'Skill' in Brink

[Verticae]

“lack of skill” and “no skill” are not the same thing. As I’ve mentioned before, just because a game doesn’t require as much skill to master as another, doesn’t mean it requires no skill at all.

Definitely not something I’ve ever tried to say. I’d personally word it that while Brink takes some skill to play well, it’s negligible compared to the skill it takes to play other titles.

[RabidAnubis]

Perhaps they could make SMART harder by making it if you don’t press X to wall jump at the EXACT right time, you can’t press it until you hit ground again? Just an idea?

Here we go. That’s a good one for a start. Now, what else do you guys suggest to make SMART be harder?

@ETQW players

Okay. So I see what you mean, but in this situation let me ask you something. If the world’s best players on the individual scale went against the world’s most tactical players, who would win?

[DarkangelUK]

Your questions are just getting totally obscure now. What’s considered ‘the best’ to make someone the best? Best at what? To me the best is a combination of being good at all aspects… aiming, moving, tactics, map control, predicting the enemy. I don’t get the point of your question… or the reason for asking it.

[RabidAnubis]

Yeah. I’m heading into pointless theory now. Okay. Back to what the point of this was.

So what would you do to make Brink more difficult, but still simple? What would you do to make tactics more rewarding?

[St_NickelStew]

It was the fact the veterans had battle sense and were able to move more fluidly or shoot more accurate, because they taught themselves how to do it. It didn’t make the game less fun for the new player, it made them want to get better and learn to beat that guy.

This can happen in the vast majority of FPS games, and certainly can happen in Brink. Maybe it doesn’t occur to the extent it did in fondly remembered games, but it absolutely occurs in Brink.

The facts are that I am 44 years old and didn’t begin playing FPS games until I was about 40. I am never going to be better with the sticks as a slayer than most of the people I play against. It took me several hundred hours playing Bad Company and Bad Company 2 to get to the point where I am consistently at the top of the leaderboard at the end of a match. Mostly I have learned how to earn all of the junk-points I can, including re-supplies, repairs, and revives, and playing hard for objectives. I am the ultimate team player and therefore get to play with some pretty good players. However, I would also suggest that I have acquired some skill at objective-based FPS games (as opposed to more twitch-based FPS games, which I don’t bother playing).

Like Brink. Someone a page or three ago said that they could drop into a game of Brink mid-match and still wind up atop the leaderboard at the end of the match. This is not evidence of a shallow game, as the poster suggested, but of the poster’s personal skill at Brink and probably at FPS games in general.

Interestingly, the old PC guys who played Battlefield 2 defend the random deviation that existed in the gunplay, arguing that it takes skill to adapt. On this forum the old PC guys want the absence of random deviation so that the skilled can be victorious in gunfights. So there isn’t general consistency regarding what constitutes “skillful” play.

In the current generation of FPS games, it seems as if game developers are removing from games the combat techniques (such as dolphin diving) which were not intended gameplay mechanics. If becoming “skillful” involves the mastery of such unintended combat techniques, I (for one) am rather glad that developers are removing them.

[WindDrake]

Going to chime in with my 0.02 after putting 32hrs on this game.

Balance is aweful, Carb-9 grenade-shooting light class, and the rampant, unchecked cheating is wrecking this game.

Removed from my PC today. Sorry Splash Damage, you guys failed. Hard. I want my $25 back.

[Fetter]

What “rampant, unchecked cheating?” I have yet to see anyone actually hacking on a server in BRINK, though if I recall correctly I saw a video purportedy demonstrating an aimbot a while back.

[RabidAnubis]

You know what?

Brink is awesome. This is what we discussed in the mic today-

Cheesecake
Cheeserake
Cheesesteak
The reason why we mourn the dead is no more Christmas presents.
Hot-Wire
XXX (There’s a place for it in brink)
Kelp beer
Parkour
Complaining about this thread
Supporting this thread
Cheesecake
Humans eat food to poop.
RabidAnubis needs to stop running around so much
Theorizing that Brink is really just an intense paintball match.
Chen is evil.
Blowing up founder’s tower is !FUN!
Everyone is just messing around
DELIVER THE OBJECTIVE!
There’s someone BEHIND YOU! (What?) Gunshots
That I am really a god.

Very tactical things XD Thank you for your time. Bows

[Cep]

What “rampant, unchecked cheating?” I have yet to see anyone actually hacking on a server in BRINK, though if I recall correctly I saw a video purportedy demonstrating an aimbot a while back.

I wonder if he was one of the three noobs screaming “HACKERS!” in the games I was playing not so long ago.

[INF3RN0]

Wow this thread sure grew while I was gone… and as I can see it’s mostly filled with wolfnem’s garbage. As the thread apparently turned into the usual “whiners are baddies” argument, I suppose someone should just point out the most obvious already. I can go ask all of the top teams in Brink ESL and Qcon if they enjoy the game they were competing in and they will say “Oh no, this game has that hopeful “potential” sure (as in if it were made to actually play like ET), but when the cash tournaments are cut… well then Brink loses the little appeal it had left”. Most of the so called “haters” are better at the game than any of those that play on a regular basis, so get it through your thick console skulls that the learning curve isn’t the problem. The problem is that Brink does not in the least deserve the title of the “next step” in the ET style genre because of the fact that it is at least 3 steps back in the wrong direction.

People that criticize don’t want to see this genre die or continue in the direction Brink is taking it. Brink essentially takes the classic style and makes it more accessible, appealing, and rewarding to the ignorant casual gamer. If SD really needs to change the way their games play in order to survive in the game industry, they shouldn’t even associate games like Brink with those in the past or even try to make them similar. Having played previous SD games and reading over and over “oh we learned from our mistakes in our other games”, Brink just makes you go WTF is this!? If the whole ET genre is taking a nose dive from here on out, I guess that’s fate. With the massive ignorant loyalty from people like wolfnem, Brink would still have 20 second spawn times for both O/D and who knows what else. It’s these kind of people I blame for the way Brink turned out too. I swear to god that Brink is the love child of all that ignorant QQ spam you would see in the past game forums from people who completely misunderstood vital game mechanics and would complain that allowing such a high gun game skill cap ruined the game!? I always ignored that crap because I figured SD knew their game’s well enough to never take that crap seriously.

SD might eventually realize that people didn’t stop playing Brink because it was “too unique” or “not CoD”, but because they were fans of their past work and were utterly disappointed by the game itself. Sure they reeled in extra sales from the people who were tricked into thinking it would be Team Fortress, BL, CoD, etc. But the majority of people who would actually stick with the game were the one’s who played/supported SD games from the beginning. Moral of the story is… when you gain your popularity because of the product you make, you better stick to the formula or just completely sell out to that other popular brand, otherwise your going to end up with a handful of half-wits that would kiss you on the mouth for giving them a dog turd on Christmas .

[Nexolate]

Text.

Coming from a background having not played any previous SD games, I found Brink a refreshing take when compared to modern shooters. This is probably why some people would defend it to the extent that they do.

That being said, I know the pain of other games from the same company and sequels that were made to be “more accessible”. It’s a horrible thing to see your favourite company start removing depth. Splinter Cell: Conviction anyone?

All we can hope is that they get convincing results back from their reduced weapons spread testing. Otherwise there isn’t a huge amount on the market these days that offers the kind of depth that Brink barely even scraped the surface with.

Regards,
Nexo

[Chris2]

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;373141]so get it through your thick console skulls
ignorant casual gamer.
With the massive ignorant loyalty from people like wolfnem,
I swear to god that Brink is the love child of all that ignorant QQ spam [/QUOTE]

The rest of your reply was fair enough but was there really a need for all that?

Thing is, although there isn’t anyway to check/prove it, player retention on the consoles is almost as bad as the PC from what I’ve been hearing so it’s not like those ‘ignorant casual console gamers’ are having a ball either and cant be used as a scapegoat for SD’s shortcomings.

Like what was said a few times now if Brink was the next best thing on consoles we wouldn’t have leg to stand on here, however that’s not the case, something went wrong across the board, PC and consoles alike.

[Crytiqal]

I think we can all agree on that

[sereNADE]

Average skill here. Tried all classes and most weapons. Played with most abilities. Whored objectives and played for some kills. Played with cvars on my own servers. Watched multitudes of full holds on BRINKTV. Installed the DLC. After all of that, this average skilled PUB vet can safely say that everyone saying BRINK is a low skill game is absolutely correct. I have seen and done it all in under 100 hours and there is between very little to nothing that entices me to practice or improve and anything I see someone else do I can perform just as easily.

Still don’t believe it’s a low skill game? Let me explain from the trickjumping point of view. In some games you could learn the nuance of movement in each jump you took, increasing your speed and or height; enabling you to access places you wouldn’t by simply jumping. It took practice and often required good timing, nothing casual or accessible about it, it took skill. Now, this is something I have cried over in other threads. Examine the jump in BRINK. A simple forward jump… just try it. Did you notice that? Very little to no directional change possible in the air (that’s fine) or upon landing (that’s terrible). Did you notice the other thing? You stopped midair! That’s right, you stopped midair and fell straight down in an unnatural and broken arc. BRINK adds another level of artificial restriction to a simple jump. BRINK has a built in invisible wall cvar for every non-standing jump (which the majority of all jumps will be).

The only satisfaction I get from the game now is sniping with a scoped ritche; that is just plain wrong but also the simple truth.

Low skill checklist:

*big weapon spread
*locked animation objectives
*locked location objectives
*restricted jumps
*voip hindrance
*magic button (f)

[SinDonor]

Good stuff

Agreed! Good stuff, Nickel!

[wolfnemesis75]

[QUOTE=SinDonor;373231]Agreed! Good stuff, Nickel![/QUOTE]Yeah. I concur St Nick!

[DarkangelUK]

More focus on the wrong area going on here. No ones complaining that new players can feel useful, the issues come when the good players are being brought down to their level and held there by artificial restraints that can’t be broken.

[Verticae]

This can happen in the vast majority of FPS games, and certainly can happen in Brink. Maybe it doesn’t occur to the extent it did in fondly remembered games, but it absolutely occurs in Brink.

Not even near the scale it did in other games. It’s like saying your house is just ‘less large than China’.

Mostly I have learned how to earn all of the junk-points I can, including re-supplies, repairs, and revives, and playing hard for objectives. I am the ultimate team player and therefore get to play with some pretty good players. However, I would also suggest that I have acquired some skill at objective-based FPS games (as opposed to more twitch-based FPS games, which I don’t bother playing).

Hate to break it to you, but you never got to play with the ‘very good players’. You got to play with the decent pub players - sure, I’m more than willing to believe that. But the very good players were playing competition, and in high-end BF2 competition, being able to shoot is more than a minor requirement. I also find it a strong statement to believe you’re the ‘ultimate team player’, since that’s subjective like you wouldn’t believe.

Fact is, when I’m playing ETQW, I look for my teammates to cover the angles I can’t. I look for them to heal/resupply where necessary, cover certain approaches, etcetera. In return, I do the same thing for them. If your aim is bad to the point where you effectively consider not shooting your main skill, then covering an approach is pretty hard. Consider yourself a teamplayer all you want, but when you can’t hold your own, you’re not going to be able to do much.

Someone a page or three ago said that they could drop into a game of Brink mid-match and still wind up atop the leaderboard at the end of the match. This is not evidence of a shallow game, as the poster suggested, but of the poster’s personal skill at Brink and probably at FPS games in general.

Yes, it is evidence of a shallow game. WhenI don’t play the game since the DLC due to the timeout bug, but I can go on an unfamiliar PC, cfg, at 10 fps and get most kills, I’m pretty damn sure it’s not my skill. If I were to try that in any comparable game, I’d get my ass handed to me on a platter.

Interestingly, the old PC guys who played Battlefield 2 defend the random deviation that existed in the gunplay, arguing that it takes skill to adapt. On this forum the old PC guys want the absence of random deviation so that the skilled can be victorious in gunfights. So there isn’t general consistency regarding what constitutes “skillful” play.

Comparing highsens twitch games to lowsens tracking ones is apples and oranges.

In the current generation of FPS games, it seems as if game developers are removing from games the combat techniques (such as dolphin diving) which were not intended gameplay mechanics. If becoming “skillful” involves the mastery of such unintended combat techniques, I (for one) am rather glad that developers are removing them.

Dolphin diving was removed because the game tried to emulate a sense of realism. Brink, Quake, and similar titles do no such thing. Again, apples and oranges.

Props and added rep for actually trying to make a decent point, rather than some people here.

[St_NickelStew]

Yes, it is evidence of a shallow game. WhenI don’t play the game since the DLC due to the timeout bug, but I can go on an unfamiliar PC, cfg, at 10 fps and get most kills, I’m pretty damn sure it’s not my skill. If I were to try that in any comparable game, I’d get my ass handed to me on a platter.

On this point I will continue to disagree, and we may have to agree to disagree.

To me such examples provide evidence of two things: #1) You are skilled at Brink, and probably skilled at FPS games in general. #2) The “skill ceiling” of Brink is high enough to reward your superior skill with kills and points-earned.

If you are doing better than those you are playing against, it must be your skill. The game isn’t similarly rewarding those playing against you or with you, because your score is higher than those around you. It also reflects the skill of those you were playing with/against, which is apparently lower than those you are used to playing against. However, that Brink allowed your own skill to be reflected in points earned should be considered a good thing, I would think.

Comparing highsens twitch games to lowsens tracking ones is apples and oranges.

Which is Brink, and which is Battlefield (let’s use BC2 as the measuring stick here as that is the one I am most familiar with)? Is the PC disappointment with Brink that it isn’t the former? I would consider both Brink and BC2 to be the latter. It’s similarities to BC2 are what attracted me to the game in the first place, so I was not disappointed.

[wolfnemesis75]

[QUOTE=St NickelStew;373301]On this point I will continue to disagree, and we may have to agree to disagree.

To me such examples provide evidence of two things: #1) You are skilled at Brink, and probably skilled at FPS games in general. #2) The “skill ceiling” of Brink is high enough to reward your superior skill with kills and points-earned.

If you are doing better than those you are playing against, it must be your skill. The game isn’t similarly rewarding those playing against you or with you, because your score is higher than those around you. It also reflects the skill of those you were playing with/against, which is apparently lower than those you are used to playing against. However, that Brink allowed your own skill to be reflected in points earned should be considered a good thing, I would think.

Which is Brink, and which is Battlefield (let’s use BC2 as the measuring stick here as that is the one I am most familiar with)? Is the PC disappointment with Brink that it isn’t the former? I would consider both Brink and BC2 to be the latter. It’s similarities to BC2 are what attracted me to the game in the first place, so I was not disappointed.[/QUOTE]All good points, St. Nicklestew. Dropping the knowledge like St. Nick bringing toys to all the little children!