Shotguns

[INF3RN0]

God forbid liking well balanced and sensible mechanics in games… enlighten me on what skill I am overlooking oh shotgun lords. Is it not odd that every time someone says “shotguns take no skill” you hear “your not doing it right” from the guy with 1000 deaths who regains confidence with that single slay via hours of positional practicing… for the record I don’t want these removed like most players do, but I’d sure like to see them appeal to more than those who want to avoid aiming in an FPS so let’s throw in a weapon that OHKs when you get reeeeeel close eh. Even knives don’t OHK at point blank and take some margin of positional skill… so wait huh??

[Kendle]

I hate getting involved in weapon discussions, because I’m so useless at aiming I don’t trust my own opinions on the matter. What I do know is a) I have no skill and b) I can’t use Shotguns, ergo: Shotguns require skill

I like having lots of different types of weapon in a game, it’s one of the great things about DB, although they could be a bit more different (especially the SMGs / ARs) and there are some people in this Alpha who are super effective with Shotguns (bastards!), but at the moment they don’t seem to be too OP. When the Shotty first appeared (Engie 2?) they were well OP and everyone was using them. That’s not the case anymore.

[Anti]

Most of you who say you dislike the shotguns (aside from Inferno) haven’t said why, it would be cool if you could share with us why. Is it a case of them being OP? Or are they too hard to use?

I think we’d like to do a few different shotguns, maybe a slug one as suggested, but in general there isn’t that much meaningful variety in this type of gun so there won’t be too many types.

I think Horse is actually right in that shotguns are a type of weapon that requires a very different type of skill set and play style to use well. Tracking skill becomes somewhat less of an issue with them whilst shot patience, movement and positioning are even more important with these guns than with other weapons. We’re not going to go out of our way to change this about shotguns, we need a variety of weapons in the game so folks have different things to try and so that we can accommodate various play styles.

[MrFunkyFunk]

Like I said in previous posts, my problem with them on DB is more of a loadout issue and versality issue.

If I use shotguns there are some sections of the maps where I’ll have a hard time keeping up with smg & rifles opponents.
Currently the shotguns have terrible mid-range and you’re forced most of the time to play a “bait & wait” game in cramped areas and around corners (and I start to believe those cramped areas were designed for that purpose: to remove the ranger barrier to put on equal footing everyone).
Back sneaking could be a viable option but it’s almost nonexistent due to the current “one-corridor-to-control-them-all” map design.
I would very much like being able to still have the opportunity to stand my ground at a reasonnable distance when playing a shotgun and not just hold the forward to pick my enemy nose with my barrel.

The analogy with the sniper is a dull one imo, from a pure shooting perspective a skilled sniper can go both cqc & range combat (actual shortrange sniping combo with its smg, pointblank unscoped luckshot and max range sniping) and no matter how much you turn it around a shotgun will never be able to do both. Even a rather “weak” cvops class like we have at the moment has more versality.

And the loadouts are dictating a certain type of gameplay.
Medic 02 could be a fun “in-your-face” sort of offensive combat medic but no, plant your station and be a good watchdog, just like your engineer 02 pal and its mine (which used to be a kamikaze-loadout before the arming delay was introduced, it was a pain in the ass but I’m sure that extreme pleased some players who were genuinely having fun rushing enemies).
Some freedom of choice in that department would make me play shotguns a lot more.

I would like to use them more, to a certain extent they’re fun, but I’m restricting myself to a limited playstyle.

[Anti]

As Smooth said we will be addressing the issue of fixed weapons in load-outs restricting your play style, so don’t worry about that so much. I’m just interested in how folks feel about the weapon on its own merits.

[Rengenius]

I think shotguns are too slow, too powerful and too inaccurate. Boost the ROF and accuracy, nerf damage = best close/mid range weapon in the game

[iwound]

i like the fact when im up against shottie wielding players i know if i keep my distance i can increase my survival rate.
of course its a good indoor close up weapon. so when in other situations you can easily change. no problem.
complaining its no good over all the map doesnt make any sense. you have another gun, knife, nade, mine, turret.
your not a one trick pony.

:magicpony: <- this is.

<-- new shotty type.

[Mustang]

They promote campy play because they’re an insta-kill at close range.

If you try to play them as a more team based roll you’re penalised because the first reaction shot is going to be harder to hit and they you die due to slow rate of fire.

So I’d like to see a minimum of two hit kill, with a faster rate of fire to compensate and be more team orientated.

[MrFunkyFunk]

[QUOTE=Mustang;455309]They promote campy play because they’re an insta-kill at close range.

If you try to play them as a more team based roll you’re penalised because the first reaction shot is going to be harder to hit and they you die due to slow rate of fire.

So I’d like to see a minimum of two hit kill, with a faster rate of fire to compensate and be more team orientated.[/QUOTE]

This.
It was about making shotguns more reliable at close & mid range, getting away from corner hugging & camping.

Current secondary SMGs are terrible imho, throwing them in the opponent’s face would bear more results.
They aren’t the needed gap closer. They would be better with decent range, at the cost of a smaller magazine or lower rof, to give the player more diversity of play.

For me at the moment the nature of the gun is inseparable of the loadout (secondary & ability) and its clouding my judgement on the weapon.

[iwound]

[QUOTE=MrFunkyFunk;455316]This.
It was about making shotguns more reliable at close & mid range, getting away from corner hugging & camping.[/QUOTE]

Why? corner hugging & camping is part of the game. do you want us all running towards you and get 1 hit kills.
just increasing its power because its your favourite weapon is wrong. its about balance.

[Samurai]

[QUOTE=Anti;455287]Most of you who say you dislike the shotguns (aside from Inferno) haven’t said why, it would be cool if you could share with us why. Is it a case of them being OP? Or are they too hard to use?
[/QUOTE]

I can’t remember openly admitting i hate shotguns, but i do in most FPS games except TF2 Scout / QL. I prefer Higher ROF, consistent spread shotguns which take 2/3 hits to kill, and some form of movement benefit to aid getting into close proximity. A shotgun should reward both the initial reflex shots and consistent aiming to provide a reasonable TTK (rather than 1 hit kills or extremely high TTK due to range/damage).

I kind of have 2 different perspectives of shotguns depending whether i am using them or on the receiving end of one.

When handling them I do extremely dislike them, due to the automatic disadvantage you put yourself in with games that do not give movement benefits or keep a low ROF/damage balance. I find it incredibly frustrating having to navigate as close as possible to the model to take them out, it’s not efficient and doesn’t suit my play style preferences having to risk myself excessively to get the kill. Also the time between shots if they are too slow is very frustrating dieing in that period of ‘semi-reloading’. I feel like i am extremely restricted in where i can go throughout a map to be effective, compared to the automatic weapons which the environment plays less of a factor.

When on the receiving end of a shotgun my issue is the inconsistency of fighting them. You either come round a corner and face a rediculous insta death from 1 hit giving you absolutely no time to react/respond or do anything about the situation or you can just easily back way a little and the other play is rendered completely useless making the firefight fairly boring.

I would much rather fight with / against shotguns that have a higher ROF, slight movement speed benefit, more balanced damage output and consistent spread.- basically moving away from any mechanics that put emphasis on hitting the first shot to kill them in one or miss and die kind of firefights.

[MrFunkyFunk]

[QUOTE=iwound;455327]Why? corner hugging & camping is part of the game. do you want us all running towards you and get 1 hit kills.
just increasing its power because its your favourite weapon is wrong. its about balance.[/QUOTE]

Of course camping is part of the game, but a gun or a loadout shouldn’t just be resumed to that.
It’s about making shotguns appealing to a wider range of players, getting away from the popular stereotype that it’s a “noob weapon”.

A live game isn’t all about a single player little bubble of comfort and his lovely 2m² corner area, he’s part of a team and currently with a shotgun his general participation towards the team, through a whole map, is less satisfying than that of another loadout.

When I play shotgun I can never get any consistency from start to finish, I can get incredibly lucky one shot kill and still fail a duel even tho I’m doing my best to return fire by precisely aiming. It often feels like I’m playing the wheel of fortune.

(And again Samurai hits the spot, I guess I’ll stop spending too much time re-re-re-writing stuff and leave it to native speakers ;p)

[iwound]

[QUOTE=MrFunkyFunk;455342]

When I play shotgun I can never get any consistency from start to finish, I can get incredibly lucky one shot kill and still fail a duel even tho I’m doing my best to return fire by precisely aiming. It often feels like I’m playing the wheel of fortune.[/QUOTE]

i think thats a fair point and needs to be addressed whatever the cause. but its not because of the amount of falloff unless the falloff is broken.
i definitely dont want to see increased power from mid-range. it was terrible when this was true.
you have to accept that individual weapons will have their weakness and distance is the shotguns.
i think not killing at close range is a code issue not rules issue. and is probably a combination of things.
for me performance is an issue. i think that possibly once a lot of other things get closer to where they need to be the shotgun will feel better.
its more that symptoms of other problems are showing themselves with certain weapons but its not necessarily an issue with that weapon.

[H0RSE]

I don’t think they should make the shotgun appeal to a wider audience, because currently, part of the appeal of using shotguns, is that they don’t appeal to a wider audience. They are a “niche” (maybe not the best word?) weapon - they appeal to a certain playstyle, like sniper rifles. After reading many of your concerns for the gun, it basically sounds like you guys want to change the gun because either 1) you feel it’s unfair when playing against them or 2) playing with them is detrimental to your specific playstyle.

Shotguns appeal to a specific playstyle - they are so radically different from AR’s and SMG’s and sniper rifles, because they aren’t supposed to appeal to everyone. Despite their high lethality at close range, perhaps (at least in part) the reason many refer to them as a “noob” weapon, is simply because they suck at using them. I mean if they are so easy and effective and “noob,” wouldn’t everyone be using them? Yet in games that have them, they tend to be one of the least used weapons, and I don’t think it’s due to pride and players wanting to avoid the “noob” moniker.

[Raviolay]

I like shotguns, however shotguns in Dirty Bomb don’t pan out how I expect when I fire them. To begin with I sort of expect them to have higher accuracy at medium range with less fall off. So you can get two domeshots in SMG territory or one at extreme close range with an accuracy trade off based on the players trigger finger. The wait time between shots to gain max accuracy with a shotgun IMO should be around the average kill time with a SMG at medium range. What I mean by max accuracy is the pellet concentration to the center of the crosshair, the pattern should always be the same (fixed) the spread should also fire in a fixed manner (pellet concentration in the pattern moves out equally) in a oval pattern.

[Ashog]

I have no problems getting most or second most kills with shotgun. It sucks vs ARs at mid to long ranges but this is how it’s meant to be. It takes practice to learn when to use shottie and when smg and the smg is a tricky one (huge recoil, small clip afaik), but it’s also fine and just takes more practice to learn to compensate more than for AR recoil. Also smaller damage and clip require for you to move better and push less aggressively and not losing the cover out of view.

But I am sure, as soon as damage is reduced and rate increased, shotgun lovers will start rushing forward in a rambo fashion, which contradicts with the purpose of medic and engie. I find it now very ok and have acknowledged to myself that the shotgun class (especially medic 2) need more time to get used to, rather than run out, point at head, track and keep shooting with a normal guy’s AR.