Simple idea for a new Respawn System...

(PixelTwitch) #1

So, we have had lots of little chats about spawn systems with no one coming up with something that more than a hand full of people agree with (bar the longer spawn time argument), however, I feel that going back to basics could be a good place to start. Need to thank Bitey and Zaccubus for their ideas on the respawn systems as this is a hybrid of Mine and theirs.

SIMPLE!
When you die it takes 7.5seconds to respawn.
If someone else dies they get the time remaining from that inital 7.5sec + 2.5sec for their death.
If the whole team dies the last person adds 5sec to the timer.

7.5 + 2.5 + 2.5 + 2.5 + 5 = 20 seconds max time.

You can lower these numbers for the attacking team…

5 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 4 = 15sec

If someone is revived it removes 2.5 seconds from the timer. If the whole team is revived the timer resets to 0.
No real chance to abuse as pre-killing or team-killing would still not really be worth it.
Revives have more value as they would reduce the rest of your teams spawn time also.
The 5 seconds on full wipe would give attackers time to get into position/plant in order to negate distance of defender spawn and the “unlucky” defender respawn within 1second thing.

Self kill when you have +75% hp would not add any time to the respawn wave. meaning lone players can choose to self kill instead of adding the +5 if they are the last player or respawn with team to regroup.

Please leave your feedback, including reasons why you do not like it on a personal level, issues you can see such as abuse or even if you DO like it :D.

(stealth6) #2

Is this for pub, comp or both? For pub I’m just thinking what happens when you get team wiped 5 times in a row…

(prophett) #3

Since maps are normally more bias toward the defending team, what would shift that bias to the attacking team?

(PixelTwitch) #4

Well in pub in general the kills are futher spread out… (think a dev could confirm this)
So because of more random positions the idea of everyone killing at the same time is not really that viable (unless your spawn camping them) in my experiance though full wipes are not that common… Also, unless they get wiped in a VERY short period of time the overall time respawning could be reduced overall. The flip side (if i am wrong and they keep getting wiped) you can tweak the times in public vs matchmaking but even if you did not the advantage is that in pub all players would spawn at the same time ratha than the current 2 people being out of sync from the teams wave we see all to often.

In avarage teams it would be due to the fact that the spawn times are more consistant (to the people not doing great with timing, or people that make silly mistakes.) As an attacker if you wipe them you get a guaranted + 5 seconds to do/start an objective. This makes none timed picks more important.

In competitive play (even though you lose the timing push) you are able to get into a position and as soon as you are ready start your assault rather than waiting for the clock to reach 1:20/2:20/3:20. Becase the gamemode is time based this is a major frustration for me. It also means that in prolonged fights the shorter times for attacks would allow them to re-enforce at the same rate (with bad respawn positions) and faster on good respawn positions. This would mean picking people off is much more viable. It also means that a 5 man wipe regardless of timing is a “big play” because currently with the quite inconsistant shooting a fight can last between 5 and 15 seconds… This leaves timing pushes inconsistant at the best of times. I cannot count the number of games I have watched/casted where a team has got a 5 man wipe and I am trying to be hyped to watch them respawn 2 seconds later.

On the flip side this would also help defenders on retaking objectives. Something I think could be cool. REAL fighting with REAL consquence.

Obviosuly “top” players can use the spawn waves (even though they seem pretty useless for multiple reasons currently) but the system I am suggesting is far more consistant on a basic level WITHOUT giving to much punishment to the players. People are currently asking for longer respawn timers and all that will lead to is public going down the bog… 1shot from Vas across map and you have a 30 second respawn just based on WHEN you died… pretty harsh… getting a 7.5 seconds + what ever your team add is a max of 20. if you do not die first every time you could actually have a lower overall time in the respawn screen. thats where I think the beauty of the system is.

(Glottis-3D) #5

so the first guy has to wait for the second guy, and they both have to wait for 3rd guy, and they 3 wait for the 4rth guy. in order to actually make a push together?

(Mustang) #6

I think he didn’t explain it very well, but what was meant is that the global spawnwave timer will start/stop/increase/decrease, not each players individual spawn timer, so everyone will still always spawn together.

[hr][/hr]
I’d like to try it, with the change that all proposed times are doubled.

(Erkin31) #7

I don’t like that. I want to have the control on the spawn time. If it is not fixed, I haven’t the control, I can do nothing with it.

Moreover, this will make the death too penalizing. In this kind of FPS (objectives + teamplay), the players shouldn’t fear the dead, the players should be able to die a lot by sacrificing himself on an objective.

(PixelTwitch) #8

no…

The spawn time is the TEAMS spawn time. They will all respawn together (the people that are dead).
Just the length of the teams spawn “wave” is based off how many of them died.

You get a basic 7.5sec wait (the first person that died.)
when the next person dies it adds 2.5 seconds to the time lets say they died 5 seconds apart, this would mean they would both have 5 seconds remaining till spawn when the second person died. add 2.5 for the 3rd and 2.5 for the 4th the add 5 for the fith (full wipe)

(prophett) #9

I don’t like that If I play smart and my team doesn’t, I get penalized with a longer spawn time. This wouldn’t be the case in comp (I hope), but for pubbing it would be very frustrating.

(Glottis-3D) #10

ok, i got it. variable spawnwave.

i see the problem, that it will become a pain in the ass to predict enemy’s spawn. and that is huge drawback.

(Anti) #11

It’s the same system that Dystopia Mod used (Source mod, a kind of Cyberpunk W:ET). Wave started as around 10 seconds for the first guy to die in the new wave of a team and would start counting down. For each subsequent death the team suffered before the clock hit zero then X seconds would be added to the timer, up to around a max of 20.

It meant team wipes were punished quite hard and gave people a reason to stay alive if their death might delay a four man re-spawn wave by another three seconds. It also created some pretty good windows of opportunity.

I liked it as a system but I’d prefer to do something else to address the problems we have in DB, something a touch less radical.

(Glottis-3D) #12

and also this. nomatter how smart you play if you get killed first you get the longest resp time.

(Anti) #13

[QUOTE=krokodealer;502918]ok, i got it. variable spawnwave.

i see the problem, that it will become a pain in the ass to predict enemy’s spawn. and that is huge drawback.[/QUOTE]

Is one issue. The benefit? A team wipe causes the max re-spawn, so a well coordinated attacks really could pay off in a big way, with a large window of opportunity to complete the objective.

(PixelTwitch) #14

[QUOTE=Mustang;502913]I think he didn’t explain it very well, but what was meant is that the global spawnwave timer will start/stop/increase/decrease, not each players individual spawn timer, so everyone will still always spawn together.

[hr][/hr]
I’d like to try it, with the change that all proposed times are doubled.[/QUOTE]

I would ask you if the possiblity to ever try it was on the table to try with these times first.
The system cuts down on “wasted” spawn wave time, also full wipes on compeititve have an avarage of around 7 seconds from start to finish of a fight. so the time people remain dead at the right time will be much greater than i think you realise actually on avarage around 10-12 seconds + Travel distance. If you double the time you actually run into a situation where you can start to abuse the system. because all of a sudden pre killing a team mate would end up benficial. I think you could get away with adding time on subseqence kills though, ‘maybe’

7.5 - 3.5 - 3.5 - 3.5 - 7.5

but then you would end up in a situation where the final kill would be a little too punishing at certain points. (I know its only 2.5 seconds longer final kill but it makes a big difference).

The other reason for the timer is because a 7.5 second GARANTEED out for a decent player in a decent position is a big thing. This way also stops the mid fight re-inforcements due to “lucky” timers. Doubling the time could mean its impossible to defuse a bomb after a full wipe unless you made the C4 time longer. (I believe every time should have the opertunity to have at least 1 decent push back) Personally… I would already add 30 seconds to a C4 timer but thats a whole different thread :smiley:

(Glottis-3D) #15

i mostly picture a regular DB game, with non-stop, non-timed flow of meatgrind deaths, and where you cannot tell is that 2nd death of their team or 3rd? or they alrdy resped and it is 1st of the new wave?

in ET/ETQW you could easily time the good push right after enemy’s respawn time, so that every gib is on full. and get those same opportunities for the obj.

++since you are here, Anti. how long is the safe-zone in the resp timer? 5 seconds? or 4? (i mean killing at 16 is still insta-respawn. and killing in 15 is 15-sec-respawn ?)

(Mustang) #16

I think the whole point of this system is to move away from predictable fixed spawns every X seconds, which even for co-ordinated teams can result in lucky defender re-spawns meaning no downtime to get cracking on the objective (due to poor spawn locations).

I’m kind of okay with this idea (wouldn’t mind testing it at least) provided teams still spawn together (i.e. in waves).

But as Anti mentioned it is kind of a radical change, I’d like to know how they do propose to fix the spawn/map issue though.

(PixelTwitch) #17

[QUOTE=Anti;502919]It’s the same system that Dystopia Mod used (Source mod, a kind of Cyberpunk W:ET). Wave started as around 10 seconds for the first guy to die in the new wave of a team and would start counting down. For each subsequent death the team suffered before the clock hit zero then X seconds would be added to the timer, up to around a max of 20.

It meant team wipes were punished quite hard and gave people a reason to stay alive if their death might delay a four man re-spawn wave by another three seconds. It also created some pretty good windows of opportunity.

I liked it as a system but I’d prefer to do something else to address the problems we have in DB, something a touch less radical.[/QUOTE]

Ah I thought Dystopia just added time based on an already ticking down wave (like adding time to the current waves we have in dirty bomb right now)

“a touch less radical” I do not believe you will find…
My core issue with the whole mode never mind just the spawn waves is the fact that its time based… Having something that is played off waves when the goal is timebased is crazy to me…

Having a random wave system to prevent the issues of having “best times to attack” increases the luck factor… Having it as a default wave timer but with different times (longer times) actually adds to the benift of waiting to a certain time before a push (and sometimes that can be stood there waiting for 10 - 20 - 30 seconds) Sure you could call this tactical and based off risk factors but the truth is really… kinda sloppy.

Having multiple spawn waves will hurt public play so much due to the likelyhood of lemming like play with multiple active waves.

Flat spawn timer started when someone dies is open to abuse with team kills, self kills, 1 guy rambo into the enemy then the rest of the team wait for 15 secs before pushing getting the instant spawn and pushing twice in the enemies single wave. Basing it off map based distance and waves helps a little but still a high risk of lemming lines and longer lines to spawn camp as defenders (Victoria first objective is a good example of this).

Be it this system of something else, I really do not care for the most part… I just hope that it is a player triggered system because that is without a doubt the fairest system avalible and works in low level pub and high level competitive. Again on the Time based nature of stopwatch… having to wait for the game to reach a good time is just so at odds with the idea of speed.

Again, totally understand its nothing to do with me… Just feel I am doing myself a diservice by not mentioning.

(Glottis-3D) #18

on a personal note:
i like punishing enemy with timer.
and i like, that i can be fooled by enemy or my own lack of concerntration.
and that i can insta-respawn with timed /kill.
and that i can always know whether i will be able to disarm c4 or not, and how many attempts i have if i die.

(PixelTwitch) #19

[QUOTE=krokodealer;502928]on a personal note:
i like punishing enemy with timer.
and i like, that i can be fooled by enemy or my own lack of concerntration.
and that i can insta-respawn with timed /kill.
and that i can always know whether i will be able to disarm c4 or not, and how many attempts i have if i die.[/QUOTE]

yea I do understand these concepts.
However if you are doing timed kills… how do you do them? You wait… So you have not actually saved any time by not being in the respawn wave really… Its just the illusion of actually playing… When you say fooled by the enemy, that only happens if the enemy is actively pushing you BECAUSE of the spawn timer, in public play that is unlikely to happen as often as you think, 9/10 the guy killed you when you had a 18sec respawn simply because he happened to run into you and not because he planned it. The knowing if you can disarm c4 or not is actually more predictable with my system as the timer I proposed would always mean you have 1 attempt to defuse from a full wipe into a full wipe. It also means you have the chance to wipe the attackers and defuse if you wipe them. The current wave system does not allow you to punish because of the 2 second buffer, easily predictable times (by pressing tab), medic spam and map layout. due to the more “campy” nature I doubt even the best team could reliably kill everyone off in a predictable time frame.

If you still believe your personal note is valid that is fair enough. I just want to make sure you have taken everything into consideration :slight_smile:

(Glottis-3D) #20

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;502930]yea I do understand these concepts.
However if you are doing timed kills… how do you do them? You wait… So you have not actually saved any time by not being in the respawn wave really… Its just the illusion of actually playing… When you say fooled by the enemy, that only happens if the enemy is actively pushing you BECAUSE of the spawn timer, in public play that is unlikely to happen as often as you think, 9/10 the guy killed you when you had a 18sec respawn simply because he happened to run into you and not because he planned it. The knowing if you can disarm c4 or not is actually more predictable with my system as the timer I proposed would always mean you have 1 attempt to defuse from a full wipe into a full wipe. It also means you have the chance to wipe the attackers and defuse if you wipe them. The current wave system does not allow you to punish because of the 2 second buffer, easily predictable times (by pressing tab), medic spam and map layout. due to the more “campy” nature I doubt even the best team could reliably kill everyone off in a predictable time frame.

If you still believe your personal note is valid that is fair enough. I just want to make sure you have taken everything into consideration :)[/QUOTE]

ofc it’s valid. for ET and ETQW, just not for DB. =)