilarious is that these games tend to have the easiest kind of aiming possible. Suddenly there shouldn’t be any complications there as that gets in the way of skill measurement.[/QUOTE]
Which games would that be?


(tokamak) #165

Quake III and Counter Strike


(INF3RN0) #166

[QUOTE=tokamak;381190]
Another thing I find hilarious is that these games tend to have the easiest kind of aiming possible. Suddenly there shouldn’t be any complications there as that gets in the way of skill measurement.[/QUOTE]

ET games have the easiest aim? Or is it the truest aim. Recoil is the best way to balance out power with gun control, but doesn’t really change the aim function. Adding complicated gun spread for example doesn’t add skill, just changes the method of aim. I find that ET style aim is the hardest to be consistent with even in it’s conceptual simplicity, while most other systems available allow for random luck to have a much higher success rate.


(DarkangelUK) #167

But aren’t you a fan of games with all hitscan weapons and artificial spread added to give the illusion of difficulty?


(H0RSE) #168

I’ve already made my point multiple times, yet it still fails to get through to you guys. Not that it matters - I will always have these views and you will have yours. Don’t care either way if you see my point of view or not, since the only person who I care what they think about my views, is me.

And there have been countless that have, but we’ll just ignore them again to satisfy your view?

Your point? The argument was that movement is as much a part of a shooter as shooting. If this was the case, all shoooters would rely on an intricate movement system. The fact that here are many that support only basic movement, yet still provide a challenge, kills his whole argument. So about the “countless” games that involve skillful movement systems? WHat about them? When needing challenging/skillful movement applies to all shooters, then you can get back to me.


(tokamak) #169

Cheers for that question, I hope I can explain this because it really tends to get over people’s head for years now.

There’s a difference between fidelity and difficulty. I suspect you like the ‘difficult’ movement not because it’s prestigious but because it offers a player a lot of freedom to act within a game. It’s the decisions to make certain movements (out of the countless ones that are possible) that is rewarding rather than the execution itself.

But correct me if I’m wrong, would be easier if I was then I can treat you and Inferno as the same stance.

I like spread with high fidelity. Brink’s spread is artificial as you can exert very little influence on it. Raven Shield has a much higher fidelity, the shooting is still pretty simple, but it’s that wide field of tension between spread and movement what makes it so rewarding and where skill is determined. It’s determining what kind of movement you need vs what amount of spread you pay for it that determines your advantage vs the opponents.

In that way I regard movement by itself as well. I think the decision to make a certain move should weigh much heavier than the execution of that move. If someone has a brilliant, well thought-out idea, then he shouldn’t be hampered by finding out the right way to finger his keyboard. After all, you’re playing a video game, it’s a battle of ideas.

There’s a place for cognitive-based shooters with a deadly, point-precise ballet rockets, I like those as well, but in my eyes they’re a completely different sub-genre compared to shooters like ET, and the attempts at letting that genre encroach on the tactical shooter are somewhat harmful if they actually had a chance.


(DarkangelUK) #170

[QUOTE=H0RSE;381197]
Your point? The argument was that movement is as much a part of a shooter as shooting. If this was the case, all shoooters would rely on an intricate movement system. The fact that here are many that support only basic movement, yet still provide a challenge, kills his whole argument. So about the “countless” games that involve skillful movement systems? WHat about them? When needing challenging/skillful movement applies to all shooters, then you can get back to me.[/QUOTE]
That’s funny, because you’re going from the extreme view that they shouldn’t require any movement skill to them at all. The fact that there are many that have advanced movement and still provide a challenge keeps the whole argument alive… and the fact that said games are still alive today, some of which purely based on the movement system helps even more. Which solid shooters with basic movement beyond CS are alive today?

I can think of several whose lifespans have been extended due to it’s movement system alone because that’s an added dimension to the game that can breathe new life into it… please tell me why this is a bad thing again? Again, you’re on console… that kills this whole argument.


(H0RSE) #171

doesn’t matter - that’s not what the argument was. The argument was that a challenging movement system is as important in a shooter as shooting, not if the system can add longevitey to a game or not.

Again, you’re on console… that kills this whole argument.

I grew up playing nothing but PC, and only in recent years have I played console. My favorite MP of all time RTCW, second is W:ET. Not all people who play console have zero exposure to PC gaming…

Besides, all the things you deem “impossible” on console, like strafe-jumping and such, are indeed possible.


(DarkangelUK) #172

[QUOTE=tokamak;381200]Cheers for that question, I hope I can explain this because it really tends to get over people’s head for years now.

There’s a difference between fidelity and difficulty. I suspect you like the ‘difficult’ movement not because it’s prestigious but because it offers a player a lot of freedom to act within a game. It’s the decisions to make certain movements (out of the countless ones that are possible) that is rewarding rather than the execution itself.

But correct me if I’m wrong, would be easier if I was then I can treat you and Inferno as the same stance.[/quote]
Yeah there is a difference between fidelity and difficulty, fidelity is being loyal to something. I’m not sure where you’re getting difficult movement from, all games have forward, back, left, right, jump and crouch… I like expansive movement where effort yields rewards, and where using that system is a choice and doesn’t effect the core game itself. But yes you’re right on the last part, it’s my movement ability that opens up new decision paths for me, therefore providing a greater scope for reward… ergo… I give myself a better chance of success through my own skill rather than having it artificially supplied to me. I like that I can be given the chance to expand and progress, it’s not the difficulty that draws me to it.

I like spread with high fidelity. Brink’s spread is artificial as you can exert very little influence on it. Raven Shield has a much higher fidelity, the shooting is still pretty simple, but it’s that wide field of tension between spread and movement what makes it so rewarding and where skill is determined. It’s determining what kind of movement you need vs what amount of spread you pay for it that determines your advantage vs the opponents.

In that way I regard movement by itself as well. I think the decision to make a certain move should weigh much heavier than the execution of that move. If someone has a brilliant, well thought-out idea, then he shouldn’t be hampered by finding out the right way to finger his keyboard. After all, you’re playing a video game, it’s a battle of ideas.

When you reach the levels of advanced movement, then that does indeed weigh much heavier, because the execution of that move becomes much more difficult land, and as such, increasing the chances of failure. If someone has a well thought out idea, he should have the means and capabilities to convert theory to practice. Do you think great ideas suddenly come into practice just by thinking it? If you want a high accuracy, you practice, if you want to land a difficult jump, you practice… this cotton wool molly coddling of players who aren’t willing to dedicate to learning something and demand that it be given to them free of effort is ludicrous.

There’s a place for cognitive-based shooters with a deadly, point-precise ballet rockets, I like those as well, but in my eyes they’re a completely different sub-genre compared to shooters like ET, and the attempts at letting that genre encroach on the tactical shooter are somewhat harmful if they actually had a chance.

At the end of the day, I was querying why you think it’s easier to aim in the likes of Q3 that has an even spread of projectile and hitscan weapons compared to games that are 99% hitscan. In those games, you can choose to always be on hitscan with low spread.


(DarkangelUK) #173

double post ftw.

It matters perfectly well when you pull stuff out of thin air then can’t supply a proof of concept. Though I’m guessing you’re referring to Crytiqal at this point? Cos at no point did I ever say it was as important as shooting, though, as I have said previously (not in this thread), for purely selfish reasons I wish it were.

I grew up playing nothing but PC, and only in recent years have I played console. My favorite MP of all time RTCW, second is W:ET. Not all people who play console have zero exposure to PC gaming…

Besides, all the things you deem “impossible” on console, like strafe-jumping and such, are indeed possible.

I’d love to see that sometime, may persuade me pick up more console games.


(coolstory) #174

Are you saying q3a is easier than a game like raven shield?


(montheponies) #175

I could certainly lack understanding, not least because i spent most of my time playing RTCW and less bouncing around maps. I certainly recall not making even some simple jumps onto boxes unless I had locked the fps (could just have been me being crap…) - in terms of game swaying could you do the ice walljump with a fluctuating/uncapped fps consistently?


(Crytiqal) #176

[QUOTE=tokamak;381188]Raven Shield didn’t have jumping at all, yet the movement required a lot of skill because you need to know how far you could traverse were before what amount of risk you run into. In other words, you had to THINK your way through the maps.

You only need to press ‘R’ to reload your weapon. It’s completely devoid of skill![/QUOTE]

Euh? Correct? Anyone said it does require skill? Thanks for proving my SMART point since it also only takes 1 button :stuck_out_tongue:


(Thundermuffin) #177

I just want to throw in a comment about CS and it’s movement system; while strafejumping is really, really neutered in CS:S when compared to Q3/ETQW you still have a lot of room for being innovative and creative.

Yesterday, for example I was playing on de_inferno and realized if I could get onto one of the boxes I could surprise the terrorists as they ran by. Unlike BRINK, they weren’t stacked up right next to each other indicating you were suppose to climb up them. It was too hard to explain their positioning via text, so I just drew a quick sketch of the layout.

No one showed me how to do that, nor can I recall someone doing that while I was playing with them (or, at least I never saw them get up there). I saw an opportunity and was able to capitalize on my creativeness, without the game or some map designer assisting me in doing so.

I’d say that Counter-Strike allows for way more creative movement than BRINK, it’s just not all of it is exactly 100% useful, but at least it’s there and can be utilized if needed.


(DarkangelUK) #178

Can you do it consistently with capped fps? The jump was possible without capped fps, all jumps were possible without capped fps, though I will submit that consistency was more certain for those that could do it anyway… but consistency is a variable you’ve only just thrown into the mix :wink:


(Fetter) #179

[QUOTE=*goo;381088]Claiming that’s a barrier to entry is like claiming the game not giving you instant head-shots is a barrier to entry. People who work on their aiming get better over time. The same can be said for games with an advanced movement system. Players who work at it get better over time.

Basically, you’re advocating the removal of skill in a skill based game.[/QUOTE]

Nope. Arbitrary inputs aren’t skill. Players get better at moving via better understanding of their positioning and how to achieve it, not through figuring out the right movement combos or magic FPS cap or whatever.


(DarkangelUK) #180

Isn’t figuring out the right movement combos understanding positioning and knowing how to achieve it? lol

Btw there’s a difference between knowing how to do something and actually pulling it off. I’ve generally found those that are against advanced movement are those that can’t manage it.

Also, seriously get off the whole magic fps thing, it gave like a 1 unit consistant jump height, it didnt automatically mean you could land any jump you want.