Simple idea for a new Respawn System...


(Bitey) #21

Myself and PixelTwitch had a long talk about many different potential spawn wave setups for Dirtybomb, and while he went with some hybrid of the Dystopia system he seems to neglect the non-dystopia system!

Instead of punishing additional deaths, you can have a wave timer start on the very first death. Consecutive deaths aren’t punished as every player will join onto the current wave. Lets explain with a graph:

Attacker Spawn: 15

Defender Spawn: 17

Attacker dies :15 second spawn timer
4 seconds pass
Attacker dies: 11 second spawn timer
6 seconds pass
Defender Dies: 17 second spawn timer (attacker spawn in 5)
3 seconds pass
Attacker Dies: 2 second spawn time (Defenders spawn in 14)

Upon the first death of a member of either team their wave spawn timer starts. Every consecutive death falls onto a teams spawn timer. It’s a very simple system which can encourage safe play at the start, and make a team want to push heavily once a pick is made. It would dictate a steady game pace by making sure that teams are able to chain kills together so they have the most time to clear an objective.

As a more specialized system I’d love a way so that when the timer reaches under 3 seconds a new wave is started. So again I’ll explain it with word graphs!

Attacker dies: 15 second spawn timer
6 seconds pass
Attacker Dies: 9 second respawn timer
2 seconds pass
Defender dies: 17 seconds spawn timer (attacker spawn in 7)
4 seconds pass
Attacker Dies: New timer start 15 seconds (Defenders spawn in 13) [Other attackers spawn in 3]
6 seconds pass- First offense wave spawns
Defender dies: 7 second spawn timer (Attacker spawn in 9)
4 seconds pass
Defender dies: New timer start 17 seconds (attackers spawn in 5) [Other defender spawn in 3]

This system would setup so that aggression is highly rewarded and playing passive to stay alive when your team starts dying can be penalized. Stay together, die together, and spawn together! I’ll get some more time to hopefully explain it more later, share your thoughts!


(Glottis-3D) #22

why death-trigger for spawn-wave?
how is it better than usual spawnwave, that starts randomly from 0 to 10 seconds?


(DJswirlyAlien) #23

I like this idea but I think you maybe have it backwards. Start with 20 seconds spawn penalty and duct 4 seconds for every enemy killed instead.

You might be able to even add say 5 seconds if the enemy gets revived but…


(PixelTwitch) #24

[QUOTE=Bitey;502943]Myself and PixelTwitch had a long talk about many different potential spawn wave setups for Dirtybomb, and while he went with some hybrid of the Dystopia system he seems to neglect the non-dystopia system!

Instead of punishing additional deaths, you can have a wave timer start on the very first death. Consecutive deaths aren’t punished as every player will join onto the current wave. Lets explain with a graph:

Attacker Spawn: 15

Defender Spawn: 17

Attacker dies :15 second spawn timer
4 seconds pass
Attacker dies: 11 second spawn timer
6 seconds pass
Defender Dies: 17 second spawn timer (attacker spawn in 5)
3 seconds pass
Attacker Dies: 2 second spawn time (Defenders spawn in 14)

Upon the first death of a member of either team their wave spawn timer starts. Every consecutive death falls onto a teams spawn timer. It’s a very simple system which can encourage safe play at the start, and make a team want to push heavily once a pick is made. It would dictate a steady game pace by making sure that teams are able to chain kills together so they have the most time to clear an objective.

As a more specialized system I’d love a way so that when the timer reaches under 3 seconds a new wave is started. So again I’ll explain it with word graphs!

Attacker dies: 15 second spawn timer
6 seconds pass
Attacker Dies: 9 second respawn timer
2 seconds pass
Defender dies: 17 seconds spawn timer (attacker spawn in 7)
4 seconds pass
Attacker Dies: New timer start 15 seconds (Defenders spawn in 13) [Other attackers spawn in 3]
6 seconds pass- First offense wave spawns
Defender dies: 7 second spawn timer (Attacker spawn in 9)
4 seconds pass
Defender dies: New timer start 17 seconds (attackers spawn in 5) [Other defender spawn in 3]

This system would setup so that aggression is highly rewarded and playing passive to stay alive when your team starts dying can be penalized. Stay together, die together, and spawn together! I’ll get some more time to hopefully explain it more later, share your thoughts![/QUOTE]

This is basically the idea I originally came up with but I am sorry to say that its far to abusable. Having a team mate rambo into the team (on purpose) then waiting till just before the end of his spawn wave and rushing in to have a instant respawn is too strong. Also lots of other little things that people brought up and they where kinda correct the way to gaurd against these things made the system very complex with lots of fail safes.

Personally I think the Dystopia like hybrid I am talking about if the best system that I have seen so far at least.
It manages to have long spawn times but most importantly directed spawn times. Ontop of that the low addition of time actually negates the ability/want to abuse by doing the rambo rush in to start the timer.

just my 2 cents


(Ceres) #25

What’s wrong with the system now (as long as it works fine like in RTCW/ET)? You know when you spawn, you know when the enemy spawns, so you play around with that information in mind.
As long as the respawn waves and timers are fixed so you can’t respawn after your wave, everything will be fine and it’s even a learning curve for newer players. So far, I’ve been trying to get people out full only to realize they can still respawn 5 secs after their original spawn time… makes no sense. Just get that fixed so you can’t respawn after the respawn timers and that’s it. If it doesn’t work, then play around with the timers for attack/defense until the right combination is discovered (timers have to be based on 0 or 5 intervals otherwise it will be too difficult for teams to calculate every spawn on the go)


(Mustang) #26

The issue is that the grace period to be included in a given spawnwave is too long, not that they can respawn at anytime after the spawnwave timer has clocked over. IIRC the grace period is ~1 seconds, not 5, but Smooth can probably confirm.


(Ceres) #27

If it’s 1 second then it HAS to be a major bug because I’ve seen people respawn at just about any time.


(Glottis-3D) #28

then something works incorrect. because i resp’ed at 16 the otherday, after scratching my balls for 4 seconds.


(PixelTwitch) #29

Even though its listed as a change in this build I believe that you have respawned when an objective is complete for a while now.
The grace period is a maximum of 2 seconds but currently there is a little bit of hud lag it seems from time to time.

The problem with the 2 seconds is that on a 20 second wave thats a 10% chance of no spawn time at all even if your just playing without paying attention to the spawn timer. Hence why I want a system like the one mentioned because the consistancy is MUCH greater than we have currently. While I know that “top” teams use the spawn timer well in other games 1, it does not work as well in DB for multiple reasons and 2, its hurting the public game much more than I think people understand.


(Ceres) #30

It will work perfectly fine if there is no grace period at all. You spawn ever 20 secs, end of story. Then again, the killing out and the constant spam of the kill out button and then SPACE has to be fixed.


(montheponies) #31

This is like groundhog day…

Just try 20s off / 30s def fixed spawntimes, with a maximum of 1s grace (if you miss the tap out, then that’s your pigeon, you either made a conscious decision or need to pay better attention). If that is found to not function correctly AND we’re sure that it’s the respawn mechanic rather than the map/objective design - or even if it does but you think it could be better, then try an alternative as it is we’re basing this respawn ‘problem’ on crap dual 20s timers and terrible map designs…

On the original post - if that was to be implemented I’d go for making it fixed 20s spawnwaves for the offense and the variable spawnwave for the defense, based upon a maximum of 30s (15s first def death, then an incremental amount up to the 30s). That way, hopefully, you’ll still retain an offensive bias which should be the natural order of things imo.


(PixelTwitch) #32

[QUOTE=montheponies;503041]
On the original post - if that was to be implemented I’d go for making it fixed 20s spawnwaves for the offense and the variable spawnwave for the defense, based upon a maximum of 30s (15s first def death, then an incremental amount up to the 30s). That way, hopefully, you’ll still retain an offensive bias which should be the natural order of things imo.[/QUOTE]

If you mean fixed as in how it currently is that would mean that attackers would basically win every round on the first push because they can just kill a few seconds before their wave is up and then instantly respawn and wipe almost every single time.

If you are talking about fixed as in triggered when the first offensive player dies they will just rambo the first person in to die then do the same as mentioned above. I have no issue with trying to lenghen the times I posted in the original post however I do think people are underestimating just how much of an advantage the attackers would have. It would be a plant and less then 1 attempt to take back the point on a full wipe. will turn into a TDM game with small objective barriers before each new fighting section.

ie, Your fight takes 7 seconds to wipe means 23 seconds respawn + 5 - 10 seconds travel to objective + fight + 7 second defuse with an engie or 14 without engie means - 23+7+7+7 = 44seconds with an engie on an avarage map when the bomb time is only 40seconds. if everything went perfectly you would likely be able to get the defuse done when the c4 is on 2 - 5 seconds quite often. but in general its kinda painful.

You could lengthen the C4 time (something I would actually like to see) to negate this though.


(montheponies) #33

OK, so not really wanting to debate this as I don’t really think it’s a good idea in any case - but i dont see how the offense would somehow automatically wipe out the defense team on first spawn just because of the spawntime - at best with even teams and taking account of travel times it would be on the third or fourth spawn that this might happen - but there are that many variables to take into account that simply predicting an offense walkover is rather flawed.

dont really want to enter into the world of word graphs - i’ll leave that to bitey :slight_smile:


(bishy) #34

But you haven’t mentioned that the defense team can do this also - Push out on the attackers during the final seconds of the spawn wave, empty their remaining ammo into them, /kill or die and respawn once again as a team. Done properly with communication you’d leave a couple of guys up to create some trouble for the attackers still. This worked in ET and RtCW, I don’t see why it will not work here also.

I’d prefer fixed spawn times - Knowing exactly when both teams are going to spawn and in turn being able to use that strategically.


(PixelTwitch) #35

sure if the defenders are good they will still likely win…

however having 2 attacker waves within 10 seconds with the chance of keeping defenders down for 30 means you can run into the issue of 2 attacker waves vs a single defensive wave. Simply because the attackers can just wait till 4 - 5 seconds before their spawn wave then rush out kill a few triggering 20sec timer on the people they kill… attackers are right back up and fighting again before the defenders respawn… each remaining defender they kill adds to the time…

While my example is just of one play it is a valid concern.
You should not have to lose an objective to this sort of thing. While it is balanced becasue both teams play both sides… it would become dull and predictable. Evolving meta does not happen when there is a flat out mathematically superior way to play.


(Atavax) #36

i think very short respawn times combined with spawn points being farther away from the action is ideal.

It is more fun to start playing again then to wait doing nothing

It helps pubs coordinate because while you’re moving towards the objective and not seeing resistance, you see where teammates are going, you see if t here are open spots. You could create spawn waves by waiting for someone else to catch up to you.

I also think the reviving mechanic should be minimized because its quite a negative experience killing someone and then having that kill taken away by a revive mechanic. Being able to negate the damage someone deals is bad imo. It leads to people feeling helpless and unable to accomplish anything in a pub.


(Rex) #37

Okay, so before I’m going to read your suggestion can you please briefly explain what’s wrong with the spawn system (which worked for over 13 years!) in general? If you forget the wrong times which are set currently, forget all about that.
I’m afraid people (especially new ones) tend once again to fix the symptoms instead the source of the problem.


(PixelTwitch) #38

[QUOTE=Rex;503372]Okay, so before I’m going to read your suggestion can you please briefly explain what’s wrong with the spawn system (which worked for over 13 years!) in general? If you forget the wrong times which are set currently, forget all about that.
I’m afraid people (especially new ones) tend once again to fix the symptoms instead the source of the problem.[/QUOTE]

Nothings wrong with the old system…
Just like nothing was wrong with bread before the bakers started slicing it or using a computer without a mouse before it was invented… Just because something worked has worked for a long time does not make it perfect or the best system for a game that IS NOT Enemy Territory.

You asking me to forget the issues that have actively been removed by Splash Damage… I mean I doubt they just forgot overnight how to recreate the spawn systems from ET/ETQW… If you are referring to the symptom being the spawn system and the source of the problem being the maps… I have to say, I totally disagree. You can make a perfect map for almost any game really… You can have fun on lots of maps in general… Even simple boxes in an open arena with bright orange textures. The truth of the matter is, its actually kinda hard to make an awful map. The problem with blaming the maps so heavily is that the maps will get tweaked and “fixed” to work with the current system. All that means is that future map design with be stiff as all hell due to design restraints caused by the surrounding systems.

lol, mark my words :smiley:


(Rex) #39

Alright, so I can skip this thread.

Only because something isn’t balanced yet properly does not mean we have to reinvent the wheel. I see no reason to make it unnecessary complicated.

They forgot capturable and selectable spawn points. Any questions left?

No, it was meant as a statement in general.

Are you f**king kidding me? You can’t be serious… :rolleyes:

Your imagination… but seems like you just can’t see the obvious.