How do you make a tactic around pushing mouse1 to shoot? Gamers stuck in previous paradigms radically overemphasize the need for skill in shooting and movement. Both of these are really just barriers to entry that make it more difficult to play at a viable level without adding depth to the game. See David Sirlin’s comments on game design for more insight in this regard. The real skill in team FPS games is coordination, communication, and executing tactics in efficient and/or unexpected ways. BRINK has that in spades, but players have unfortunately been unwilling to adapt. It’s interesting to note that “competitive” teams still rely on the Carb even post-nerf, when other weapons are clearly viable-- another sign of how much the community is failing to adapt.
'Skill' in Brink
You really are missing the point…
You are focusing on the “skill” involved on physically just hitting one key (the F button) to perform an action, coupled with the mechanics of past games, rather than focusing on the skills needed in Brink that come with performing said action.
You can’t compare tactics in one game, to tactics in another, when both games have different mechanics. Brink does things differently than past SD games, and as such, comes with it’s own set of skills and tactics.
I don’t really know how you’d make a tactic around mouse1 (note I never said tactic but skill which is completely different), but how do you make a tactic around bashing the F key?
I think you mention it’s funny how aiming and moving is a barrier to entry, yet this game simplifies both (spray n pray and penalizing movement), but there is no community for it. Yet games like Counter-Strike that punish you for being bad (which it seems you have a problem with based on the fact you call basic skills a barrier to entry) have way more players on at all times than BRINK (and have more online than BRINK ever did).
I wonder if you really know how much coordination goes into BRINK. It is literally “guys, don’t push in until each medic and engy buffs you completely. Okay, go-go-go rush red. Crap we died, buff buff buff on spawn, 2 red 1 blue 2 top go-go-go. Don’t forget to nade shoot!” or if you’re defense it boils down to “Buff. Buff. Buff. Nade shoot. Buff. Buff. Buff. Nade shoot.” Do you really call that coordinating?
No other weapon is “clearly” viable as they all suck, because they don’t shoot straight. The only reason the carb is used is because it has the highest DPS and with this lotto spread that’s all that is required to win. I’m also pretty sure the carb-9 still beats every other gun, because the only way to really lose with it is to go against another carb-9 or go up against a totally buffed player with no buffs (and even then you can still win.)
[QUOTE=H0RSE;372286]You really are missing the point…
You are focusing on the “skill” involved on physically just hitting one key (the F button) to perform an action, coupled with the mechanics of past games, rather than focusing on the skills needed in Brink that come with performing said action.
You can’t compare tactics in one game, to tactics in another, when both games have different mechanics. Brink does things differently than past SD games, and as such, comes with it’s own set of skills and tactics.[/QUOTE]
I’m not missing any point; there is no skill involved in BRINK that has to do with the one button mechanic. None whatsoever, unless you have trouble remembering where the F key is. Tons of the people in this thread are from pretty big teams in the community, yet you still act as if they’re wrong. Why is that?
Tons of the people in this thread are from pretty big teams in the community, yet you still act as if they’re wrong. Why is that?
Because they are?..
Is there a right or wrong answer to this question?
Is this a trick question?
Where are my pants?
mouse1 and F are not comparable. You can press mouse1 all day long, but if you can’t aim it won’t do you any good at all. The same is not at all true of F.
I didn’t realize it was possible to overemphasize the need for shooting skill in a first person shooter. Regardless, I much prefer the “previous paradigm” where shooting skill and movement skill actually matter and the winner of a fight isn’t determined by lotto spread.
Both of these are really just barriers to entry
Skill requirements serving as a barrier to entry? Yes. I think that’s the point. Brink doesn’t have that barrier to entry, which is the entire point of this thread.
The real skill in team FPS games is coordination, communication, and executing tactics in efficient and/or unexpected ways.
I completely disagree. Coordination, communication and executing tactics are incredibly important, but this is not an RTS or an MMO. This is a shooting game. Shooting and movement are just as important. It’s about balance. You need everything to be a good team.
It’s interesting to note that “competitive” teams still rely on the Carb even post-nerf, when other weapons are clearly viable-- another sign of how much the community is failing to adapt.
You think teams didn’t try the other weapons after the nerf? Is the fact that the Carb-9 is still superior, despite the nerf, hard to accept? The fact that people still bitch about it so much seems to indicate that it is. I guarantee you that if the Carb-9 had been nerfed to the point where a different gun was better the competitive teams would have switched to it.
You don’t. It’s an input, not a mechanic. Just like you don’t make a tactic around mouse1.
CS is a good game. That said, lots of people flock to it because by having high (or even just mid-level) basic skills lets one player defeat many, especially when neither side is coordinated. In BRINK, coordination and teamplay is-- as it should be-- more important than aiming ability, and one player has to be either exceptionally skilled, in an extremely advantageous situation, or with exceptionally bad opponents to defeat many. Thus, people who don’t want to work with a team-- the vast majority of players-- don’t play BRINK, since they can’t do well in pub matches. As for the competitive community, I’d say it’s a mix of an incompetent launch (no offense SD, but this was really mismanaged) killing early hype and general failure to adapt. Post-patch BRINK is a completely acceptable game, but we still see the same old tactics being used.
That’s coordinating, but only to a very basic degree. What I really call the competitive scene is simple-- failing to adapt.
Try hitting mouse2 or tap/burst-firing.
False-- even sticking only to SMGs, the Tampa has higher DPS. That said, it is inaccurate enough to necessitate use at shorter ranges than many people find acceptable, and hence it generally sees less use.
Or to encounter someone in a range band where your gun isn’t so godly. Protip-- exploiting those other range bands lets you beat the Carb with other guns! For instance, a Tampa is better than a Carb at extremely close range, whereas a Barnett or Drognav is vastly superior over a long distance.
Of course there isn’t. It’s an input, not a mechanic-- the only way to make there be skill in inputs is to make complicated inputs or button combos, which are basically unheard-of in competitive play aside from fighting games, and frowned upon even then (again, see David Sirlin). On the other hand, there’s a lot of skill, coordination, and depth to the buffing mechanic in general.
Because they’re wrong? Being from a serious (not “big”) team doesn’t mean you’re always right, and the current scene honestly doesn’t have any teams that I’d describe as “serious.” Simple as that.
Honestly, I always thought Brink was another iteration of the Team Fortress formula with guns that don’t shoot straight, but it turns out it’s actually a brand new paradigm in a brave new world of gaming. Maybe they should have gone the whole hog and made it a First Person Team RTS with the shooting and movement handled automatically to make room for coordination and communication (there seems to be some audience for that here.)
See some team-mates in need of assistance, push a button, game logic prioritises one of them for you (or the nearest command post) and dishes out the candy.
Brink has lots of things going for it, but I don’t think the buffing is one of them.
[QUOTE=MoonOnAStick;372308]See some team-mates in need of assistance, push a button, game logic prioritises one of them for you (or the nearest command post) and dishes out the candy.
Brink has lots of things going for it, but I don’t think the buffing is one of them.[/QUOTE]
Just think about the way that buffing interacts with other supply uses. In some cases as Medic you may not want to buff everyone, since you might need to conserve some supply for revives, heals, grenades, and field regen units. There’s a lot of depth and choices in this system that many people don’t really seem to think about.
Ironically, “competitive” specifications, which remove or ban a great many abilities, actually IMO reduce the skill ceiling of BRINK.
Remember folks, logic has nothing to do with Brink! Competitive players are infallible just like the Pope was with his decrees!
Buffing is a skill that needs to be mastered and there is finesse to it because it’s a limited resource. However, most of the time it’s just spam F and get points in pubs and you always encounter those medics who have ZERO resources to res with 
When you talk about skill in Brink, don’t compare it to other games; Brink has its own context just like other games do, sure there are cross-over skills like aiming but whether or not if it is a high importance has little to do withe argument of skill because skill is context specific.
[QUOTE=Steinernein;372331]
Buffing is a skill that needs to be mastered and there is finesse to it because it’s a limited resource. However, most of the time it’s just spam F and get points in pubs and you always encounter those medics who have ZERO resources to res with :([/quote]
It’s not skill that determines the best time to use buff, common sense does that. Can you give an example of what gains the player gets from ‘mastering’ buffing?
When you talk about skill in Brink, don’t compare it to other games; Brink has its own context just like other games do, sure there are cross-over skills like aiming but whether or not if it is a high importance has little to do withe argument of skill because skill is context specific.
Again can you give examples of unique skillsets only available to Brink, therefore not comparable to other games?
A varying degree of skills should mean there are varying degrees of success and gain, the higher the skill ceiling, the greater degree in gain and an increase in ‘wow factor’.
Shooting: Due to the large random spread, the skill ceiling is lowered severely, as no matter how good your aim is, your accuracy is limited by that large spread and you can never have a greater hit percentage than the system will allow. A tighter spread would then move that skill towards the players hand-eye coordination as that would then be the limiting factor when it comes to shooting… and that requires skill to master.
Moving: Again limitations of the movement mechanic mean you can never grow beyond it, I haven’t seen one thing in Brinks movement system that can’t be done by just about any random player… that means the skill ceiling is so low, that just about anyone can do anything. Skillfull movement requires practice and time to dedicate to it, and the gains brought from it shouldn’t be achievable to those that don’t spend the time to master something, and if they can achieve it without practice, then it’s not difficult therefore requires very little skill.
Buffing: Your ‘skillful use’ with buffing are again limited here, but this time by your team mates. The game requires you to be right next to your team mate to administer the buff, so the only real thinking here is knowing when not to stick your head out in the open, or not to inadvertently get surfed into the enemies line of fire so you don’t get shot trying to buff someone. That’s not skill, that’s just not being an idiot.
Saying a game has 0 skill is obviously an over exaggeration, but saying it requires a lot of skill when it’s quite clear that every gamer can achieve everything with a limited range of success doesn’t quite cut it either.
Fetter you make some interesting points there and if the rest of the game was designed better I would certainly agree with you on most of the points you made however that isn’t the case.
Lets take for example the gun range point for example. Most maps boil down to cramp areas surrounding an objective with perhaps 1 or 2 intermediate open areas where your suggestion could actually play out however as those areas aren’t areas of great interest so most players wont be fighting there, they will be in those small areas where ranged weapons lose their advantage over the SMGs.
If only that was the case, VOIP off by default, no more vsays, automatic voice chatter been spammed every 5 seconds, it doesn’t allow for great coordination and/or communication. Another thing, where did the command maps go?
The mechanics for supporting your team in Brink don’t allow for much in the way of tactics when compared with past games and their support handling, it’s a fair comparison in my opinion.
Brink you may have two options, have a buff party at each spawn so everyone has health and weapons buffs and such but you’ll risk not having as much revives for the moments following, or save your buffs for later at the risk of your team been weaker but you’ll have more revives and ammo buffs left for the battlefield.
Seeing as buffs regenerate quite quickly you may as well just buff like mad at the spawn as there isn’t much of a penalty, especially if you’re on attack as by time you’ve reached the objective you’ll have most you’re buffs back again to give out thanks to the awesome map designs…
General thoughts:
Whilst these types of games shouldn’t be solely about individual shooting skill it should be a skill that is recognised and rewarded, SD have in Brink seem to have pampered those with weak shooting skills at the expense of those with skill in that regards. Remember in all the interviews early on when they were saying you don’t even need to shoot to win a game and all that bollocks, seriously? Why bother calling it an FPS if the S part isn’t up to much.
Past SD games rewarded both team work and individual skill, is that too much to ask for?
[QUOTE=.Chris.;372351]Whilst these types of games shouldn’t be solely about individual shooting skill it should be a skill that is recognised and rewarded, SD have in Brink seem to have pampered those with weak shooting skills at the expense of those with skill in that regards. Remember in all the interviews early on when they were saying you don’t even need to shoot to win a game and all that bollocks, seriously? Why bother calling it an FPS if the S part isn’t up to much.
Past SD games rewarded both team work and individual skill, is that too much to ask for?[/QUOTE]
I have to admit, Brink would be ten times the game for me if the gunplay was a bit better.
I mean the guns already recoil a fair amount after so many shots, the damage is pretty decent and the sounds are quite good. If only they were more accurate, then you’d have some pretty fun shooting.
Regards,
Nexo
[QUOTE=Fetter;372322]Just think about the way that buffing interacts with other supply uses. In some cases as Medic you may not want to buff everyone, since you might need to conserve some supply for revives, heals, grenades, and field regen units. There’s a lot of depth and choices in this system that many people don’t really seem to think about.
Ironically, “competitive” specifications, which remove or ban a great many abilities, actually IMO reduce the skill ceiling of BRINK.[/QUOTE]So glad you said this because I agree. 
Console player. There is not much gun skill in Brink. Everyone is pretty much on the same level there. Not much you can do with the large spreads.
The “skill” of Brink has more to do with handling information overload. You have turrets, mines, wounded bodies all over the place, an objective to perform, teammates to revive, an enemies and teammates on your radar, etc… The skill is in being able to process all the information and choose the best order of actions available to you.
When you remove the gun skill, then you pretty much just increase the value of decision making.
That said, I would like for spreads to be lowered, and for gun skill to be more important.
[QUOTE=tangoliber;372363]Console player. There is not much gun skill in Brink. Everyone is pretty much on the same level there. Not much you can do with the large spreads.
The “skill” of Brink has more to do with handling information overload. You have turrets, mines, wounded bodies all over the place, an objective to perform, teammates to revive, an enemies and teammates on your radar, etc… The skill is in being able to process all the information and choose the best order of actions available to you.
When you remove the gun skill, then you pretty much just increase the value of decision making.
That said, I would like for spreads to be lowered, and for gun skill to be more important.[/QUOTE]Make no mistake. There is gun skill in Brink. Just because a bunch of point n click uber nerds don’t think so, don’t make it true. I know people in Brink who win 9/10 1v1 gun fights in Brink and I am on Console. I win most 1v1 fights I enter and win a lot of 1v3, 1v4 situations too. If there was no skill, then I’d be 50% on every fight, which I am not. The gun skill in Brink is about finding an edge, strafing, experience, cool focus, and lethal understanding of the nuisances. There is a huge skill gap between the Vets in Brink and the noobs.
There are certainly a lot of areas where SMGs can be dominant. That being said, those areas aren’t all the game has to offer. Look at SecTower for example-- both the opening plant and several elements of the escort objective take place in areas where the two sides will be widely separated from another. Further, even on the hack objective, which takes place in a not-particularly-large room, there are places where longer-range weapons can shine. The outer corridor, for instance, is long enough that ARs will have an advantage over SMGs. Further, since you can change your loadout on the fly with a command post, players can switch to whatever is most useful at the current stage of the map and aren’t stuck with a poor weapon if the game changes to a different phase.
I fully agree with you on this being a misstep. While the automatic voice chatter is useful, it doesn’t convey the full picture to people, and critically doesn’t help them coordinate pushes and rushes on specific objectives. This can be mitigated by proper planning, but was IMO a clear design flaw in BRINK.
[QUOTE=.Chris.;372351]Brink you may have two options, have a buff party at each spawn so everyone has health and weapons buffs and such but you’ll risk not having as much revives for the moments following, or save your buffs for later at the risk of your team been weaker but you’ll have more revives and ammo buffs left for the battlefield.
Seeing as buffs regenerate quite quickly you may as well just buff like mad at the spawn as there isn’t much of a penalty, especially if you’re on attack as by time you’ve reached the objective you’ll have most you’re buffs back again to give out thanks to the awesome map designs…[/quote]
I don’t find this to necessarily be the case, especially when playing classes with multiple buffs to give out. As a medic, for instance, I often find myself budgeting two or three supply pips for revives and battlefield heals, and more on escort missions. As a soldier, I often save ammo distribution for those who really need it so that I’ll have more grenades when the time comes.
[QUOTE=.Chris.;372351]Whilst these types of games shouldn’t be solely about individual shooting skill it should be a skill that is recognised and rewarded, SD have in Brink seem to have pampered those with weak shooting skills at the expense of those with skill in that regards. Remember in all the interviews early on when they were saying you don’t even need to shoot to win a game and all that bollocks, seriously? Why bother calling it an FPS if the S part isn’t up to much.
Past SD games rewarded both team work and individual skill, is that too much to ask for?[/QUOTE]
I think this is actually an important point. At present, shooting skill is likely deemphasized too much, leading to frustrated players and often people switching to different games. By tightening up the spread but keeping damage relatively low, I think Splash Damage will be able to create a balance that will appeal to people who prefer both more traditional and more teamplay-oriented games. Of course, it remains to be seen whether this will result in an influx of players, but to me it seems like the obvious next move.
Thanks for the well-thought out reply!
Says, the guy who evades all direct questions concerning his own experience with previous games etc.
The only “skill gap” would be that they arent looking on their radar and see you coming.
About the automatic voice chatter…
I sometimes hear: “watch out, he’s got a cortex bomb” or “hey, he is wearing my face, enemy in disguise!”
And I am like, who the **** is talking to me and WHERE is this happening?
It is totally useless.
Rather had player interactions then some automated voice coming from who knows
You know what requires skill?
Adding yourself to a friggin fireteam.
First you get a popup there is a “vote in progress” (whatever, its called a question but whatever)
Then you have click to actually look what the vote is…
Then you have to vote (yes or no)
and THEN you have to manually close the popup.
Seriously? In a “fast paced fps” you have to actually stop gaming for a minute to add yourself to a fireteam.
And when you are added to the fireteam, that light purple nametag makes your fireteam mates even less visible.
I remember when it only took 1 button (F1) to accept the invite, but somehow someone came up with a “better” idea.
What I was thinking was:
Body Type --> New speed
Light --> Light + Speed Boost
Medium --> Light
Heavy --> Medium + Speed Boost
I don’t know exact speed figures though, so I’m not sure if that alone would be enough.
I suppose it depends on how the animations, rigs, and models are tied together (or not). If it were up to me, I’d even be willing to swap the medium bodytype over to the light model/rig/animations, the heavy over to the medium model/rig/animations, and just ditch all of the heavy model/rig/animations just for the sake of getting the game into a playable state.
EDIT; Just noticed this:
Why the console gamer bashing? Go back a few years, and read how this forum was before the console gamers showed up. Look at how good SD games were before the console gamers showed up.
As for the rest, I have a better idea: http://www.splashdamage.com/forums/showthread.php/20209-Custom-Map-Nirvana-Reborn
[QUOTE=Crytiqal;372368]Says, the guy who evades all direct questions concerning his own experience with previous games etc.
The only “skill gap” would be that they arent looking on their radar and see you coming.
About the automatic voice chatter…
I sometimes hear: “watch out, he’s got a cortex bomb” or “hey, he is wearing my face, enemy in disguise!”
And I am like, who the **** is talking to me and WHERE is this happening?
It is totally useless.
Rather had player interactions then some automated voice coming from who knows[/QUOTE]Skill in brink is the blending of all elements of the gameplay, parkour movement, gunplay, objective understanding, and team strength, coordination, and communication into a singular talent and heightened awareness. High level Brink players are just that good. Know that they are gonna win 99% of the time, every time. Have a deep understanding how to break any hold n revel in cracking the code. Not something that can be explained to the closed-minded or folks who hide behind point n click as a paper-thin badge of self-proclaimed skill more smoke n mirror than actual. Stick to your comfort-zone, that way you don’t have to face the awful truth: you may struggle at Brink and have to learn. Deep down this game is too hard and too different for some.