@RazielWarmonic whoops sorry, dumb me
dox saw somewhere about that there wont be any penalties, (i think i saw that too) and now you are writing that there are penalties,
it was just a reminder to dont say about ideas, because these ideas are probably going to change and that is probably going to summon wave of hate (glad it didnt happed this time) or situations like that and its more safe to say what are you working on, not ideas about that thing and dont answer questions when you arent sure/ know that it might change
but also after reading some of your post i saw you are doing that soo that “reminder” is rather useless than usefull
sorry again for not making it clear and going off topic (now i feel dumb :/)
[quote=“RazielWarmonic;190707”][quote=“Equanimity;190696”]
Fair point about the server browser I suppose. That being said why would I bother ever using the matchmaking queue? Why would anyone? I get the feeling, especially once private servers are purchasable, a large portion of the community will gravitate towards the server browser. Especially if they have to put up with 5v6s and no one to join for leavers. Especially if the MMR system is insufficient in providing actually even matches (yet to be seen). Especially if queues are going to take forever because joining games in progress is impossible. Especially if queues take forever because everyone is using the server browser. Especially if they’re going to be punished any time something comes up and they need to step away.
Let us not forget we’re talking about CASUAL MATCHMAKING in a FPS GAME.[/quote]
People transitioning from the Casual Matchmaking queue to server browser is perfectly acceptable.
We aren’t making Casual Matchmaking for the old players who know their way around Dirty Bomb, we are making it for those new players who don’t know what is going on and are intimidated by the server browser - To be honest, when I first started, I sure was![/quote]
Well I can certainly understand some trepidation for new players in regards to the server browser, especially if they don’t know about max 5 servers. I do think however, a long time spent in a MM queue, and/or having to put up with other new players who don’t know or care about the leaver penalty, and then dealing with 5v6s or likewise simply uneven matches (which really can’t be prevented for the newest of players) will result in new players likely getting an awful first time experience with the game. Again, not boding well for player retention, unfortunately.
This is a complicated problem in the context of the newest of players. It wouldn’t be as simple as making sure they can get someone to fill in for leavers, but honestly that would be a step in the right direction, at the very least for their sake.
[quote=“RazielWarmonic;190707”][quote=“Equanimity;190696”]
Fair point about the server browser I suppose. That being said why would I bother ever using the matchmaking queue? Why would anyone? I get the feeling, especially once private servers are purchasable, a large portion of the community will gravitate towards the server browser. Especially if they have to put up with 5v6s and no one to join for leavers. Especially if the MMR system is insufficient in providing actually even matches (yet to be seen). Especially if queues are going to take forever because joining games in progress is impossible. Especially if queues take forever because everyone is using the server browser. Especially if they’re going to be punished any time something comes up and they need to step away.
Let us not forget we’re talking about CASUAL MATCHMAKING in a FPS GAME.[/quote]
People transitioning from the Casual Matchmaking queue to server browser is perfectly acceptable.
We aren’t making Casual Matchmaking for the old players who know their way around Dirty Bomb, we are making it for those new players who don’t know what is going on and are intimidated by the server browser - To be honest, when I first started, I sure was!
Players who rage quit during Casual Matchmaking will receive a penalty. It’s akin to the Ranked Matchmaking penalty. [/quote]
I don’t care about the penalty of a single one when he leaves, but for the penalty for the whole team, since they have to play with less people and it won’t be balanced or filled up.
When 1-2 people on my team leave, the rest is doomed to lose Since the teams are sooo balanced for the full room and not for 4v5 for example, as the devteam tells us. [/quote]
They don’t get a “loss” on their record, and after an amount of time, like rank, can leave the game if they so desire.
Server browser is not going away. We need it for several reasons, one of those being the hardcore players who prefer it, and for when we eventually get private servers going.[/quote]
You misunderstood me. It’s not about a loss. hell, a loss isn’t important. You get what? 500 less EXP than the winners. My issue is that a game will become unfun and frustrating if players leave. A 4vs5 in ranked was a pain. Since you not lose immedieately, but slowly, and you can’t do anything about it. You could win. Or atleast having a cool balanced 30 minutes game. But no. You will lose because one guy leaves. A 7vs5 in pub is a shit experience. You are not getting fun games when people leave. Period. And since the matchmaker promises to balance BEFOREHAND, we will have balanced XvX games. But this automatically makes games XvX-Y unbalanced.
For casual MM, I’d definitely prefer the option being able to fill for a team that lost one player due to whatever reason if it offers the option to the players closest to the casual MMR of the game first before widening its search. Maybe even reduce the MMR loss for the person that’s willing to fill in case of a loss?
But penalties for casual MM?
I’m sorry but this is not ok for me. There are too many issues for me within the game/servers to worry about before even considering IRL issues that may force me to quit the game.
The servers and the game client is not stable, otherwise I wouldn’t get random errors, disconnects, the anti cheat program disconnects and crashes.
These issues have been there for a while, which made me avoid Ranked MM as I found myself too often facing one of those issues while just trying to play through a full stopwatch game. Some days I just gave up on playing the game after 3 disconnects in a row.
Even League is finally trying to reduce the frustration of players having to deal with 4v5 games. They just recently added a remake option, which isn’t too great at the moment, but it’s a start.
And League is also far more stable, as there I might get some kind of an error or a crash/disconnect 1/100 games, while in DB I might get forced out of a game every 1/10 games.
[quote=“RazielWarmonic;190689”]
The biggest example I can think of a game doing this is League, one person leaving just sucks, especially with the time commitment with each match that game has. But you go onto your next game and start fresh. The good news is, for Dirty Bomb, a match doesn’t usually last more than 10-15 mins. [/quote]
Also League is a MOBA, the characters picked before the game are set till the end of the game, meaning if anyone even had the option to fill in for the leaving person, they’d have to be able to play that specific character out of 131 characters not to mention all the other factors that come with it.
When someone joins an ongoing match in DB, they get to see the characters picked by their allies and have time to adjust their squad before actually joining the match. Even if the same person that left the game in DB reconnects has the option to readjust their squad.
I thought DB’s casual MM will be similar to OW’s, as in I could jump in and out of casual games without any issues. And I really think this kind of MM system will have much more success in DB, as all characters have rather similar playstyle, while OW greatly suffers at the moment trying to fill the non dps roles.
This doesn’t help players stuck in a 4v5 and what does a loss prevented matter in casual MM?
And btw, big thank you to @RazielWarmonic for actually answering so many questions in this thread.
Soooo… Players who rage quit get a penalty…I guess the system will know the difference between power outage/ connection problem/random game crashes/server issues/ and the rest of the errors…(maybe fix the game/server issues first)…Other thing:finding a balance algorithm for the servers was
hard(and never achieved), and finding a better algorithm for casual mm, with all the data from matches/levels/blahblahblah will be harder. The whole thing gonna end up as a big poop pile, with salty ppl . I know this sounds anticasualmatchmaking, but so many errors with the game and latest testing, I hardly believe this will work well, when fixing issues like in the lobby everyone appears on the same team is a problem.
P.s. I voted to stay locked so the mm can fail fast and silently
[quote=“RazielWarmonic;190689”][quote=“Equanimity;190686”]
Technical difficulties? Real life obligations? There’s a million factors. People shouldn’t be punished for playing CASUALLY and not being able to see a match through until the very end due to unforeseen consequences. Yeah I’m sure that’ll be GREATTTTT for player retention.
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While I agree, these things DO happen - they shouldn’t happen often.
If you quit one time, you won’t be penalized as harsh - we get it, we’re human, @$!# just happens sometimes that is out of your control. It sucks that you get penalized, yes, but by the time you get back with dealing with whatever you should probably be fine. (If you constantly have to leave for IRL stuff, maybe server browser or taking care of your stuff is a better option for you ;P)
The biggest example I can think of a game doing this is League, one person leaving just sucks, especially with the time commitment with each match that game has. But you go onto your next game and start fresh. The good news is, for Dirty Bomb, a match doesn’t usually last more than 10-15 mins.
Just some food for thought. [/quote]
Don’t forget about a few things:
Joining a match with incompetent players and getting spawn-trapped by the other team. --Even with the new matchmaking system, this can and will still happen, although not as often. I’m pretty sure most people do not enjoy ending up on a team that just doesn’t know what the hell to do and waiting 10-15 minutes for a match to end isn’t exactly fun (fun is the point of casual play).
The point of this thread… QUITTERS= Unbalanced teams= short-handed team also wanting to leave.
-Why should those people be punished for leaving when the game is completely unbalanced and can’t be rebalanced?
HACKERS.
-Though they are rare in Dirty Bomb, they still appear from time to time. Actually kicking a hacker is uncommon because people like an easy win (less credits for them though). Plus, there’s noobs who just have no clue what they’re doing and just don’t pay attention.
Playerbase. I believe the playerbase just isn’t large enough to support this. What I mean is that finding a half-full to full game, especially for Execution or Stopwatch, can be kind of tedious sometimes. There are plenty of empty servers, but sometimes not enough people to fill them and those almost-empty games are extremely boring. Now this is more of a problem with people leaving games and others not being able to refill those spots.
-Now I’m sure there’s things you can/are doing for this so it’s probably a negligible point.
I had other things in mind before, but forgot what they were so I’ll edit this if I think of them again.
This is all just speculation though to be honest. I won’t know entirely until I actually try out casual matchmaking. I know the server browser option will still be there (right?), but I’m guessing there won’t be many players if most people use matchmaking… Hopefully everything turns out great and people can stop complaining about unbalanced teams.
I’ve played other games with matchmaking systems and sometimes the waiting is so long that I just quit the game completely. If the wait is over 10-30 seconds, it’s definitely not worth it. Just my opinion though lol.
[quote=“Dox;30968”]We’ve been informed that teams in the new matchmaking system will be locked. Players can leave as often as they want without penalty,
snip[/quote]
Well, as it’s been readdressed by the admins, there is in fact a penalty. I’ve said it several times before this post was even created, so I don’t need to say that again. However, from the getgo I remember them saying that there would be penalties for leaving the match to discourage rage quitters, etc.
Not that I wholly agree with penalties existing for rage quitters in general, but I’m just saying that I’ve heard it since about 4 months ago when Casual Matchmaking was brought up on stream.
I’m just scared to how bad the penalties are going to be… I have to constantly leave games due to family and many other commitments. I also wonder if the penalties are going to be limited only to the casual matchmaking system, or to all of DB in general. I think that they’re somewhat destroying ranked by adding penalties to Casual Matchmaking, but ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Where have you seen this? I remember seeing shoe or one or the devs (sorry if it wasn’t you shoe) saying they had no plans to add penalties to public games, only ranked. There was lots of discussions about it but generally speaking most people agreed it was a bad idea for pub games. Not saying they didn’t say it I’m just curious where you saw it, because I remember reading nothing about penalties in public games.
They have eaten their hats since. Since casual matchmaking started to raise as a forthcoming feature in their mind, they’ve always mentioned penalty in this pub system only.
Well that’s why I suggested it be a tick box. If you don’t want to risk things like that, simply leave the box unchecked and you will only find new fresh games. For those of us who just want to find any old game as fast as possible, it would be a nice option.
i generally think teams should be locked and leavers punished (i dont care why- you leave you screw up the game for others) but the option for willing players to join games in progress sounds decent, provided their ELO is close to the person that left.
so id generally be in favor of that option, for those that want it
I dislike the thought of thinking that a team is pretty much guaranteed to lose if someone leaves or is kicked on their team for the rest of the match. I don’t think a match should remain unbalanced just because something happened to one of the people in the game.
I still think server incentives for staying in the same lobby were a better idea. Sure you’d have to wait to join on your friends or find an empty server, but more people would stay for the bonus and there wouldn’t have to be penalties for pub games, not even penalties are going to stop people from leaving a public game they don’t want to play- whether it’s with their friends or without.
I strongly recommend you guys to read this post on OW match making. While they are different games, I’m 100% positive they share the same challenges.
The last section which explains why they’ll disable their Avoid System because too many people were avoiding matches when this amazing sniper was on the enemy team is mind blowing and shows how granular such a system has to be to become efficient.
I don’t get what that post has to do with this topic in particular? OW or any other game, I don’t see the relevance to whether or not we fill in the gaps in DB.
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