Semi-Auto spread bug.

(PixelTwitch) #1

//youtu.be/YP4YvXt797Q

Basically, if you jump and then ADS, you reach maximum spread that does not normalise after landing on the ground. Meaning it makes more sense to NOT ADS when in mid air. The reason I believe this is a bug is because if you ADS and then jump, the spread remains normal. This only happens when you ADS while you are already in mid air.

(spookify) #2

Very nice report!!!

(Szakalot) #3

yup, well spotted

(Smooth) #4

This was introduced as part of the spread-state changes and is actually working as intended.

By iron-sighting while jumping you gain extra accuracy if you shoot while mid-air. This gain is at the cost of the increased spread when landing.

If you want to maintain the tight spread when you land, stay iron-sighting. You then still gain the accuracy increase at the cost of reduced vision & mobility.

Pressing iron-sight every time you jump to negate the spread penalty is not something we want to encourage or allow. It was a hidden, unintended mechanic that doesn’t make sense.

We discussed disabling iron-sights entirely during jumping but decided against taking that control away from the player. That may still be where we go though if we need to better match player expectations.

PS. We’re still looking into the fire-rate bug though :slight_smile:

(PixelTwitch) #5

Seriously its janky as hell…

Such horrible design just like the scope sway. I honestly wonder what on earth you guys are doing at times…
It is so bad I honestly right now am laughing at the screen struggling to think of words…

Just like the sway this is going to have wrong effect because now I am either going to jump around like a mad man just spamming shots from ironsights or be punished LESS by long jumping into fights and not using the ADS mechanic. I am seriously baffled here…

This was a skilful aspect of play managing the ADS and movement and this system just destroys the movement gun play of a small handful of weapons.
“stay in iron sights” I struggle to believe were even being serious when you said that. So I just play like a noob and get rewarded… amazing…

(Smooth) #6

What we’re thinking is that we don’t want jumping and in combat to be effective at all apart from escape/evasion. That’s the intention.

The extra evasion players gain by jumping needs to have a significant cost, otherwise it becomes the de-facto means of playing.

Like I said, we considered disabling iron-sight entirely when jumping and this may still happen. Another option is just having iron-sight having zero impact at all when jumping (Edit: as in just taking on the jumping spread). Right now though we have much bigger issues to resolve.

I also disagree that it was a ‘skillfull’ mechanic. It was playing the system and simply pressing iron-sight every time you jumped to gain the improved spread without any cost when you landed. You could have even set this up with a macro if you wanted.

I understand your frustration since it impacts a method of playing that you’ve gotten used to and I apologise for that but the game is still in Beta and continuing to change.

Basically it’s a bad idea to iron-sight when jumping at all unless you intend on using iron-sight when you land. Just like it’s a bad idea to jump and fire.

(Bangtastic) #7

But when you jump, ironsight and then shoot at enemies, in the time you shot the first bullets you are already on the ground. It doesn’t make any sense to use ironsights mid-air for a splitsecond anyway. I really like the thought you guys put into this mechanism.

On the other hand Imo ironsight should only give you an advantage while touching the ground. There shouldn’t be any gained advantage when you stay ironsight and spam jump. And this mechanism is flawed right there, since it doesn’t account for snipers. So they can jump and ironsight all day, and hit accurately, because they always shoot before they land.

(PixelTwitch) #8

Sorry, the last response had caught me by surprise and my response was that of a frustrated player.

Let me be clear on my findings though…
This system ONLY really negatively impacts the K-121, Draiss, Stark and BR-16 at this point in time due to the max spread when standing and moving. So right off the bat we have a inconsistency. Providing I tap iron sights before I press jump, I do not get punished, this means your only actually impacting people that wish to long jump/sprint jump INTO a fight and this is something that can not really be done multiple times within a fight so is not really spam.

So you fail to penalize the people that spam jump providing they just hold down ironsights.
providing I press ironsights during ADAD spam and then jump, I can let go and not be penalized.

The usage I am trying to defend is very different from the usage you claim to be against. Yet the system does little to punish what you target but massively nerfs something that is not spammy, does require thought and timing and at the same time does not punish people equally.

To say well you had decent accuracy for that 1 second you was in the air so for the next 5 seconds on the ground your done for is not a good system in my mind.

Using the sprint and long jump + wall jump round a corner to get the jump on your enemy with the ironsight for the head. After a few shots you lose them due to recoil and movement so you un-ADS to get a clear view and are punished for the whole fight.

The same long jump + wall jump combo with ironsights and get in a fight with multiple people but you are still spread after killing a guy with ironsights and then turning to hipfire.

Pre-aiming a position but seeing no one there than going back to sprint leaves the spread much higher than it would normally for an extended period of time.

This system is going to force me to play in the very ways you claim you are trying to avoid because like with the sway, you have nerfed the less abusive way much more than the real problem.

Finally… let me just say the problem is not with the ironsights or the stread its with the ability to jump multiple times in a fight without movement penelties…

(Smooth) #9

Just chatting with SRSKap, a third potential solution is introducing a separate spread state that’s just used for jumping while iron-sighted.

If this was the same as ‘running’ then there’s not gain or loss on landing but you would gain a some accuracy in mid-air.

It would also allow us to introduce a little spread to jumping sniper shots…

(Szakalot) #10

[QUOTE=Smooth;532011]Just chatting with SRSKap, a third potential solution is introducing a separate spread state that’s just used for jumping while iron-sighted.

If this was the same as ‘running’ then there’s not gain or loss on landing but you would gain a some accuracy in mid-air.

It would also allow us to introduce a little spread to jumping sniper shots…[/QUOTE]

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(PixelTwitch) #11

[QUOTE=Smooth;532011]Just chatting with SRSKap, a third potential solution is introducing a separate spread state that’s just used for jumping while iron-sighted.

If this was the same as ‘running’ then there’s not gain or loss on landing but you would gain a some accuracy in mid-air.

It would also allow us to introduce a little spread to jumping sniper shots…[/QUOTE]

It does sound like a better solution than what we have currently.
Personally I feel that spread while in the air should be greater when not iron sighted.
I also believe that the real solution to the jumping sniper is limit number of sequential jumps while scoped.
I also believe to nerf the jump spamming on ironsights you need to punish jump height and X&Y movement speed.

If you are ironsighed and you jump the jump should be restricted to 80% of the full height, second jump 70% and third jump 60%.
All further jumps 50% and X&Y movement should also scale down. This would make jump spamming useless as you will be a basically doing half height jumps on the spot.

Honestly, I feel where the game lacks right now is entering a fight.
and the system you have now and the system you mention does not really help that out.

I believe that you should be able to enter a fight in almost anyway you can imagine but once you are in combat you decide what to do out of a number of options. These include ADADA spam, Crouching, Ironsighting or standing still. The only real problem is not with the aim, but with the ability to jump spam and crouch spam at the moment. even with huge spread punishment, it is very hard to balance the punishment with the gain of doing so. Continuing to mess with this just makes a super complicated system to understand and a greater feeling of inconsistency.

Finally, I feel adding random spread to the sniper scope is the wrong way to go about this. Nerf the movement not the spread. By removing the ability to jump shot you nerf the sniper to a point where he would be useless compared to other “classes”. However, the reliance on spamming the jump could be removed without massively effecting the ability to pull off a crazy shot all together.

(Szakalot) #12

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;532022]
Finally, I feel adding random spread to the sniper scope is the wrong way to go about this. Nerf the movement not the spread. By removing the ability to jump shot you nerf the sniper to a point where he would be useless compared to other “classes”. However, the reliance on spamming the jump could be removed without massively effecting the ability to pull off a crazy shot all together.[/QUOTE]

based on the dirtycups, Its hard to imagine snipers becoming useless, just because they can’t jump-snipe with 100% effectiveness.

(PixelTwitch) #13

Actually snipers have become less effective week on week since they first started taking a main slot on a team.
A large percentage of the shots hit in the cup also include a jump.
Things are even harder now since Sparks was added as she can hip fire a single shot across map and kill a sniper easier than they can kill her.
Once redeye is in vas gets a major nerf due to smoke also.

It’s already dropping down to a “situational” pick and I imagine if randomness was added it would likely be used less and more importantly less effectively in future.

(Rémy Cabresin) #14

[QUOTE=Smooth;532011]Just chatting with SRSKap, a third potential solution is introducing a separate spread state that’s just used for jumping while iron-sighted.

If this was the same as ‘running’ then there’s not gain or loss on landing but you would gain a some accuracy in mid-air.

It would also allow us to introduce a little spread to jumping sniper shots…[/QUOTE]

Personally, I’d keep it as it is as I think it’s silly if a player jumping around can have the same level of spread/accuracy as a running player. That said, the separate state for jumping would be a good thing I think as it allows finer tweaking. Maybe make is so that jumping results in a curve in the spread. My massive paint graph skills(the idea):


The flat line is a player’s accuracy state while running.
A=Jump, in both hipfire and ADS spread is drastically increased at lift-off(less accuracy but if in iron-sight still slightly better than hipfire.)
B=Apex of the jump(highest point) the spread is back to the same/close the the same as in the running state.
C=Jumping spread state

This would mean that sniping while jumping is still possible to some degree, but snipers can only hit good accuracy in the apex of their jump which would make them happy but it would require more timing/skill than the current state where they can just shoot whenever they want. And jumping mid fight would mean their is a punishment for using jumping mid fight, but jumping into a fight wouldn’t be as punished since in the fight after the apex you are close to normal accuracy again. Escaping with jumps would still be possible as you’re jumping away anyway. Overall, it would a consistent feeling system once people are used to it(wouldnt take long) and I think it’s a nice balance between jump vs spread. As PixelTwitch said, harsher nerfing(with the mercs coming up in mind) would render snipers almost useless so the jumping thing wouldn’t be that horrible as long as it’s something that requires a degree of skill, versus the literally kindergarten level it takes atm to hit shots :stuck_out_tongue:

My suggestion anyway :smiley:

(Smooth) #15

By the way, we need a little more info on this, videos etc. as QA still can’t reproduce it :frowning:

(Kroad) #16

i will never understand why the devs and majority of players think that jumping is a terrible noskill thing to do, while adad crouchspamming is beautiful and encouraged

jumping should imo have the same accuracy as adad which should have same accuracy as standing still, and you’ll find that people will still adad crouchspam over jumping the majority of the time because it’s less predictable

only time i can see jumping used is walljump spam in tight corridors, and I still don’t see anything wrong with that

there is really no reason as to why jumping is a bad thing, just that players aren’t used to aiming at people that aren’t adading. not really a fast paced skillful movement game when half the movement options are limited

(Szakalot) #17

[QUOTE=Kroad;532034]i will never understand why the devs and majority of players think that jumping is a terrible noskill thing to do, while adad crouchspamming is beautiful and encouraged

jumping should imo have the same accuracy as adad which should have same accuracy as standing still, and you’ll find that people will still adad crouchspam over jumping the majority of the time because it’s less predictable

only time i can see jumping used is walljump spam in tight corridors, and I still don’t see anything wrong with that

there is really no reason as to why jumping is a bad thing, just that players aren’t used to aiming at people that aren’t adading. not really a fast paced skillful movement game when half the movement options are limited[/QUOTE]

while im with you on jumping being a part of your movement arsenal, I do not think you should have the same accuracy as ADAD spam. Being above an opponent makes it easier to score headshots, and makes it more difficult to get your head hit. Plus, the walljump techniques can make your jumps pretty unpredictable as well, and while not as unpredictable as good ADAD+crouch, at the speed the game is played at, its more than enough to throw people off.

I’d like jumping to become semi-viable (it kind of is, with SMGs), but suffer bigger penalties than other types of movements.

(Bangtastic) #18

there is no problem with jumping.

but as a vasilli jumping around behind any cover, you expose yourself a splitsecond. while you know where ppl are with your heartbeat sensor. They can’t kill you unless the other team also runs a sniper, even though it can be still hard to hit him, especially when he changes positions.

So this encourages ppl to play him like this; question: Is this the anticipated and intended playstyle which devs aim for? Personally I feel this is too cheesy.

(Kroad) #19

[QUOTE=Tast1c;532041]there is no problem with jumping.

but as a vasilli jumping around behind any cover, you expose yourself a splitsecond. while you know where ppl are with your heartbeat sensor. They can’t kill you unless the other team also runs a sniper, even though it can be still hard to hit him, especially when he changes positions.

So this encourages ppl to play him like this; question: Is this the anticipated and intended playstyle which devs aim for? Personally I feel this is too cheesy.[/QUOTE]

shoot the heartbeat sensor
move somewhere else
crouchspam adad
countersnipe

off the top of my head

also note that if the sniper misses his shot, sure he is still alive, but his teammates might not be. Jumpsniping fro; behind cover works well for preserving the sniper, but it is not as consistent as sniping out in the open and if he misses his shots due to this, it leaves his team in a 4v5 situation

honestly, i can sort of understand why people don’t like vasilis jumpsniping from behind cover. I don’t agree, but i can understand.

I just can’t understand why people hate the concept of jumping in combat so much

(Glottis-3D) #20

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;531954]
//youtu.be/YP4YvXt797Q

Basically, if you jump and then ADS, you reach maximum spread that does not normalise after landing on the ground. Meaning it makes more sense to NOT ADS when in mid air. The reason I believe this is a bug is because if you ADS and then jump, the spread remains normal. This only happens when you ADS while you are already in mid air.[/QUOTE]

is it just me, or the Max Spread for this gun is insane?
He is standing 3 meters away and spread radius is wide like Santa’s underpants!!!