Rewards and Player Retention


(woodchip) #1

For better or worse, rewards are a primary reason people stick with a game. Some games don’t lend themselves to a compelling reward system and have to survive only on gameplay. Dirtybomb is in an unfortunate middle ground: it has a natural, strong reward system, but that reward system is so miserly that it does little to keep players engaged. So Dirtybomb competes for players with one hand behind its back.

The problem is simple: the reward to time ratio is far too low, especially for newer players. In the first 8 hours of Dirtybomb you get 1) one bronze+ loadout, 2) a gold loadout for aura/sky, 3) enough credits to almost buy 1 merc. And once you unlock that first merc, you are immediately 15-20 hours away from your next major unlock. To me, that is nuts. Keep in mind, the level 8 player isn’t doing very well. On average he’s going strongly negative, and on average he doesn’t yet have a firm grasp on the mechanics that make DB worthy of his time. He’s trying out a F2P shooter recommended by Steam, and at 8 hours in, he’s given it a thoroughly fair shake. His first impressions were that the game was pretty fun, that it was fast, and that he isn’t very good at it.

And it is at this moment that SD asks him to invest another 20 hours of grinding to unlock the next thing. Supposing he’s one of the minority that decides to bear with it, he can expect to unlock maybe 15 cases during that time. On average, these are virtually worthless: most of them are lead cards he for mercs he doesn’t own, a couple of them are ironss, and one might be a bronze, which would be pretty exciting, except most probably she/he doesn’t own that merc either. The average case opening experience ‘rewards’ him with items that are almost truly useless.

That’s so disastrous it’s almost unique to Dirtybomb. It’s like Overwatch’s lootbox system, if the odds of unlocking a legendary were reduced 10 fold. The danger of lootboxes is that once you open them they are gone, so if you don’t value their contents you are in a situation where that X amount of play you just invested to unlock them is almost literally wasted. So if you play DB for 10 hours and earn 7 boxes and the credits for 8 more, at the end of your opening there is a strong likelihood you got nothing you wanted. That is an unfortunately direct way of letting you know that the last 10 hours of gameplay were profitless, which is why most games try to avoid this situation.

Default cases need to be way, way better. Maybe some analyst told you that they needed to be this way to maximize profit. It’s hard to see it that way now. There is enormous room to improve case rewards while still incenvitizing and almost virtually requiring real payment to unlock the coolest stuff. I have about 1000 hours played, and in that time I have naturally opened 1 cobolt, and 4 golds. Doubling, or even tripling that number is hardly going to max me out. There are almost 160 different loadouts, and maybe 100 good ones. Grinding cobolts in all of them is safely impossible. It would still be safely impossible if they dropped at 10x the current rate (!). Currently, paying customers get around 80-90% of their desirable loadouts from paying. Changing this to 70-80% does not seem like an enormous risk.

Recommendations:

  1. Remove lead cards from cases (it might be OK to keep them in some form as new player reward fodder). Opening leads feels bad. Not just in the ‘unlucky’ way, but in the actively ‘ugh, worthless’ way. Having 65% of cases be this awful makes grinding in DB an almost negative experience. Instead, replace lead with a variety of credits and scrap (in variable amounts).

  2. Give new players a lot of iron. When you are new, getting iron cards feels good. And because they are virtually worthless, there’s little lost by handing them out like candy. The first game played with any merc should award you a random iron for that merc. Etc. Iron cards are already trivially cheap to craft, but having them drop would feel better.

  3. Further lower the barrier to entry for buying new mercs. Cut the real money cost a little bit. Perhaps add some quests/missions that facilitate unlocking (quest: the next merc costs 2k less to unlock). Players that are gradually unlocking mercs are the players who will stick around.

  4. Increase the drop rate of Bronze+ by 50%+. Probably, this number is still too conservative. Perhaps keep cobolt the same to preserve its unique prestige.

  5. Weight the probability distribution of cases in favor of mercs that the player already owns. Unlocking a silver loadout in the Merc you like is a powerful reward for newer players. It should happen more often. Cobolts should be excluded from this mechanic to avoid manipulation.

  6. Add a 1x crafting kit to every arsenal crate. This gives players a slowly accruing resource (which helps them stay engaged… only 3x crafting kits away!) and also engages them to the crafting system, which otherwise new players learn to avoid in favor of saving credits for mercs.

  7. Pity timers. They might reduce the sense of helplessness that sometimes comes from such a random process.

The loadout system is flexible and powerful. It’s a great model. There’s no reason Dirtybomb should be less rewarding than hearthstone or heroes of the storm or Paladins. But it is, enormously so, and I think that is reflected in the playerbase.


(GatoCommodore) #2

i think they need an incetive for people to git gud

like special trinket if you use certain mercs for 100 hrs
or special skin that changes the merc look if they considered to be really good/understand fully how to operate certain mercs


(Press E) #3

I’ll admit I didn’t read most of the post outside of your recommendations, but In agree DB needs to reduce its grind significantly. Your suggestions might be a bit too drastic, but I personally think almost everything in this game is insanely overvalued.

The counterargument I’ve heard brought up to this, is that a bigger grind gives players who stick around something to do for longer. While it’s true, I don’t think it’s the whole truth. Usually players who stick around long enough to get everything they want like the game enough to stay anyways. The game itself is their reward, not cards or mercs, meaning all the grind largely does is scare away new players.

Most importantly though, I believe people should keep playing because they want to, not because they’re being “paid” to with new skins or whatever. I’d rather see the focus of DB go towards making it as enjoyable as possible for everyone, and not necessarily trying to pay people to play something they don’t like enough to stick around otherwise.


(Jostabeere) #4

@GatoCommodore said:
i think they need an incetive for people to git gud

like special trinket if you use certain mercs for 100 hrs
or special skin that changes the merc look if they considered to be really good/understand fully how to operate certain mercs

@GatoCommodore said:
i think they need an incetive for people to git gud

like special trinket if you use certain mercs for 100 hrs
or special skin that changes the merc look if they considered to be really good/understand fully how to operate certain mercs

or they fix MM and give people rewards if they get better in the game.


(K1X455) #5

I don’t agree on pitty timers. Bronze loadout is already good for pittance…


(GatoCommodore) #6

@Jostabeere said:

@GatoCommodore said:
i think they need an incetive for people to git gud

like special trinket if you use certain mercs for 100 hrs
or special skin that changes the merc look if they considered to be really good/understand fully how to operate certain mercs

@GatoCommodore said:
i think they need an incetive for people to git gud

like special trinket if you use certain mercs for 100 hrs
or special skin that changes the merc look if they considered to be really good/understand fully how to operate certain mercs

or they fix MM and give people rewards if they get better in the game.

well thats a must.
The title of the discussion is

Rewards and Player Retention
so i think MM is a different topic.


(Meerkats) #7

Let me tell you hwat, Bobby.

Back in the day, veterans like me shoveled dirt, day in and day out, and got nothing. Cobalts were so rare, when one of your friends got one, everybody would fucking gather round the campfire to listen to the non-story of how that shit went down. There were no arsenal crates, no crafting, no freebie elite cases. Most of us played Dirty Bomb for maybe a year before we got our first cobalt. It was dicks. In fact, I got my first cobalt around lvl.40 iirc. To this day, I still only have two cobalts, at lvl.70.

Right now, for hitting lvl.4, you get a case with a guaranteed gold and an elite case. I have twice seen players < lvl.6 on stream opening those cases and pulling cobalts.

That guy hasn’t played Dirty Bomb since. Cool.

I go into matches, and I see players < lvl.10 rolling cobalts regularly. Then there are arsenal crates. Arsenal crates are amazing. Free elite cases, expert cases and credit boosters. I’ve gotten like five elite cases through arsenal crates ( too bad all but like one were silver ); that shit dank.

That said, it seems it used to be you’d get maybe four cases per two hours of gameplay whereas now, it’s like three. That kinda sucks. In exchange, drop rate percentages for cases were improved with the chance of lead being decreased to 65% from 75% iirc. So equipment cases? Also improved.

Tbf, the rate of rewards during events and while playing ranked is pretty ass, but those aren’t things you’re talking about.

Overall… you newbies have it pretty good. The rate of rewards is for the most part fine. It’s not perfect, but it has been improved to what I think is pretty reasonable. If I could change it, I would make it so new players get an one time use voucher that reduces the cost of purchasing one merc by say 25%. Additionally, unlocking a merc should give you some special cases containing only loadouts for that merc as a starter kit of sorts. One expert case would be adequate, so you’re guaranteed to have a bronze to roll with for that merc.


(woodchip) #8

I think the free cases new players get is generally a good thing. In terms of absolute value of reward, the first few games are plenty rewarding. I’m more concerned with the long stretch around lvls 7-8 where the time / reward ratio drops off a cliff.

Right now, first few games you play gets a free gold card, which is actually pretty silly. That makes Gold cards seem trivial. You have no idea what a Gold card signifies when you first get one; whereas if you got a ‘free’ gold card later that would be more exciting/impactful. There’s also a mismatch when it turns out that actually you you will probably never unlock another Gold Card again unless you play for another 100 hours+. The Lvl 1 gold card is actually a pretty important mistake.

It would be better to have the free gold card reward come later, maybe around level 10. You want your reward scheme to build a sense of progression and accomplishment. Right now for a variety of reasons it doesn’t do that as well as it could.


(Press E) #9

@K1X455 said:
I don’t agree on pitty timers. Bronze loadout is already good for pittance…

For paid event cases or something like that, I don’t see why not. If you’re going to spend 20 or 30 dollars on overpriced cases, not getting what you tried to buy is just annoying as hell, and encourages people not to spend as much money on this game.

@Meerkats said:
Let me tell you hwat, Bobby.

Back in the day, veterans like me shoveled dirt, day in and day out, and got nothing. Cobalts were so rare, when one of your friends got one, everybody would @$!# gather round the campfire to listen to the non-story of how that @$!# went down. There were no arsenal crates, no crafting, no freebie elite cases. Most of us played Dirty Bomb for maybe a year before we got our first cobalt. In fact, I got my first cobalt around lvl.40 iirc. To this day, I still only have two cobalts, at lvl.70.

Right now, for hitting lvl.4, you get a case with a guaranteed gold and an elite case. I have twice seen players < lvl.6 on stream opening those cases and pulling cobalts. I go into matches, and I see players < lvl.10 rolling cobalts regularly. Then there are arsenal crates. Arsenal crates are amazing. Free elite cases, expert cases and credit boosters. I’ve gotten like five elite cases through arsenal crates ( too bad all but like one were silver ); that @$!# dank.

I’ve been playing DB since long before arsenal crates as well (got my first cobalt even later, around level 50 or 60 I think), and I wouldn’t mind if they reduced the grind. Just because we sat through it doesn’t mean it should be like that forever. It is an open beta after all, and keeping a grind that your community hates, just because early players had to deal with it, just seems like a silly idea xP


(Ptiloui) #10

Because people play for rewards ? I thought they were playing because they enjoy the game…


(Nail) #11

Old school gamer = Navy S.E.A.L.
today’s gamer = Mall Ninja


(SnakekillerX) #12

Rewards are not the primary reason I play a game… I didn’t read past that.
I’ll agree that rewards are the only reason some players play a game. Having rewards to constantly obtain isn’t what makes a game good though.

I play to get better at the game and have fun playing it.

Doing a 180 degree turn in mid air and getting a headshot and kill using a pistol on a guy who was trying to gun you down is the kind of reward I look for in games.


(woodchip) #13

You can think of rewards as the MSG in the gaming soup. The reality is that games with a strong ‘reward loop’ do wildly better than games that don’t. In terms of raw gameplay, Hearthstone is not the greatest game ever made. In terms of raw gameplay, Paladins isn’t better than Dirtybomb, let alone 20 times better. And yet, Steamcharts.

But both HS and Paladins have refined and powerful reward loops. And that is obviously a major part of their outsize success.

Maybe we all wish this wasn’t true, but there is a bunch of strong evidence that suggests how a game rewards players is as important as the game itself, in terms of attracting and keeping players.

You have to appreciate that Hearthstone and crew (Paladins, Heroes of the Storm, virtually every top 10 steam game except Dota2) are pretty sophisticated systems for hacking the human reward circuitry. You get a pack every day opening the pack feels good almost every time, especially when you are on the newer end. The pack opening noise and animation itself is a minor miracle of manipulation.

I’m not championing these things for their own sake. I’m championing DirtyBomb, which I don’t like to see suffer simply because its competition does a simple thing better. DB is twice the game Paladins is, and Paladins is 15 times as popular. Time to play a little dirty, IMO.


(Szakalot) #14

personally, im happy to leave the casino-kids who constantly need their reward centres stimulated to other games. Id rather have dedicated players who consider the game as its own reward, and are looking for personal progress, and not a pixel bar shifting on the screen through an endless grind.


(bgyoshi) #15

I’ll let y’all in on a secret

Rewards make me quit games, often

Rewards also keep me away from starting games, often

I still refuse to spend money on Overwatch. I would play it if it’s free, but the game is so filled with rewards and aesthetic items that it’s a red flag. And so instead of getting it, I watched my roommate play it, and it makes sense. The actual game play is so weak and copycatted from TF2 that you might as well just download TF2. But hey, they have to keep people playing somehow, so they offer shiny rewards.

I won’t give Paladins the time of day for the same reason. A free to play who’s main draw is items? Forget it.

Hearthstone is just Magic: The Gathering with online rewards. I already play that on actual paper for free in exchange for judging events.

Heroes of the Storm is a joke copycat of DoTA 2 and LoL.

Most of the popular games today ARE just weak or copycat games with rewards built in to keep people hooked. That’s not fun, that’s just addiction. And I already played all of those games 15 years ago when I was a teenager.

Part of what I like about DB is that the main draw of the game has ALWAYS been the game play, and the items ALWAYS take a back seat.

I agree that the grind needs to come down. I much preferred the old trade-up system for cards, it was a lot more rewarding and it actually gave purpose to lead cards. I had a plethora of Gold cards by level 15 simply by trading up my unwanted cards.

Event cards are too difficult to get. If the RNG was completely removed, I think 17 hours or $10 is a perfectly good grind to get the exact card you want. But if they keep the RNG, we really should be rolling the dice on an event card every 2 or 3 hours instead.

But I disagree that rewards need to improve

I disagree that SD needs to try and compete with the top 10 on steam by adding a ton more aesthetic trash

I agree that your analysis is correct, but for the wrong reasons.

What you suggest WOULD increase the amount of players in the game.

What you suggest WOULD increase the amount of kids in the game.

What you suggest WOULD DECREASE the amount of people that enjoy playing DB for the game.

You think leavers and abusive players are bad now? Wait until all the kids under 12 that wanna kill baddies and pwn noobz and earn $$$ come flooding in with mommy’s credit card dying for the rewards and the e-dick pump.


(Ptiloui) #16

Thing is, there is not really another game like Dirty Bomb. You can compare Overwatch and Paladins, but you can’t compare any of them and Dirty Bomb. This is not the same gameplay and, in fact, those games have not the same audience. So doing like OW or Paladins won’t get more players. Maybe you’ll have a peak, but those players won’t stay because DB’s gameplay doesn’t fit their taste, even with cool rewards.


(Press E) #17

@Ptiloui said:
Because people play for rewards ? I thought they were playing because they enjoy the game…

Ask anyone in ranked why they’re playing. Usually the answer is “for the cards”, lol.

Happens with a lot of other events too. People grind away trying to get whatever reward the event offers, because they know it’ll only be around for a certain amount of time.


(woodchip) #18

Well, I think there is this comforting delusion sometimes where fans and developers of less popular games come to the conclusion that their game is struggling because it’s just too sophisticated for the average market. Probably there is some truth to this sometimes.

But it’s also important to keep in mind that many very sophisticated or hardcore games have become wildly popular. There’s more going on here than Paladins’ gameplay having a larger natural market (though that might be part of it).

When you play Paladins the sheer excellence and pervasiveness of its reward mechanics are jolting. It might be a bad thing that games have become so adept at exploiting our reward loops that rewards can make the difference between a game played by thousands and a game played by millions. But seeing as how that is the case, deciding not to play the reward game just means many gamers will spend their time on an inferior game with a better reward system.

Anyway, I doubt Dirtybomb’s reward system is deliberately bad just to keep out the reward addled hoi polloi. I’d love to be wrong about that but… no one is that crazy, right?


(bgyoshi) #19

@woodchip said:
Well, I think there is this comforting delusion sometimes where fans and developers of less popular games come to the conclusion that their game is struggling because it’s just too sophisticated for the average market. Probably there is some truth to this sometimes.

But it’s also important to keep in mind that many very sophisticated or hardcore games have become wildly popular. There’s more going on here than Paladins’ gameplay having a larger natural market (though that might be part of it).

I don’t think we have that kind of pompous idea about DB yet. But DB showcases its game play as the main selling point, whereas Overwatch and Paladins both advertise themselves as being WACKY KRAZEE FUN TIEM LOOK AT HOW GOOFY WE ARE HAHA. And we like that about DB.

I think SD is delusional about the state of Ranked and the changes that need to happen to it to make it gain traction. And I think they’re delusional about the crafting system, and about the grind to get event cards. But they’ve been slowly caving into the player requests and we’re seeing more changes than ever in this half of the year. I suspect their new data gathering tools will help this game a lot too.

So rewards or not, I keep buying into it so that they keep going, because I do believe they will change for the better.


(Ptiloui) #20

@STARRYSOCK said:

@Ptiloui said:
Because people play for rewards ? I thought they were playing because they enjoy the game…

Ask anyone in ranked why they’re playing. Usually the answer is “for the cards”, lol.

Happens with a lot of other events too. People grind away trying to get whatever reward the event offers, because they know it’ll only be around for a certain amount of time.

There was a lot of sarcasm in my sentence :smiley:

I also play ranked for the cards, i wouldn’t bother playing ranked with trolls and people that don’t have a clue of what’s going on during match if there weren’t those rewards. And without events or new mercs, i play way less than usual.

I think the problem with player retention in Dirty Bomb comes from its roots. Players that stick with Dirty Bomb are those that played Enemy Territory or other old fps, and Dirty Bomb remind them in some way the fun they had in those games. Dirty Bomb IS an old school fps after all. New generation of players mostly don’t have this “culture”. You can’t expect them to easily get into it when the market has changed so much.

And this is the problem with Dirty Bomb : trying to stick with its root while trying to get closer to actual FPS gameplay. Veterans feel fooled because the game get closer to new games they don’t like, and younger players are bored because there aren’t all those fancy things they find in other games.

That’s why we have all those different mercs when they could easily be resumed in class (like it was in Alpha).
That’s why each mercs have their own abilities and (recently) their own weapons, even though they are close to what was already in the game.

In the end, i think DB came alive too late : if it was released few years before Blizzard did Overwatch, it could have been the game that redefined the new fps genre, and then reach a great success. But actually, Overwatch did it. And whatever SD is planing to do, i can’t see how players could get back to an older fps style like Dirty Bomb is.