Anyone from SD able to comment on possible experimental shotgun mechanics in the future? I’d definitely play them if they weren’t so generic. TF2 did a great job with shotguns as one example, but anything that breaks the streamlined mold would be hugely appreciated.
I noticed some attempts at having that type of innovative approach in the early grenade launcher. I hope the same goes for all the unique non-rifle types. A big variety of weapon types in DB would be great, but I’d really want to see them be unique and interesting!
Shotguns are usually my favorite weapon, and I tend to use them almost exclusively in games that offer them. I enjoy them for their sheer brutality and for the playstyle they cater to. I much rather blasting guys up close, than taking pop shots from a distance. The problem I tend to see with them, is that they can be awesome at times, and dice rolls at others.
Sometimes you can shoot someone and swear that they should’ve been dead, only to see them not only survive, but not take that much damage, and then have a similar encounter, and kill the guy in one hit. Sometimes the devs also seem to overcompensate for their damage by making their range so close, you have to have the barrel practically up your targets ass for it to be effective. Also, I really hate it when devs decide to make aiming down the sights of a shotgun a viable tactic - in certain games, it can substantially increase your accuracy. Shotguns aren’t, and really shouldn’t be, about accuracy, but rather about positioning. Let the rifle users worry about eying up headshots.
Basically your asking for a weapon that allows people who can’t really aim to get an easy kill if they manage to get close enough. That mechanic is the reason shotguns are widely viewed as the ultimate noob weapon or just plain ridiculous because “positioning” is more random and lucky than thoughtful and skillful.
But that’s how shotguns work…that’s there role… People tend to see any weapon that can potentially award an “easy” kill as a “noob” weapon. What they don’t tend to factor in is that shotguns carry a lot of drawbacks with them, the obvious one being range. Another being rate of fire, and still another is if you miss, it can likely lead to your death. There is no spray and pray or even concentrated bursts with a shotgun, so in a way, accuracy can be even more crucial. It carries it’s own values and skillsets.
An easy kill if they get close enough? How did they get so close? If they rushed you, then the other player should have put him down before he closed the gap. If he came from behind, then it is likely it wouldn’t matter which weapon he had. And positioning can easily be as much about skill as aiming a gun, it just utilizes different skills.
An important thing to point out is that the reason I use shotguns, is because I like them, they are fun to use, and they fit my playstyle, not because they give me any sort of unfair advantage over other players. Seems like some people approach using shotguns like it’s some kind of exploit.
The opening of this vid sums up the whole “noob” weapon philosophy:
Terrible connection you’re trying to make here.
So the players using shotguns are the good guys doing the objs and the vast majority of players using rifles are just a-holes running around the maps, gunning people down and kicking puppies in the face?
[QUOTE=BomBaKlaK;454605]Most of the player don’t want to play with the shotgun that’s why there is a loadout (Medic 01 for example) most played than others. and not because something unbalanced. it’s bit different for the engie cause of the mine.
I really think that’s not a balance problem but a loadout issue. And by the way I actually dislike shotguns in DB.[/QUOTE]
I think a big factor is down to the maps. I don’t necessarily like the shotgun (using it or facing it) but I prefer the healing station and the mine in certain areas. And in those areas I actually prefer to have the shotgun as well. The problem? It’s like 1-2, possibly 3, areas on each map. Take LB for example, I really like it inside the ammo-building-thing but for the rest of the map? No way. Same goes for WC, love it in the church/chapel but for the rest of the map? No way.
My feeling exactly. I think the two shotgun ladies would see a lot more playtime if we could swap loadouts in-game. Right now they are too situational, so people tend to pick their SMG-wielding male counterparts as they are more all-around flexible.
So if there was a weapon that you barely had to aim, but you had to be really far away to do max damage then it would be totally cool by most people? The mechanics for most shotguns is one of the reasons why realism does not belong in games. Completely unusable from a distance and super effective at point blank… the weapon itself is just bleh. It ought to serve a less gimmicky purpose. Is there not a reason why the sniper rifles we are used to require headshots to OHK???
[QUOTE=MrFunkyFunk;455069]Terrible connection you’re trying to make here.
So the players using shotguns are the good guys doing the objs and the vast majority of players using rifles are just a-holes running around the maps, gunning people down and kicking puppies in the face?[/QUOTE]
In making your comparison to snipers, you just illustrated why shotguns behave the way they do and why they are viable weapons - they are the complete opposite of sniper weapons, They each cater to different playstyles and fill different roles, yet they share similar strengths and weaknesses.
Range - snipers suffer a disadvantage at close range, shotguns suffer long (and even mid) range disadvantage.
ROF - Due to their high lethality, both sniper rifles and shotguns suffer low ROF.
As for the need of accuracy, they are each on opposite sides of spectrum. Due to their effective range, snipers utilize high accuracy for maximum damage. This also helps explains why quick-scoping, regardless of the skill required, tends to looked down upon in the community, since it essentially “exploits” the weapon, by bypassing it’s weaknesses and maintaining its strengths. Their ability to fire from afar can also put them in a “safe zone,” where sometimes the only effective way to deal with them is to counter-snipe, or to actively hunt them down and kill them. Equally, due to their range, shotguns rely on positioning to maximize damage. Because of this, shotgun users are rarely in a safe zone, since they always need to be in the thick of battle to be effective.
To no fault of their own, shotguns also fire a spray of projectiles, not a single bullet like sniper rifles, making their need or effectiveness of aiming, less of a priority. Their lack of accuracy or need to be accurate, (by “accurate” I mean targeting specific body parts.) is compensated by their sever lack in range and the distance they need to be from the enemy to maximize efficiency. This is not “gimmicky,” this is their role - brute force, CQC engagements. Turning a corner and getting blasted with a shotgun before you even have time to return fire, is no different then a player getting gunned down from a distance because his shotgun was out of range. Sniper rifles serves a role as well, not only in providing fire from afar, but also the psychological effects a skilled sniper can have on the opposing team.
You really seem to be hung up on this notion that not having to aim = no skill required, and in this regard, you are extremely short-sighted. You are also naive to think that you don’t need to aim a shotgun - like the blast radius is so powerful and wide, a player merely has to aim in the general direction of his target and get himself an easy kill. There are instances where a shotgun player will lose a firefight because he he simply shot at the player, rather than shooting at the players head.
You are however right about one thing - realism doesn’t really have a place in video games, unless it is a defining feature of the game. Video games do however require balance, and in comparison to other weapons, shotguns have it, sometimes too much so. Balance is also why your “long distance no aim required” weapon, tends to be absent from gaming.
Odd that snipers function at all ranges, but just become harder to survive at close range unless you practice it. Not to mention you have to aim at the head to get a kill. Seems quite different to me… maybe I’ve missed something.
You did miss something - you are only talking about this specific title. In many other games, a shot anywhere with a sniper rifle at close/mid range will result in a kill. You are also still hung up on the need to aim tangent. As I stated, shotguns utilize different skillsets. You can’t just wield a shotgun and slaughter everyone because you don’'t need to be pinpoint accurate with it. Unlike snipers, shotguns do not function at all ranges, which goes back to them being balanced.
Also, regardless if snipers are effective at all ranges, their intended purpose is long range, which goes back to why no-scoping is looked down upon.
[QUOTE=H0RSE;455169]You did miss something - you are only talking about this specific title. In many other games, a shot anywhere with a sniper rifle at close/mid range will result in a kill. You are also still hung up on the need to aim tangent. As I stated, shotguns utilize different skillsets. You can’t just wield a shotgun and slaughter everyone because you don’'t need to be pinpoint accurate with it. Unlike snipers, shotguns do not function at all ranges, which goes back to them being balanced.
Also, regardless if snipers are effective at all ranges, their intended purpose is long range, which goes back to why no-scoping is looked down upon.[/QUOTE]
I’m hung up on the fact that the shotgun does not at all fit with the weapon mechanics of this game… snipers in this game cannot noscope at point blank either btw. Scope shooting throws a short delay on the sniper, but still you have to aim perfectly on the head. If a shotgun is going to exist in DB it needs to fit the overall model and not just regurgitate the run of the mill mechanics that you find in CoD because it doesn’t make sense in the bigger scheme of the game. I want a DB shotgun plz.
What would you like to see exactly in a DB shotgun? You referred previously to TF2 as a good example, but despite having more hours on that game than I care to admit, I don’t see what you mean… The shotguns in TF2 still have a very significant damage falloff and spread, so they are deadly at point blank and become useless fairly quickly as range increases. I’m no expert but their behavior reflect what I would expect from a real-life shotgun, no clever or original game mechanism there or did I miss something
I used TF2 as an example because it is a lot different than most shotguns, but it’s not perfect. Fall off exists on all weapons except maybe the sniper so it would still be there.
Off the top of my head as a rough example…
-Increased movement speed and jump height with a shotgun (maybe 1.5x running and idk for jump)
-no headshot multiplier
-fair amount of recoil (to require some re-aiming)
-user controlled fire rate (fire as quickly as you can and the bloom will gradually max out decreasing accuracy, fire consecutive shots at a reasonable speed and maintain a spread that is around the size of a player’s chest)
-50dmg close range (all shots in hitbox)
-25dmg mid range (all shots in hitbox)
-scoping reduces fall-off by some % and has a fixed firing rate/spread
So basically you end up compensating positional effectiveness with superior movement capabilities, but the range and complexity of use is expanded. Ideal aiming for the chest mass would still require some consistent aim and weapon control practice. Though those are just ideas that popped into my head you get where I’m going.
The thing that makes the the shotguns most unique in TF2, has more to do with capabilities of the class that uses it rather than he weapon itself.
-Increased movement speed and jump height with a shotgun (maybe 1.5x running and idk for jump)
Has to do with the character, not the weapon
-no headshot multiplier
Why not? If you propose this, then I propose snipers do negligible dmg everywhere except the head.
-fair amount of recoil (to require some re-aiming)
Shotguns in most games already have this, often times too much recoil.
-user controlled fire rate (fire as quickly as you can and the bloom will gradually max out decreasing accuracy, fire consecutive shots at a reasonable speed and maintain a spread that is around the size of a player’s chest)
And what about pump action shotguns? Are you suggesting mixing the aspects of both pump action and semi/full auto shotguns into some sort of hybrid weapon? Why should shotguns behave like this but not any other weapon in the game?
-50dmg close range (all shots in hitbox)
-25dmg mid range (all shots in hitbox)
Define “close” and “mid” range. Do I need to give the target an enema to achieve that 50 dmg?
-scoping reduces fall-off by some % and has a fixed firing rate/spread
scoping with a shotgun should add a very small advantage if any. The only time scoping should matter, is when using alternate ammo, like slugs. The fact that you need to be in close range should negate the importance or need to have to aim. Aiming decreases weapon movement, and in CQC situations, (also coupled with the weapons slow ROF) this further gimps the weapon. How will you achieve “superior movement capabilities” with the shotgun, while aiming?
It seems to me you are trying for 1 of 2 things (or both):
you are trying to add mechanics to the shotgun that don’t need to be there, just so they can cater more to how you think they should behave so perhaps you personally might want to actually use them.
you see the shotgun as a “noob” weapon that requires no skill, yet reaps too much reward, and thus are trying to incorporate mechanics that requires the player to exhibit (according to you) a greater degree of skill in order to effectively use them.
Or simply the really blunt, crude explanation - you are butthurt over shotguns for whatever reason, and want to change them.
As far I see it, shotguns should be have like well, shotguns. They should operate similar to how players that use them expect them to behave, instead of turning them into a Frankenstein experiment.
[QUOTE=H0RSE;455244]The thing that makes the the shotguns most unique in TF2, has more to do with capabilities of the class that uses it rather than he weapon itself.
Has to do with the character, not the weapon
Why not? If you propose this, then I propose snipers do negligible dmg everywhere except the head.
Shotguns in most games already have this, often times too much recoil.
And what about pump action shotguns? Are you suggesting mixing the aspects of both pump action and semi/full auto shotguns into some sort of hybrid weapon? Why should shotguns behave like this but not any other weapon in the game?
Define “close” and “mid” range. Do I need to give the target an enema to max my dmg?
scoping with a shotgun should add a very small advantage if any. The fact that you need to be in close range should negate the importance or need to have to aim. Aiming decreases weapon movement, and in CQC situations, (also coupled with the weapons slow ROF) this further gimps the weapon.
It seems to me you are trying for 1 of 2 things (or both):
you are trying to add mechanics to the shotgun that don’t need to be there, just so they can cater more to how you think they should behave so perhaps you personally might want to actually use them.
you see the shotgun as a “noob” weapon that requires no skill, yet reaps too much reward, and thus are trying to incorporate mechanics that requires the player to exhibit (according to you) a greater degree of skill in order to effectively use them.
Or simply the really blunt, crude explanation - you are butthurt over shotguns for whatever reason, and want to change them.
As far I see it, shotguns should be have like well, shotguns. They should operate similar to how players that use them expect them to behave, instead of turning them into a Frankenstein experiment.[/QUOTE]
Too lazy to multiquote so…
Certain weapons effecting character speed is not new… and imo works well.
I do think snipers should do negligible damage outside of the head (35-40dmg body shots imo).
Recoil is an excellent mechanic when balancing certain weapon types.
I’d be fine with other weapons functioning like that as they originally were trying to attempt it. The problem was that all other guns had such a high RoF that it was non-effective. A shotgun being the slowest firing weapon next to a sniper rifle can handle it, allowing for more player control with the weapon (ie faster kills up close, but still useable at mid-ranges).
Close and mid are based off of the ranges of the guns already in the game. Let’s call mid-range the typical distance of the lower hallway on LB 1st obj to the cooridoor outside. Close range being only a few player spaces away with breathing room.
Scoping is a sacrifice of speed for accuracy in most cases. If a weapon is still functional in hipfire, scoping simply offers a means of using a weapon to an extent at longer ranges or if an enemy is peeking over cover.
1a. All I can say is the current shotgun does not fit in the game.
2a. The shotgun is a noob weapon in the hands of any player.
3a. My main problem is that shotguns are so gimmicky that they will only be used by cheap thrill seekers who think running head on into players is a skill. I want them to involve some real thinking and complex mechanics so that they can be enjoyed by all and so that they don’t have such extreme situational effectiveness. There’s only a few weapons that a player can die 100 in a row and then get a kill without doing anything differently, and one of those is the generic shotgun…
If you’re running head on into players, you’re doing it wrong.
if you’re getting 100 deaths before you get a kill, you’re doing it wrong.
I really don’t know how else to get through to you the fact that effectively using a shotgun utilizes a different skillset than what you seem to using as a basis for “skill” with a weapon. I don’t know if you are only thinking about 1v1 engagements when you speak your mind or what, but you continue to be short sighted on the subject. Shotguns have more than enough disadvantages against them that effectively using them needs some sort of skillset. I remember hearing similar “no skill” arguments in the Brink forums when talking about the minigun.
All that you seem to consistently achieve, is showing your genuine dislike for shotguns, which kind of discredits your arguments.
