Smart

[Crytiqal]

So I assume you’re against tactics like putting mines on a Husky, or third eye camera on a Tormentor in Enemy Territory: Quake Wars?

^ This

Players should be handed the tools and use them as they wish

[H0RSE]

So I assume you’re against tactics like putting mines on a Husky, or third eye camera on a Tormentor in Enemy Territory: Quake Wars?

No, because those tactics involve using tools that are readily available to all players. All players have access to mines. It’s taking the tools available to them and using them creatively.

Strafe-jumping and other maneuvers talked about are not really readily available to all players. Yes, all players can strafe-jump or ramp, but it’s not like, “Oh, I chose Engineer. Now I have strafe-jumping and ramping capabilities.” Mines are a selectable item given to players - you can use them as you see fit and creative. Clever movement in the game is completely about finding it out for yourself, and like I mentioned earlier, even if players strafe-jump in the game, the true potential of the movements (like we see in tricking vids) could still go completely un-accessed. Like I said, the “movement system” in these games is like a hidden minigame within the game.

[BioSnark]

So I assume you’re against tactics like putting mines on a Husky, or third eye camera on a Tormentor in Enemy Territory: Quake Wars?

icarus dropping a titan.

[DarkangelUK]

So the problem is it’s harder to master, and since people can’t just pick it up in 5 mins, it should be removed for those willing to dedicate to mastering it? Finding out about planting mines on the husky, the oppressor shield on the hog, skiing the icarus, dive bombing into the ship on quarry were all done the same way, watching others and copying them, discovering it yourself, or reading about it online… movement is no different. I discovered it myself, I wrote a guide for others online, and I showed people how to in game. I found out about exactly the same way in other games, it’s not some big secret that trickers keep to themselves… the difference with this one is it actually requires learning and can’t be tacked down to a simple button press. So we’ve established we’re against having to learn and practice something now?

[INF3RN0]

I like how you compose arguments out of thin air… mines are available to all players but advanced movement is not? wtf… Anyone can learn to move properly if they put in the effort the same as any other part of the game. Just because it’s not in the tool tips or as easy as clicking one button doesn’t mean it’s not available for use. The map design in the old games didn’t require you to need to know how to move properly to get around the map, but it offered a reward for player creativity with movement to find short cuts and speed up movement that actually required some skill to do. It never interfered with the game itself, but it added an extra skill curve that complimented it. Maybe you should stick to games that simplify and spoon-feed you everything like Brink.

[montheponies]

there’s room for both surely…a system that lets you climb up/over/around things intuitively, within reason, whilst still leaving the element of skill and innovation for those interested or do we think they mutually exclusive?

personally the example in rage were portions of the map are blocked by a small railing is just lazy mapping and in a game that sortof gives the idea of freedom rightly frustrating.

[H0RSE]

So the problem is it’s harder to master, and since people can’t just pick it up in 5 mins, it should be removed for those willing to dedicate to mastering it?

No, that’s not what I’m saying. What I’m saying is that I don’t support a system that can be mastered where people may or may not even know about it in the first place.

Maybe you should stick to games that simplify and spoon-feed you everything like Brink.

Nah, I’m ok. I come from a gaming background that includes league level RTCW and W:ET play. I’m fully capable of playing “harder” games. My arguments have nothing to do with whether the the movement system in past games is too hard or not - it has to do with the fact their potential goes unnoticed by many players, simply because they are unaware of it, and yet this is what you propose as being the “better” of the systems.

Just because it’s not in the tool tips or as easy as clicking one button doesn’t mean it’s not available for use.

But tey have to know it’s available for use in the first place.

[H0RSE]

Maybe you should stick to games that simplify and spoon-feed you everything like Brink.

Nah, I’m ok. I come from a gaming background that includes league level RTCW and W:ET play. I’m fully capable of playing “harder” games.

[Thundermuffin]

If you see someone else use it, you then know it’s available for you to use. Everything doesn’t have to be laid out in a manual. It isn’t even a glitch or exploit anymore as they purposely left the ability to do it in the new engines.

By the way I had never played a Quake or Enemy Territory game before I picked up Quake Wars, so I wasn’t really educated in strafejumping at all. I now can’t even remember a time when I wasn’t strafejumping in ETQW, as I saw someone else do it in my first few hours of play and learned that’s how I need to move.

[Codine]

One of the first things I do in any shooter is to see if you can bunny hop in it.

[H0RSE]

If you see someone else use it, you then know it’s available for you to use. Everything doesn’t have to be laid out in a manual. It isn’t even a glitch or exploit anymore as they purposely left the ability to do it in the new engines.

My point is, If you want a game that has a free and versatile movement system, then the details of such a system should be laid out for all players, whether it be in-game tooltips or optional tutorial vids, or simply listed in the manual. It shouldn’t have to be discovered from watching other players play.

“This game has an amazing movement system once you learn how to use it - the catch is we’re not going to tell you about it, and you can only learn about if you find it out for yourself, learn from watching others in-game, or watch vids online.”

^ I’d like to stay away from that scenario.

[Thundermuffin]

So if someone were to put “jump and move mouse to the left while pressing a, then jump move and mouse to the right while pressing d, repeat, repeat, repeat” you wouldn’t complain and whine about it being in the game then?

[H0RSE]

So if someone were to put “jump and move mouse to the left while pressing a, then jump move and mouse to the right while pressing d, repeat, repeat, repeat” you wouldn’t complain and whine about it being in the game then?

lol, I’m not whining. I’m simply saying if you want to implement a movement system into a game, why keep it such a secret? If the basics are outlined for all players from the start, and skill is still needed to unlock its full potential, what’s the problem? Seems like a pretty straight forward “Common Sense game Design 101” stuff to me. Some of you seem to think that by doing this, you remove all the skill involved.

[DarkangelUK]

lol, I’m not whining. I’m simply saying if you want to implement a movement system into a game, why keep it such a secret? If the basics are outlined for all players from the start, and skill is still needed to unlock its full potential, what’s the problem? Seems like a pretty straight forward “Common Sense game Design 101” stuff to me. Some of you seem to think that by doing this, you remove all the skill involved.

Again you’re saying everything should be laid out on a plate and innovation curbed. I respect your views dude, but you’re totally way off base here… and not even slightly, but by a huge ****-off margin. You want to remove innovation and any lateral thinking that the player may have, because someone actually thinking for themselves may give them the upper hand over someone that doesn’t give a crap and wants mindless, simpleton gaming.

I’ve already explained why it would never, ever be a secret. How exactly could it be a secret? How? Idtech has always had strafing throughout each iteration, it’s up to the devs to remove it… that’s no secret. Take it as a given, every game since Q1 has had advanced movement that was never advertised, and this rings true in idtech 5. Again this doesn’t affect consoles as controllers mean it’s impossible to do strafing with it. I can safely say in every single idtech based game I’ve played, this is the 1st time i’ve EVER seen someone say that the movement system is a ‘secret’ and the fact it isn’t in the manual or advertised as official bad. Again, what camp are you lobbying for here? Consoles it doesn’t matter, PC want it.

EDIT: In fact, you’re on the assumption that the devs are aware of the players full potential here. Do you think the devs or their play testers are as good as trickers that spend their time learning the ins and outs of the movement system? How can they advertise or account for stuff they don’t even know about? Emergent gaming means stuff will develop beyond what the developer envisioned, and there’s no way for accounting for that. The only way to control that is to nerf any innovation, and that’s a bad decision… as we can clearly see.

[H0RSE]

Again you’re saying everything should be laid out on a plate and innovation curbed. I respect your views dude, but you’re totally way off base here… and not even slightly, but by a huge ****-off margin. You want to remove innovation and any lateral thinking that the player may have, because someone actually thinking for themselves may give them the upper hand over someone that doesn’t give a crap and wants mindless, simpleton gaming.

Innovation comes from what you do with the tools available to you, not from simply knowing what tools you have. If players are all aware of strafe-jumping, ramping etc. they don’t instantly become masters at performing them and they certainly don’t become masters of where to use them and the layouts and geometry of the maps.

I can safely say in every single idtech based game I’ve played, this is the 1st time i’ve EVER seen someone say that the movement system is a ‘secret’ and the fact it isn’t in the manual or advertised as official bad. Again, what camp are you lobbying for here? Consoles it doesn’t matter, PC want it.
But it is a secret. Regardless if you or every single person you play with knows about them, how did they initially find out about them? What about people who never played an idtech game before? Before they jumped into the game, they were essentially secret, hidden maneuvers, especially what they are capable of.

[DarkangelUK]

Innovation comes from what you do with the tools available to you, not from simply knowing what tools you have. If players are all aware of strafe-jumping, ramping etc. they don’t instantly become masters at performing them and they certainly don’t become masters of where to use them and the layouts and geometry of the maps.

The tools are always there, so yes you’re right… innovation came from those those that took the movement mechanics and expanded on them. So oppressor shield on hogs, HE on husky, exactly the same… innovative uses for something that was never advertised. No one was aware of them, they were discovered, like everything else. You can’t choose what does and doesn’t fit your argument here dude.

But it is a secret. Regardless if you or every single person you play with knows about them, how did they initially find out about them? What about people who never played an idtech game before? Before they jumped into the game, they were essentially secret, hidden maneuvers, especially what they are capable of.

It’s not a secret. A secret means you purposely hide information, exactly what part is hidden here on purpose? It’s all freely available everywhere… in game, from players, on forums, website, youtube… must be the worst kept secret ever. It’s emergent gameplay that the user themselves generated, not a single portion of this was hidden purposely by the devs, therefore not a secret at all.

Before I jump into any game there’s a metric ****ton of stuff I didn’t know about, that includes every game you or me have played. Can you honestly say the manual or official website has told you absolutely everything you need to know about a game? No, you can’t.

You’re viewing this in completely the wrong way, like there’s some conspiracy here to keep this type of movement hidden… when in fact it’s some we all want brought to the forefront and expanded upon. I honestly think you’re arguing for the sake of arguing now, the ludicracy of the point you’re trying to make is just completely mental. Are you even a gamer???

[INF3RN0]

I honestly think you’re arguing for the sake of arguing now, the ludicracy of the point you’re trying to make is just completely mental.

This is how it works on the forums 99% of the time. Make a statement, refuse to back-down, and then enter the realm of ridiculousness. The well-known forum users who draw out their weak/illogical arguments with their infamous vague verbose posts make me want to get violent…

[tangoliber]

First of all, you can strafe jump with a controller, and do other movement tricks. Strafe jumping is not difficult anyway. I don’t understand the comment about not being able to press more than one button. Brink itself requires two buttons for movement…crouch and jump…and it is easier to pull off on a controller than it is on a non-gaming mouse and keyboard. Equal to a gaming mouse, I suppose. Where controllers and mouse are different is in aiming…but buttons are buttons.

Techniques that were unintended by the developers often make games better, and it sucks when they are removed from sequels. I hated it when Killzone 3 took out the effectiveness of tap-firing, which is sort of similar to CS Go taking out the effectiveness of tap firing. I also hated it when they took out deployable spawn points, because one of the biggest advanced techniques in Killzone 2 was learning invisible spawn glitches for every inch of the match, so that your team could spawn anywhere without alerting the other team. I will miss ruses in Wargame European Escalation, because being able to read decryption arrows in Ruse really made it fun at a high level.

So, I completely understand the feeling. But new IPs should be allowed to have their own advanced techniques, and shouldn’t necessarily have to provide the old ones. The problem was that not that many advanced techniques really came out of Brink. It should have been wall-jumping and double wall-jumping everywhere for a speed boost, but that really didn’t work out as expected. There are a couple of very difficult wall jump glitches that I can’t pull off…there is the “big glitch” that we don’t talk about because it is awesome and we don’t want SD to discover it and patch it out…and I guess that being able to throw a Lazarus grenade over Security Tower and hit someone is an advanced skill…but there isn’t much. There was some depth to the Gerund and Rhett, in my opinion, before their hipfire got nerfed to hell.

So, I agree that advanced techniques are important (and strafe jumping is hardly a secret as Quake Live teaches it in tutorials I believe). However, some people sound like they just specifically want strafe jumping and ramping. Brink didn’t necessarily need strafe jumping…it just needed an advanced skill of its own. I think a wall-jump plus single bunny hop for a significant speed boost would be nice. For instance, like most people, whenever I run out of the second Security spawn point on Container City, I jump off the platform onto that barricade and bounce off of it. It would be nice if with the momentum we have from the first jump, if we could get more of a boost from the second.

[H0RSE]

The tools are always there, so yes you’re right… innovation came from those those that took the movement mechanics and expanded on them. So oppressor shield on hogs, HE on husky, exactly the same… innovative uses for something that was never advertised. No one was aware of them, they were discovered, like everything else. You can’t choose what does and doesn’t fit your argument here dude.

I’m not picking and choosing anything.

• Oppressor shields, Hogs - both in-game. Both something all players are aware of. Putting the 2 together is where innovation comes in.
• HE, Husky - both in game. Both something all players are aware of. Putting the 2 together is where innovation comes in.
• Strafe-jumping, ramping, tricking. All in-game. All things not everyone could be aware of. A player can’t be innovative if they’re not even aware they exist or what they can do.

You’re viewing this in completely the wrong way, like there’s some conspiracy here to keep this type of movement hidden… when in fact it’s some we all want brought to the forefront and expanded upon. I honestly think you’re arguing for the sake of arguing now, the ludicracy of the point you’re trying to make is just completely mental. Are you even a gamer???

I’m simply approaching it from the standpoint of what would be needed to implement a better movement system in a game. The “every man for himself, discover it for yourself approach,” is not something that makes or breaks the capabilities of a movement system, Yet some of you seem to believe it does. laying out the fundamentals for all players from the start (like the SMART tutorials) simply allows all players to be on an even playing field from the start. What they do from there is where the skill and innovation take over.

I’m simply implying that if you were to implement a versatile movement system in a game, first off, the engine would need to be built for it - It wouldn’t be based around user-created moves and interactions. It would be based around moves and interactions that compliment each other or “make sense” like climbing over a wall instead of having to ramp over it. real people climb over walls - they don’t run really fast up an incline and somehow get a burst of speed at the peak of a jump and clear a wall. Basically, take the SMART system, and remove many of its restrictions.

[Humate]

• Strafe-jumping, ramping, tricking. All in-game. All things not everyone could be aware of. A player can’t be innovative if they’re not even aware they exist or what they can do.

A player can only be innovative when they arent initially aware of every possibility in the game. The discovery is part of what makes that player innovative and that knowledge (and the skill associated with that knowledge) is the advantage they have over other players. Once something new has been discovered, if its not patched out it becomes part of the meta-game. Other players adjust their play according to that discovery.

eg you see a rolling husky coming near you with no driver, you move out of the way because you anticipate a 3rd eye camera…