Smart

[Humate]

Players get better at moving via better understanding of their positioning and how to achieve it, not through figuring out the right movement combos

This whole barrier to entry garbage is moot. Entry level movement is WASD… theres no barrier there.

[montheponies]

Can you do it consistently with capped fps? The jump was possible without capped fps, all jumps were possible without capped fps, though I will submit that consistency was more certain for those that could do it anyway… but consistency is a variable you’ve only just thrown into the mix

nah, 1 in 5 if i’m being kind to myself.

going back to the original point, if i’m reading h0rse right he’s not against an ‘advanced’ movement system, just that the basics of it should be known/explained to all. personally i don’t see where the harm is in that, especially if the mechanic is implemented on purpose by the developer.

if i remember correctly quakelive actually did this and ranked you based upon your furthest strafejump…

[tokamak]

Are you saying q3a is easier than a game like raven shield?

Nope, that’s completely beyond the point I’m trying to make.

[DarkangelUK]

[QUOTE=montheponies;381257]nah, 1 in 5 if i’m being kind to myself.

going back to the original point, if i’m reading h0rse right he’s not against an ‘advanced’ movement system, just that the basics of it should be known/explained to all. personally i don’t see where the harm is in that, especially if the mechanic is implemented on purpose by the developer.

if i remember correctly quakelive actually did this and ranked you based upon your furthest strafejump…[/QUOTE]
Yeah QL gave you the very basics (and I do mean basic, 3 sentences and shoddy video), and that was after the veterans in the closed beta requested such a thing. I can agree with that level of exposure, enough to let them know it exists, but then leaves it to the player to discover the full potential on their own.

[H0RSE]

[QUOTE=montheponies;381257]going back to the original point, if i’m reading h0rse right he’s not against an ‘advanced’ movement system, just that the basics of it should be known/explained to all. personally i don’t see where the harm is in that, especially if the mechanic is implemented on purpose by the developer.

if i remember correctly quakelive actually did this and ranked you based upon your furthest strafejump…[/QUOTE]
Yes, this is what I was saying.

Yeah QL gave you the very basics (and I do mean basic, 3 sentences and shoddy video), and that was after the veterans in the closed beta requested such a thing. I can agree with that level of exposure, enough to let them know it exists, but then leaves it to the player to discover the full potential on their own.

Why is it I just spent post after post trying to explain this, and had to deal with post after post of you and others mocking and berating me, when you agreed with what I proposed the whole time? Especially want to focus on the last bit of your post -

let them know it exists, but then leaves it to the player to discover the full potential on their own.

That’s sounds awfully familiar…oh yeah, because I already proposed that idea…

I never said show players every single thing strafe jumping, bunny hopping, ramping, etc. can be used for. I simply let it be known that players can do these things. The rest is up to the player - That way it leaves innovation, skill and the sense of discovery in tact.

I’m simply saying let players be aware that they are available.

[DarkangelUK]

Sorry dude, but you’re the one that gradually shifted focus to a more substantiated position. You originally started off with a ‘who cares?’ stance, it’s all nonsense, it’s not necessary, SMART is great and we don’t need anything else, ‘everything’ should be laid out in front of the player and achievable via minimal effort… now you’ve decided to say just let them know it exists and let them discover the rest, suggesting you’d now be for an advanced movement system? If you don’t want confusion, then try and keep a consistent point.

[tokamak]

Finding out different moves and paths is not the same as having to put in effort to actually pull them off. I think that’s where you two don’t connect.

[DarkangelUK]

It’s varying degrees of effort providing varying degrees of reward. I wouldn’t expect simply climbing up to a platform to require a Mortal Kombat fatality move button combo to pull off, but on the flips side, I wouldn’t expect to traverse 3 ledges, kick jump off a wall, ramp off a slope then edge through a doorway and grab onto an upper landing spot to be achievable with 1 button either.

I’ve always said what smart does it does well, it takes monotony out of simply wanting to get from one point of the map to the other without being hung up on frivolous map objects… the problem is that’s where it stops, and you’re not allowed to go beyond its function whether you like it or not.

[tokamak]

That’s what always irked me about fighting games. They’re much more fun if both players haven’t figured out all the 10 button combos yet. Not all of them do it in equal measure, but to some extend it’s about memorising ridiculously difficult button combinations to pull off different moves. A fighting game ought to be about outmanoeuvring, blocking and using the right moves to counter your opponent’s. The difficult button combinations is an artificial way to increase the skill ceiling, in the same way difficult moves in shooters are an artificial way to increase the skill decision. It calls upon a skillset that has nothing to do with decision-making.

[H0RSE]

…now you’ve decided to say just let them know it exists and let them discover the rest, suggesting you’d now be for an advanced movement system? If you don’t want confusion, then try and keep a consistent point.

What do you mean “now I decided,” the quotes I made and posted above are from 2 pages ago. Here’s another quote from page 6, am I going back far enough to show that I have proposed this idea quite long ago.?

[QUOTE=H0RSE;381028]I have no problem with learning and mastering a system, when the system in question is established and known to all. Ex. - everyone is aware of what moves the SMART system enables - it is up to the players to use these moves in creative ways, if they so choose to.
[/QUOTE]

[Crytiqal]

The difficult button combinations is an artificial way to increase the skill ceiling, in the same way difficult moves in shooters are an artificial way to increase the skill decision. It calls upon a skillset that has nothing to do with decision-making.

I don’t understand the decision making skill part?

[Senethro]

That’s what always irked me about fighting games. They’re much more fun if both players haven’t figured out all the 10 button combos yet. Not all of them do it in equal measure, but to some extend it’s about memorising ridiculously difficult button combinations to pull off different moves. A fighting game ought to be about outmanoeuvring, blocking and using the right moves to counter your opponent’s. The difficult button combinations is an artificial way to increase the skill ceiling, in the same way difficult moves in shooters are an artificial way to increase the skill decision. It calls upon a skillset that has nothing to do with decision-making.

Oh come on, fighting game special move inputs are at the level of basic operational competency, roughly equivalent to being able to tightly circle-strafe facing a central point or keeping an army in formation while not running a resource float in an RTS.

I’d also present the arguement that an increasing difficulty for a damage reward adds value to decision making. When punishing a whiffed move by your opponent do you do the safe sweep or a Cr. MK --> Super? You have to do a quick assessment of the involved risks and rewards, including a self-assessment on how capable you feel of doing each which is entering the domain of metacognition because you have to know if your execution is affected by your mindstate. How often do you see people screw up due to being greedy and nervous?

Hey, I know that actually having to learn how to play a game gets in the way of self-gratification and all, but fighting move inputs are not a big hurdle to jump. And frankly, positioning and defense with normal attacks will beat special moves up until someone has special moves at 70% consistency on demand.

[tokamak]

I don’t understand the decision making skill part?

Someone could decide to take a certain route from point a and b taking into account the risks, the exposure, the time it will take and the positions of enemies and team-mates. That’s a skill by itself, then pressing a diverse set of buttons at the right points in time is a different, cognitive skill. These skills don’t have anything to do with each other, they’re two different sets of skills. To me, the competence in pressing buttons at the right time shouldn’t be important in a multiplayer game. It may carry some weight and it may be a defining factor in a situation where far more important skills (like deciscion making) would enter in an impasse. When it comes to solving impasses it’s either that or random chance. But apart from that exception, everything else ought to be determined by the creativity, tactical insight and intuition of the player, rather than mere hand-eye coordination.

I’d also present the arguement that an increasing difficulty for a damage reward adds value to decision making. When punishing a whiffed move by your opponent do you do the safe sweep or a Cr. MK --> Super? You have to do a quick assessment of the involved risks and rewards, including a self-assessment on how capable you feel of doing each which is entering the domain of metacognition because you have to know if your execution is affected by your mindstate. How often do you see people screw up due to being greedy and nervous?

I like that and to some extend I agree. Knowing your own strengths and weakness is a whole new skill by itself. Knowing when and where to spent your mental faculties is called prioritisation which is another skill. That’s where cognitive challenges start to become valuable indeed.

Where I think a game starts to fail is when cognitive skills are capable of trumping good decisions. Where a 10 button combo trumps any kind of parry or block or whatever. Where a quickscope… enfin you know what I’m aiming at, no pun intended.

[NthLegion]

I also miss grenade cooking, interruptable reloads, no one-hit knife kills, no one-hit sniper kills and being able to instantly fire your weapon no matter what action you are doing. For a game that apparently failed, it got a lot of things right.

It really did. I also played the BF3 beta and agree with the OP. The movement is clunky and unresponsive. Also, at least half my deaths were to invisible, untouchable snipers. If Brink had released lag-free, with the current ai settings, and with accurate weapons (still waiting for those), I think it would have had a large following. There’s so much right going on in Brink. It really is a shame that the release went the way it did.

[DarkangelUK]

What do you mean “now I decided,” the quotes I made and posted above are from 2 pages ago. Here’s another quote from page 6, am I going back far enough to show that I have proposed this idea quite long ago.?

So you’re against an advanced movement system now? Which one is it?? You said they should know all the possibilities, but with an advanced, emergent movement system, that’s impossible. SMART is not an an emergent system, you have SMART and nothing else… all innovation beyond is curbed. It’s the same with the unique ways of using the tools in ETQW, no one can know everything without experimenting, being told, or being shown… which I have always said. QuakeLive had basic strafing and RJ’ing tute, but that’s an introduction to about 1% of what’s possible. As far as I can tell, you want everyone to be aware of everything that’s possible and that’s just not going to happen.

That’s what always irked me about fighting games. They’re much more fun if both players haven’t figured out all the 10 button combos yet. Not all of them do it in equal measure, but to some extend it’s about memorising ridiculously difficult button combinations to pull off different moves. A fighting game ought to be about outmanoeuvring, blocking and using the right moves to counter your opponent’s. The difficult button combinations is an artificial way to increase the skill ceiling, in the same way difficult moves in shooters are an artificial way to increase the skill decision. It calls upon a skillset that has nothing to do with decision-making.

It’s a bit more beyond memorizing a button combination, you say that like knowing what to press means you can automatically pull it off every single time without fault under any circumstance. As I’ve said, effort vs reward… you already mention it should be about out maneuvering, blocking and using the right moves… being able to execute the right moves beyond standard kick/punch is part of the game play. The effort to put in to learn and be able to execute consistently yields reward. The whole use of ‘artificial’ seems to be getting flung around a lot now, how is memorizing, timing, execution all under duress artificial difficulty? What’s the alternative? What’s the alternative that DOESN’T ruin the appeal of the game?

[tokamak]

The alternative would be an easy way to pull off the move. That way it’s all down to the decision-making.

[DarkangelUK]

The alternative would be an easy way to pull off the move. That way it’s all down to the decision-making.

It’s always about decision making, that’s never changed… and whether you decide to pull of a move that’s difficult to execute, but yields better results but could leave you exposed if you fail to do it. Your way gives us a boring ass fighting game.

[tokamak]

You can’t have it both ways. The more effort is required, the less important the decisions become. Not being able to smoothly execute your ideas compromises decision-making. All the strategy, all the tactics, all the intuition first needs to be squeezed through the filter of cognitive effort before it can be pulled off.

[DarkangelUK]

You can’t have it both ways. The more effort is required, the less important the decisions become. Not being able to smoothly execute your ideas compromises decision-making. All the strategy, all the tactics, all the intuition first needs to be squeezed through the filter of cognitive effort before it can be pulled off.

That’s where you’re wrong, i’ll say it again… effort vs reward. The more effort required, the greater the reward should be, therefore the decision becomes more important.

[tokamak]

If chess was played with extremely heavy, human sized pieces it would require more effort to play the game, but it would also allow the thickest bodybuilders to easily defeat the greatest grandmasters.