'Skill' in Brink

(Crytiqal) #281

wolfnemesis75 could you stop being a little cheerleader girl and actually bring something to the table?

There are still a few questions directed to you that require your attention. When you are finished with those, feel free to come back and discuss

(DarkangelUK) #282

[QUOTE=Crytiqal;373319]wolfnemesis75 could you stop being a little cheerleader girl and actually bring something to the table?

There are still a few questions directed to you that require your attention. When you are finished with those, feel free to come back and discuss[/QUOTE]
I agree, good points Cryitcal, dropping the sit-rep how it is

(sereNADE) #283

Wolfnemesis, would you please record some of your gameplay? shaky cam will do.

(sereNADE) #284

unintended mechanics are a special occurrence in video games that either become accepted by any particular game community at large and grant a benefit to any willing to master it or become labeled an unfair exploit. when a community accepts it is then fair to play it in discussions of skill. It is sad then when a developer then tries to take the good stuff away or fudge it into the regular mechanics (i think tribes players grumbled over this?)

(sereNADE) #285

What are some amazing maneuvers a skilled person can do in a regular match of brink that the average person can’t? Most kills seems directly related to how much you shoot, not how well you aim. Ummmm, after badmojo showed me his grenade shooting spam I got the skill and did it my first try and most subsequent tries. Pretty easy. Regular jumps are restricted so no trickjumps. The only thing I have seen so far which truly amazed me was how a select few I encountered had enough patience to lemming through really long construct or hack objectives. No skill or thought involved when the objective is locked in location and in animation and no skill involved to shoot somebody locked in place performing an objective. It’s even worse when you think back to constructing the mining laser in etqw! There was so much more involved and you had options in both offense and defense centered around just the completion of that objective. you could choose your side, you could move back and forth and stroy up as you went along. Sometimes you would have to jump into it, trigger a mine and then get away from it and then come back again. Defending it was just as involving because if the strogg was tricky you had to get in front of the laser to line up your shot if they were going back and forth on the little incline.

So, again, I ask you, what is something totally amazing in brink that is too difficult for the average player in a regular match?

You don’t even need to answer that because it speaks volumes when someone like wolfnemesis talks up BRINK all day instead of someone like dommafia.

(INF3RN0) #286

[QUOTE=.Chris.;373160]The rest of your reply was fair enough but was there really a need for all that? :slight_smile:
[/QUOTE]

I’m sorry but when I read wolfnem’s posts it’s like omgwaaaw… some of the SD devs thank this guy for his support?! I am so convinced that every bad design choice in Brink was a direct result of ignorant spammers in previous titles though; the non-majority crowd that just put in 10x the effort in crying for impulsive game changes. Since the ETQW forums are dead I can’t post some links here, but my memory serves me well. Imagine SD reading a thread about how vehicles do not belong in ET games, followed by logical reasons of Vehicle vs Infantry game play. Then you have another thread where people are screaming to have the respawn ability to be removed because someone is denying them a kill or that the weapon system is too difficult to compete with more competent players or that being at the bottom of the XP list is making them cut themselves. As if something like “rambo players” were as big of a problem as some people made them seem to be… it’s all spur of the moment demands with a complete lack of thinking. The solution we got for that ended up nerfing gun-play and adding buffs… and what a great trade off that was. It’s stuff like the “rambo medic” topic that impulsive players demanded to receive drastic consequences, without taking the time to really examine the problem correctly. Out of all these things I can confidently say that the “force people to play correctly” and “remove personal ability from the picture” method was an awful solution.

I just have to wonder how SD separates the real issues from the uneducated impulsive requests that seem to have found priority in Brink’s design. ET games are successful because of their simple system of balance and their incredibly high skill cap in nearly every facet of the game. The people that play ET instead of CoD are the ones who desire a difficult and highly competitive game that has an incredibly wide spread player base skill groups. It should be obvious now that ET had more to it than just classes and objectives, otherwise why would people play it over something like BF? I am sure that SD thought Brink was going to satisfy the mass complaints in their previous games, as well as grabbing the attention of the main streamers. As it turned out Brink proved to be less of an ET style game than Wolf2009, and as to be expected the majority of the main streamers bought the game, but went back to CoD.

Brink should have never tried to imitate main stream games or dilute any of the original game mechanics. If you want to make an ET game you shouldn’t try to make it pretend to be anything else than it is, otherwise new-comers to the genre will never come to the realization that it’s an entirely different game than what they are used to and the old-schoolers aren’t going to be satisfied. Anyone who tells people to pipe down on the critiquing about what Brink did to the classic style is essentially pushing the game away from its roots and deserve an e-forum-biatch-slap. Without criticism games would never improve upon their original ideas. The true fans of ET games play them because they love the game play and don’t require a cookie to motivate them or a medal to reward them nor do they quit because it’s the hardest game they have ever played.

(R_Shackelford) #287

They’re not really “trick jumps,” but there are some pretty slick SMART maneuvers you can pull if you’re comfortable with the system. I’m no pro, but I was pretty pleased with a move I pulled in the detonator room on Founders’ Tower, where there was an enemy on the corner platform in the upper right (if you’re standing at the objective facing out into the room), and I SMARTed up some boxes, mantled over the railing, circle-strafed around the enemy, killing him, vaulted the railing on the other side of the pillar, hit the ground with a slide under some gunfire, tossed a quick rez, and then vaulted up and over into the objective and killed another dude trying to plant a mine. (incidentally, as far as the rez goes, I think learning the best way to deal with the tempermental buff-highlight can take some skill in and of itself)

Using SMART to evade enemy fire can take some skill, too. I’d say that a lot of the “skill” in Brink is about maneuvering with SMART, no so much the gunplay.

(Nexolate) #288

Well to be fair, anyone who’s played any game for a bit will be able to beat complete novices.

I think the point he’s trying to get at is that past learning the fundamentals of the game and discovering which body/weapon/abilities combo is the best, there’s not really much more to get better at. That’s all.

Regards,
Nexo

(RabidAnubis) #289

[QUOTE=sereNADE;373229]Average skill here. Tried all classes and most weapons. Played with most abilities. Whored objectives and played for some kills. Played with cvars on my own servers. Watched multitudes of full holds on BRINKTV. Installed the DLC. After all of that, this average skilled PUB vet can safely say that everyone saying BRINK is a low skill game is absolutely correct. I have seen and done it all in under 100 hours and there is between very little to nothing that entices me to practice or improve and anything I see someone else do I can perform just as easily.

Still don’t believe it’s a low skill game? Let me explain from the trickjumping point of view. In some games you could learn the nuance of movement in each jump you took, increasing your speed and or height; enabling you to access places you wouldn’t by simply jumping. It took practice and often required good timing, nothing casual or accessible about it, it took skill. Now, this is something I have cried over in other threads. Examine the jump in BRINK. A simple forward jump… just try it. Did you notice that? Very little to no directional change possible in the air (that’s fine) or upon landing (that’s terrible). Did you notice the other thing? You stopped midair! That’s right, you stopped midair and fell straight down in an unnatural and broken arc. BRINK adds another level of artificial restriction to a simple jump. BRINK has a built in invisible wall cvar for every non-standing jump (which the majority of all jumps will be).

The only satisfaction I get from the game now is sniping with a scoped ritche; that is just plain wrong but also the simple truth.

Low skill checklist:

*big weapon spread
*locked animation objectives
*locked location objectives
*restricted jumps
*voip hindrance
*magic button (f)[/QUOTE]

I agree it’s low on skill but not for those reasons.

Magic button IS good, but they should make wall jumping harder.

There is one jump in this game that shows what the standard jump should be like. I sort of want to record it.

(xdc) #290

I only play brink after it has a few updates, I find it boring now. It is correct that brink has a low skill ceiling, nothing compared to ETQW, wolfenstein, quake, cs 1.6, etc but what do you expect the game IS designed for the consoles.

This is one of the reasons I hate consoles (not the players), they have been destroying the fast paced skill action games, for example doom 2 -> doom 3, quake 4 single player, wolfenstein 2009, soldier of fortune 3, etc list goes on. Not only this but the consoles do hold back the technological progress on the game engines, because the companies have limits as the console can’t be upgraded. PS3/360 have been released about 6 years ago… Doom 4 will run at 30fps on the consoles

I’m starting to lose respect for companies that favor the consoles for their certain game, like brink. The console mechanics are obvious, and annoying to PC players, theirs no reason that PC players have to play handicap as if their mouse/keyboard cant handle it.

I still can’t believe that i’m playing games that are 10+ years old on my PC because the other games have been developed for the consoles in mind, with their lower skill ceiling on PC. If anyone hasn’t noticed the balance issues are more obvious on the PC than on the console for brink, because their is more room for ‘skill’, we are not handicap to a limited amount of movement/aim, etc

(RabidAnubis) #291

Consoles support tactical play a lot more due to the lack of a skill ceiling. (Low one) but certain games know how to take advantage of this, like Socom. But I do think that most games should be a PC or console exclusive, as many games are being messed up one way or the other (Like BF3) and I don’t think MAG would have worked on a PC. I know you guys have good examples, but you do understand what I’m saying. It’s sort of like how the strategy games industry KNOWS not to make console games. It wasn’t meant to be that way. Counter strike would have never worked on a console.

Hopefully the PS4 and Xbox whatever will come out soon. Sony will put the newest one out and it will put other machines to shame. Until the PC’s can afford ably get the same option. Maybe consoles should be able to switch out their RAM (Made by the console company so optimization isn’t F’d up.) and they would still get the money for it. Initially, Consoles wait on the PC because they have to get more to run the same thing (1 GB Vram compared to 128mb of VRAM console) but once it becomes affordable the PC goes ahead. I know this because my 4 year old PC is out of date. I think somewhere along the line PC programmers forgot how to optimize at all.

I simply hope they stock up the consoles enough to keep them up for their 6 year life. Sony sort of slipped on this one, which they didn’t do last time as much.

(Humate) #292

Brink is essentially a house built for midgets.
Even someone of normal height like Verticae‎, is going to have to constantly duck his head.
So really, it doesnt matter whether he’s taller than those who live there. :stroggtapir:

(sereNADE) #293

can you fudge client prediction with -1 to avoid reg? if so, brink is a high skill game.

(St NickelStew) #294

Huh?? Neither of the two preceding posts really make any sense.

Is “skill” about being able to do something “amazing” that a novice cannot do, or is it about being better at lots of little things that can help your team win? I think the latter. Those things can include knowing where one can use SMART and being able to consistently use those maneuvers during matches. Or being a better shot – even with random deviation a better shot is going to be a better shot.

(Kalbuth) #295

Movement wise, I still don’t master strafe jumps in ETQW to get past certain high obstacles, after years of playing it. I always screw up either the timing of the jump, or the rotation during the jump, or … smtg :slight_smile:
In Brink, as soon as you are shown where to jump, you CAN do it. Press the SMART key at the correct place … Even the chaining of moves is just about going to the correct place to press the SMART button.
Just a little example of the difference between both. You don’t have to learn “how” to do it in Brink anymore. Just where…

and no, at some point, with too many spread, being a better shot will not help you

(St NickelStew) #296

[QUOTE=Kalbuth;373682]Movement wise, I still don’t master strafe jumps in ETQW to get past certain high obstacles, after years of playing it. I always screw up either the timing of the jump, or the rotation during the jump, or … smtg :slight_smile:
In Brink, as soon as you are shown where to jump, you CAN do it. Press the SMART key at the correct place … Even the chaining of moves is just about going to the correct place to press the SMART button.
Just a little example of the difference between both. You don’t have to learn “how” to do it in Brink anymore. Just where…

and no, at some point, with too many spread, being a better shot will not help you[/QUOTE]

There are places, particularly in Container City, where only a person with practice and skill and a series of wall-jumps can go. Maybe there aren’t enough such places across all maps, but those places are there.

(Crytiqal) #297

Container City, when the bot is picked up by the crane and dropped of at the other side, there is a small ledge where the enemy can stand on and shoot you from (behind the bot dropspot). You can get on there.

Knowing this doesn’t make me “skilled”.

(R_Shackelford) #298

[QUOTE=Crytiqal;373831]Container City, when the bot is picked up by the crane and dropped of at the other side, there is a small ledge where the enemy can stand on and shoot you from (behind the bot dropspot). You can get on there.

Knowing this doesn’t make me “skilled”.[/QUOTE]

But getting to that spot quickly, on the first try, every time, might. (I’m not sure offhand how difficult it is to get up to that ledge from the offensive side)

(Cep) #299

Trust me its not difficult.

They are all correct the skill ceiling is about as high as a rather small pebble…

…that’s underground.

Once you see a jump by someone in Brink, it usually takes about 5 minutes to figure out what they did and master it.

(Crytiqal) #300

It’s because when using SMART there is so much room for error from the player where the game just says, oh you wanted to get ON the ledge? np, ill smart you up there with the ledge grab or whatever. Great job