This one sentence tells me all about you and furthermore which games you played.
hahahahhaa sure! Strange that I didn’t see you in a single match. Or is your uber pro clan just playing public?
You are just one out of thousand noobs here with a big mouth and no clue about what skill really is.
[QUOTE=.Chris.;372001]Not really, as already stated pressing F isn’t team work or cooperation, there isn’t anything hard about it either (no skill), what you perceive as a game mechanic that is too hard for COD players is most likely a mechanic they just simply don’t want to use.
I’d be interested to know what you regard as something skillful that is prevalent in Brink, I think those that have posted thus far in this topic and yourself have differing ideas of skill.[/QUOTE]The simple fact that you boil down the team work or cooperation in Brink to “pressing F”, tells me all I need to know about your skill level or team knowledge. You either don’t play Brink much, or struggle bad or both or don’t run with a solid team. Stick to older games you are more comfortable with or join up a clan or a group that plays Brink regularly. That’d be my suggestion. Then come back and talk about skill. 
[QUOTE=Rex;372002] hahahahhaa sure! Strange that I didn’t see you in a single match. Or is your uber pro clan just playing public?
You are just one out of thousand noobs here with a big mouth and no clue about what skill really is.[/QUOTE]
You’ll never find out as he plays on console.
Bit late but you shouldn’t have bitten back, just what he wanted, now we will get a flood of BHC members in derailing the topic, jimmy tried it on first page for example.
[QUOTE=Rex;372002]This one sentence tells me all about you and furthermore which games you played.
hahahahhaa sure! Strange that I didn’t see you in a single match. Or is your uber pro clan just playing public?
You are just one out of thousand noobs here with a big mouth and no clue about what skill really is.[/QUOTE]Ok, Uber Legend. Ha ha ha! My team’d beast through you old skool gamers and whoever else you can dig up from the grave.
[QUOTE=.Chris.;372006]You’ll never find out as he plays on console.
Bit late but you shouldn’t have bitten back, just what he wanted, now we will get a flood of BHC members in derailing the topic, jimmy tried it on first page for example.[/QUOTE]No, you just don’t want another perspective that destroys your little paper-thin wall you’ve built up. This thread started out as the PC whiner-line club. Saying Brink takes no skill discounts all the people who’ve put a lot of time and energy into playing the game and developing team chemistry and high level individual play combined. Come on. If the game took zero skill, the opposite would’ve happened: many many more casual gamers would be playing Brink. Its as simple as that. Go back and look at the number of peeps frustrated with the game basically being too hard, and all the complainers who couldn’t get out of spawn, or complete challenges, and the multitude of threads whining about team balance, and tell me there’s no skill in Brink. Please.
I think I’m going outside for a while, the world of the internet is too complex for me 
The problem here is more complicated than “nerf carb” can solve. I will state here openly that I accept you’re not suggesting that it is. What I’m seeing, though, are a lot of people who are going for the wrong targets when trying to fix Brink’s balance.
I keep reading people here suggesting that Heavies get more HP, get more damage on their guns, and all of it so the random number generator can further overwhelm any player input to make a heavy auto-win encounters with a light. You might get a 50-50 win/loss ratio this way, but it ain’t balance.
The entire gunplay system is broken. Movement is so slow and guns so inaccurate that dancing just isn’t that important. SMART doesn’t offer any value during a gunfight, because the canned animations are also so slow that trying is a deathtrap.
Movement is so slow and the map design such that escaping a gunfight alive to survive longer is nigh on impossible unless you camp behind cover at the end of a corridor. Rushing into unusual positions because you know you can escape with some quick thinking doesn’t happen.
So what do we have? We have guns that don’t shoot where they’re pointed. We have no way of evading bullets to tip the balance during a face to face confrontation. We have little incentive other than boredom to not camp cover at all opportunities.
Compare this to something like ETQW, where a Hyperblaster’s extended clip could let them keep pushing forward into a room, whilst the defenders had to fall back to reload briefly. The movement speed advantage of the AR users to dodge in a fight could be temporarily offset by the extra stamina of the heavy. That one thing, the extended clip, allowed the Hyperblaster to be more of a heavy than the heavies in Brink could ever hope to be.
Brink has asphyxiated all of the mechanisms that could have allowed the ‘heavy’ concept to fly. There’s little to no reason for light/medium players to push themselves into positions where the heavies’ advantages are advantages. Movement is so slow, and guns so inaccurate that all of the advantages of those heavy weapons have gotten lost in the RNG smog.
So you just make the guns accurate and up the player speed, right? The gun tweaks might work, might even be enough to turn Brink into a kinda fun game. The movement speed isn’t going to work, though, because the maps will start to feel even more cramped, and SD have said that there won’t be any geometry changes to maps. (They also said, IIRC, that they can’t change player speed because it’d mean recalculating SMART stuff.)
Eventually, I think either SD will give in and tune to guns to PC standards, or someone will learn to hack something that gives us it anyway. Even if that happens, and even with the lower damage guns, I think the game will start playing like CoD, because the movement speed is so slow and evasion so ineffective.
I don’t see any way out of this other than an SDK. Which isn’t in development right now, and probably isn’t going to be, if SD are already struggling to find funds to even patch the bugs that somehow made it through testing. All in all, it’s for this reason that I hope there isn’t a Brink 2; a sequel would probably tie SD to Bethesda, and SD desperately need to drop Bethesda like they were Activision. Brink sold copies on the strength of WET and QWET, but after Brink that’s not going to work again. I really don’t want to see SD go under, but they need to find a publisher that knows wtf it’s doing.
Of course. In what leagues do you play atm, or have you played? (A public server isn’t a league btw)
:rolleyes: facepalm Exactly this happened. Best example: You.
Ever thought of why all the good teams left this game? Because it was too hard?
Yeah, I am damn sure they were all frustrated about the complex gameplay and left.
If this is true, then I just realized that I wasted my time talking to a console player who talks about skill in Brink -.-
This was the most retarded post I read for the last 6 months. But I must admit, the players posting here (for example this wolfnemesis) fit perfect to Brink.
Exactly, he is one of the few people who do fit in SD/Bethesda’s picture of the lazy dumb gamer that isn’t willing to put any effort in and yet still feels like he did. Good for him.
Back on topic lads, ignore him and move on, was some nice points been made till he popped in.
shirosae, thanks for saying what I was thinking that I couldn’t explain properly.
This disclaimer was in the very first post. Is it that hard to keep your brown nose out of it?
shirosae, very well put.
ET:QW had it down…nuff said. I agree with a lot of what you say the gunplay is broken, if it wasn’t how is it that one minute I can aim and fire a shot standing still and it hits and the next shot aimed in exactly the same way misses entirely? Gunplay is broken there is no doubt about that, I think the “skill” in Brink is trying your best to counter this but to be honest it just seems to be luck most of the time.
However since I think we need to be realistic and because SD have pretty much hinted they don’t intend on making drastic changes I think the only route you can realistically see them taking is to tweak things and one of those would be to try and separate out the body types, separate out the three levels of weapons and try to make each distinction a lot more specific then it is at present.
At the moment the distinction between the body types is so remote that its not worth mentioning a light body type seems to be able to take just as much punishment as a heavy, plus they have the bonus of speed which is why most people play lights.
The levels in weapons makes a pistol as good or better than a sniper rifle. An SMG heavier than a Gotlung. An AR weaker then a rapid fire Sniper rifle.
These things can be addressed and relatively easily. I don’t think you will ever see SD make the changes that I know we would like because I think the game has got to a point that its no longer worth the investment to them. Yes they will support it, yes they will tweak it but I think that just like ET:QW its just going to run on what it has now forever more.
[QUOTE=Verticae;372025]This disclaimer was in the very first post. Is it that hard to keep your brown nose out of it?
[/QUOTE]
Yes sorry, I’ll put him on ignore.
I haven’t posted in this thread since I am a fanboy console gamer, but I understand why most PC players would be unhappy with the mechanics and gameplay of Brink. But on the consoles, there are two points that are valid.
This game is harder, or perhaps, more complicated than most console FPS games. I had ten RL friends try Brink. Only 4 liked it. The rest said it was either too difficult, they want TDM, or they’d rather pilot tanks/helis. They didn’t like the multiple Objective style gameplay. Too confusing.
There is an obvious difference between players with skill and newbs in Brink. It’s a double whammy as new players not only have to learn how to control their player, and aim/shoot, but also they have to learn each map’s objectives to complete them efficiently. When I play in pub standard with a friend or more who know what they’re doing, we can usually wipe up the other team. This does not happen in CoD or BFBC2 or Halo as much, since the mechanics in those games are much simpler. Just point n shoot for the head. Even with the multitudes of average lazy console gamers playing the big 3, we’ll more likely run into a good group of players that wipe the floor with us. If Brink were as easy to master, then why aren’t we running into the same type of competition on XBL? The only team that can regularly beat our group is the SHFT guys.
I am looking forward to trying Brink out in a few months on the PC. I am building a new powerhouse soon in prep for BF3. I don’t know if I’ll be as frustrated as most of the PC gamers here, but I’ll sure like the graphics better.
Speed and the tiny hitbox and much better SMART stuff. I’ll be shooting at a light, most of my Gotlung bullets miss, they’ll double back around a corner, and by the time I get there, I look around and they’ve gone! Wtf? Oh, they jumped up on some ledge and now they’re Carb-9ing and grenade shooting me in the head. Dammit.
[QUOTE=.Chris.;372023]Back on topic lads, ignore him and move on, was some nice points been made till he popped in.
shirosae, thanks for saying what I was thinking that I couldn’t explain properly.[/QUOTE]
Justice League II: Just Hardcore.
The thing the fanboys don’t get is that it’s not that we don’t care about Brink, it’s that we care about SD more.
On an unrelated note, the “You cannot view this post because the user is on your ignore list” message is freakin’ huge on the new forum software.
[QUOTE=Verticae;372025]This disclaimer was in the very first post. Is it that hard to keep your brown nose out of it?
shirosae, very well put.[/QUOTE]
It’s nice to know that even though the fanboys don’t get it, at least some of the people in SD do, and they appreciate that we’re trying to help them.
I think SD need to be realistic: Their behaviour now is going to impact how much trust people are willing to show them with their next game. If they leave Brink as is for the sake of ‘working as intended’ vision silliness, they might as well be putting a gun to the head of their next game.
On the other hand, if they can manage to listen to the players and get at least some sort of change out there that satisfies whoever is left, all they need to do is demonstrate that they have a publisher with a clue for their next game and they get most of those players back on board.
As far as the bodytype stuff goes, I think they need to do the opposite: reduce the differences in body types. Bring the speeds and HP much closer. Make guns shoot straight. Make the metabolism boost always on, because we need as much speed as we can get and presumably SMART works with light speed + metab boost.
Heavy guns should have range and large clips. Give the guns enough stability that they function as LMG with a scope without going mad with recoil, or pseudo AR up close. Heavy players should be able to move almost as fast as lights, have only slightly more HP, and maybe a bit more supply.
Light guns should be accurate, not lose accuracy when moving, and have predictable vertical recoil to encourage burst firing and give the player’s brain something else to be managing alongside movement. The price the SMG/Pistol pays for the mobility is stamina; the clip size should be limited to force them to hit and run. Light players get full access to all the SMART moves, slightly less supply.
Hopefully the speed boost combined with the accuracy buff is enough to make dancing effective. If it is, you then have two major roles:
Lights are slightly poorer at doing supply stuff. Buffing, planting, etc. They’re slightly better at getting in and getting kills, but need to hit and run to stay effective.
Heavies are slightly poorer at getting where they need to go. They can’t use the smart moves, so they need to use other (potentially more dangerous and/or predictable?) routes. They have more supply, so they work better as a support role. They also have the most range and stamina on their guns, so they tend to push through positions if the player can aim, just because their fire output will outlast everyone else.
Congrats, the heavies now represent your support player, and the lights your rambo player. Both players can move at almost the same speed, and have almost the same HP. Dancing is therefore just about as effective for/against both, and weapon damage is pretty much balance for/against both. You then do your fine tweaking with weapon stats.
Medium bodytype is then a bit of a wildcard, depending on weapon choice. They can get into some of those routes you’d think are ‘light only’, but also have guns with a larger clip, and slightly more supply. They’re also a little faster than the heavies, and can SMART to places they can’t.
Take your DLC maps, and build them with the idea that Heavy/Light needs to be advantaged/disadvantaged by your route layout. Also take your DLC maps, and put them into big DLC packs, aside from your other Barbie stuff, so they’re sold like pseudo-expansion packs and it looks less like you’re trying to make PC players do the Xbox Live Truffle Shuffle. Rejig the buffs to make sense with all of the above. Perhaps get rid of the PRESS F TO TEAMWORK single target stuff, and replace those with more AoE things like the Laz Nade.
AND THEN RIDE A UNICORN TO EUROPA, because the above is all obviously a fiction if it’d work so smoothly. It’s the best I can think of, though, with the constraints SD are under with Brink atm.
[QUOTE=shirosae;372053]txt
[/QUOTE]
Well said. Light, medium and heavies should all move at the same speed with very little health difference so dodging becomes more important. But lights have access to all the smart moves with lower supply, while heavies have no access to smart but more supply (better guns too) and medium is in between.
About guns, AR should have no spread when using ADS and very little spread when hip firing. For SMGs lower the damage and reduce spread. Heavy weapons should have very little spread (while hip firing) and no recoil (big guy think he can hold the gun in place 
)
I assume you’re talking about Speed Boost, rather than Metabolism. Metabolism reduces the time it takes for you to regenerate health, no affect on movement speed.
Aside from that a very well-constructed post. I’d want to play the interpretation of Brink you described in your post. It sounds more like movement and flanking would be a bigger role as well as giving Mediums and Heavies something to excel at other than being slower, bigger targets.
Regards,
Nexo
Shirosae brings up a lot of good points. It really sucks that something as crucial as the movement speed per class, a fix which could radically change the game for the better, is unable to be changed because of having to retest all of SMART.
The problems with the weapon balance will be lessened with an across the board spread reduction, before even touching damage values. Lights with SMGs already have damage falloff to make them somewhat ineffective at long range, but lights can move so much faster than the other classes that closing distance is a non-issue. However if Assault Rifles and other medium/heavy weapons were actually accurate, lights could be taken down far faster at distance before they get the chance to spray you down with a Carb or Galactic.
The thing is they still wouldn’t be fun to play. The reason I (and most other players I believe) are playing light isn’t solely because they are the strongest class wrt speed and weapons atm, it is mainly because their movement speed is actually fun. Even IF the medium weapons were effective, I still wouldn’t like to play them because of how terribly slow the player speed is.
And this points out yet another inherent contraction in Brink’s design. Why go through all the trouble to make the Smart system and focus/market the movement possibilities of your game, then make 2 out of 3 of the classes unable to fully utilize it? It makes no sense. Mediums and Heavies are already highly handicapped with player movement speed, the further restrictions on their movement in Smart are unnecessary.
Of course, since the movement speed can’t/won’t be changed, it will end up being left to weapon spread and HP numbers to balance the game to make the other weight classes more playable. However, making them playable with regards to balance doesn’t make them fun to play, they’ll still control like trudging through a swamp.
Yes, sorry; good catch.
I haven’t played Medic much, because the whole f-key thing drives me nuts.