slide to finish off downed enemies? POLL

(AmishWarMachine) #41

Based on my experience, and Nexolate’s research on this very subject… if this is how it is supposed to be, then it is not working as intended. Having to put 6-8 rounds into an incap player (and I know they landed because of the indicative little blood splatter sprites) doesn’t equal “almost no health” to me (I would wager, to anyone).

Sure, it’s fewer bullets to gib when they are in DF… but it’s nothing anywhere near a minimal value.

Incap HP needs to be somewhere where DF HP currently is, and DF HP needs to be half of that. And you need to not neuter bullet damage to incap (non-DF) players.

As for the headshots to gib… well, considering I can COGA with a barnett right at the head of someone on the ground, pull the trigger, and watch the bullet hit center-mass…

(tokamak) #42

The having to waste bullets part is fine, it’s the melee option that doesn’t compare, it takes too much time and effort to pull off and is only in very few situations viable.

Why not simply put a multiplier on melee attacks so that they always one-hit kill instead of having to do a little dance around the target trying to set the animation of in the right way?

(wolfnemesis75) #43

[QUOTE=Rahdo;371575]We didn’t have sliding killed downed because we wanted players to have to “commit” to the kill instead of doing it blithely and easily without a second thought. You’ve got to slow down and see it through to finish them off with melee. Though you can still do it fairly quickly if you practice… IIRC basically you’ve got to have them under your crosshair on a particular frame of the animation, so with timing, you can get it quicker.

Basically the notion was that we didn’t want it to be super easy to kill downed guys, so that there was a better chance that medics would get a chance to revive them. If everyone is incredibly easy to finish off, then what’s the reason to have incapped state in the first place?

That said, remember that headshots still work on a downed character, so if your angle is right, you can finish them quicker with guns. And even more important (I’m surprised how many people don’t realize this), if they’ve got downed fire (which you can clearly see even if they’re not shooting, because they still have their gun in their hands while they’re down), definitely don’t bother with a melee finisher at all, because they have almost no hitpoints, and just a quick burst should finish them off. That’s the big negative balancer for downed fire, sure it’s great and powerful, but you’re as fragile as an egg shell, and anyone can finish you off quickly and easily from any distance. If you don’t have downed fire, it’s tougher to finish you off, and the enemy has to commit time or ammo to get it done.

That’s the thinking anyway… :)[/QUOTE]Is Downed Fire automatically ready as soon as a player hits the ground? Because there seems to be a slight pause before they’re able to use Downed Fire against you. If you blast them during this small window, they are killed really fast and easily. But, if they are at a distance and start using DF, then they can drop you as you approach for the finish and also it seems to take tons of bullets to kill them, so at times they don’t seem very fragile with DF. Do buffs still apply on a DF player? :slight_smile:

(nephandys) #44

DF takes 5 seconds or so before it is available to the downed player. I think your buffs are gone because they disappear from the HUD, but I’m not sure about passives like the Soldier’s Kevlar.

(thesuzukimethod) #45

nexo’s numbers seem to indicate that DF players have 1/2 the HP of a non-DF.

Not opposed to subtle tweaks, but insta-kill slides or 1 melee gibs seem a bit OP. (i would likely respec DF off my chars if these were implemented, b/c the points would be better spent elsewhere)

I still stand by my comment that if a team is clued in that you have/use DF, you are unlikely to get many shots off - so i think the mechanism mostly works, even if DF players seem to last a bit longer than expected… if anything, i’d tone down the DF hit points a bit to start.

(wolfnemesis75) #46

I played a match where we were trying to repair the crane on CC and there was an enemy with DF under a pile of bodies we could not see killing us every time we tried to repair. Eventually we were all dead and the DF guy was still alive until we finally figured out what was happening. We were all laughing pretty hard. A DF seems to have a tad bit too much power. :slight_smile:

(wolfnemesis75) #47

[QUOTE=nephandys;371695]DF takes 5 seconds or so before it is available to the downed player. I think your buffs are gone because they disappear from the HUD, but I’m not sure about passives like the Soldier’s Kevlar.[/QUOTE]5 seconds seems long. Facing off against DF it seems to take 2-3 seconds before the enemy DF animation starts? In that window I’ve noticed that its easy to kill them. Perhaps, because DF shoots with typical power once it starts, it naturally makes them harder to kill, or do they still have Kevlar? Hard to tell. But I do know there’s a window of time where a DF opponent is very easy to kill, but once the DF starts, you’re in trouble, especially at mid-range. My impression so far. Now, I kill no questions asked or switch to my Ritchie immediately to stave off any DF evil treachery. :slight_smile:

(AmishWarMachine) #48

I think DF activation and readiness is directly attributed to secondary weapon equip speed. My heavy soldier with a rhett (w/ weapon shield) takes a damned long time to get his gun up and ready for revenge.

My light Op with a Kalt, on the other hand, it’s damned near out and ready before my body hits the ground.

(nephandys) #49

You are no harder to kill once DF pops up than before hand. One frag any where near my body when I am incapped with DF is enough to take me out. As soon as I see that circle around the nade symbol I know I’m toast. IMO the problem with taking out someone with DF is spread, latency, and your bullets in general just not landing where they should or registering appropriately. That’s why you find it a lot easier to kill someone with the Ritchie than an SMG. Also of course the Ritchie does more dmg per bullet than any SMG. Personally I kill incapped people all the time with my SMG no biggie. It does seem to take more bullets than it should, but I really think it’s for the reasons I listed before not anything to do with DF ability in particular.

Just for fun, start keeping track of how many times you die from DF and why if you don’t do so already. If the reasons are due to there be NOTHING or damn near close to nothing you could possibly due to avoid it (including running away) then the ability might be OP. But if there’s any reason at all you could have survived the encounter or done something to avoid death than it’s on you not the ability. (This sounds kind of rude, but I don’t mean it that way at all. Also, with the current framework being DF implemented the way it is it would only help you get better at surviving it regardless of whether it is OP or not).

*Still only referring to pub play here just to be clear.

(Nexolate) #50

Figured I’d bring across the stats from the Downed Fire discussion.

[QUOTE=Nexolate;370996]Light HP: 120
Medium HP: 140
Heavy HP: 180

Incapactitated HP: ~200HP effective (~100HP + incoming damage halved)
Downed Fire HP: ~100HP[/QUOTE]

100 HP is still quite a lot. That’s a little under an unbuffed Light.

Regards,
Nexo

(nephandys) #51

[QUOTE=Nexolate;371753]Figured I’d bring across the stats from the Downed Fire discussion.

100 HP is still quite a lot. That’s a little under an unbuffed Light.

Regards,
Nexo[/QUOTE]
100 HP = what? 4-5 C9 Bullets to the body (if they actually hit)? 2 Ritchie body shots, etc. It is a substantial amount of life if you compare it to base HP, but it’s really not considering the dmg most bullets do. Should they drop DF HP so you die in 2 C9 shots (roughly 50 HP?), 3 (roughly 70HP?). To me 4-5 bullets isn’t much if those 4-5 bullets would actually land and drop the person.

(wolfnemesis75) #52

[QUOTE=nephandys;371724]You are no harder to kill once DF pops up than before hand. One frag any where near my body when I am incapped with DF is enough to take me out. As soon as I see that circle around the nade symbol I know I’m toast. IMO the problem with taking out someone with DF is spread, latency, and your bullets in general just not landing where they should or registering appropriately. That’s why you find it a lot easier to kill someone with the Ritchie than an SMG. Also of course the Ritchie does more dmg per bullet than any SMG. Personally I kill incapped people all the time with my SMG no biggie. It does seem to take more bullets than it should, but I really think it’s for the reasons I listed before not anything to do with DF ability in particular.

Just for fun, start keeping track of how many times you die from DF and why if you don’t do so already. If the reasons are due to there be NOTHING or damn near close to nothing you could possibly due to avoid it (including running away) then the ability might be OP. But if there’s any reason at all you could have survived the encounter or done something to avoid death than it’s on you not the ability. (This sounds kind of rude, but I don’t mean it that way at all. Also, with the current framework being DF implemented the way it is it would only help you get better at surviving it regardless of whether it is OP or not).

*Still only referring to pub play here just to be clear.[/QUOTE]Actually, leave none alive has become my motto. I already don’t think DF is fair currently, and so am extra cognizant of it after downing an enemy. DF is a tad OP and unkind against newer players. Seems imbalanced. Perhaps when the level cap was 20 there was less people with it? And more balanced in that way?

Still feel it needs a nerf.

(Nexolate) #53

I’m not saying anything. Just posting stats so people can judge for themselves.

Regards,
Nexo

(AmishWarMachine) #54

[QUOTE=Nexolate;371796]I’m not saying anything. Just posting stats so people can judge for themselves.

Regards,
Nexo[/QUOTE]
Unintentionally, you’ve also pointed out yet another advantage to the light body type over the mediums and heavies. Incap HP is, essentially, a second life to a light body type… whereas it is only a half-life(tm?) for a heavy.

Awesome.

(Nexolate) #55

Actually because you only take half damage when you’re incapacitated, it’s more like two lives.
One life for the Heavy.

Regards,
Nexo

(nephandys) #56

[QUOTE=Nexolate;371796]I’m not saying anything. Just posting stats so people can judge for themselves.

Regards,
Nexo[/QUOTE]
I was just asking everyone for their thought and using your post as a springboard for my own ideas. Re-reading my post it does seem a little hostile. Sorry if it came across that way.

(SinDonor) #57

I’ve noticed that the dopey Pub Standard bots leave you alone if you don’t fire at them while in DF. They’ll incap you then start running away. The minute you fire at them, then they’re all like:

(Jimmy James) #58

[QUOTE=Nexolate;371803]Actually because you only take half damage when you’re incapacitated, it’s more like two lives.
One life for the Heavy.

Regards,
Nexo[/QUOTE]
To quote a hungry amateur sleuth with an affinity for Great Danes: “Zoinks!”

That roughly translates to: “Thank you for that info!”

-JJ

(Terminator514) #59

Frankly I think this would completely destroy downed fire, since you probably would not get a chance to shoot before someone quickly slid into you. Besides, it would loom kind of ridiculous with everyone sliding around the map trying to get kills.

(Hot-Wire) #60

You shouldn’t be able to. If down fire is an issue, just use your gun to bleed them out.