Revive Invincibility needs to go

(subtleChain) #1

I briefly touched the subject in an earlier post but I guess it was too lenghty and the issue didn’t get much attention so I’m coming back to it.

First of all, I’m not completely sure how the mechanic works and I’d appreciate some insight if someone tested things out or has access to the data. From what I understood from playing the game, you are invincible on revive for something like 2 seconds, and shooting ends it.

In my sense, it is a big issue. I understand the need for players not to get frustrated but it often feels really wrong:
When someone gets rezzed it creates a 1v2 situation which means every bullet counts : you’re dead if you don’t kill both enemies with a single mag so you really can’t afford shooting someone that’s invincible. Revive invicibility creates some very awkward: « Should I shoot this enemy player or what » moments. The fact that they are people who might or might not be invincible running around kind of breaks the flow of the game (which is Dirty Bomb’s main strength), in an FPS it should always be safe to shoot an enemy player. Getting punished (and killed) because you emptied your mag on someone who happens to have just been rezed around the corner creates the worst kind of frustration because it’s out of your control.
Getting killed right after respawning does feel frustrating but it’s a necessary evil, and I don’t think it’s really that bad: when you get rezzed in the middle of a firefight it’s pretty obvious that you might just die again. I know it can cause griefing in some games but we already have the ability to suicide, if you feel frustrated you can just press k, which means you keep control on wether you wish to take the “risk” of being revived or not.

(Rhyno) #2

Pretty sure it’s unanimous around here revive invincibility needs to go. You’re not the first to bring the subject up.

(Szakalot) #3

pretty sure its not, as it would pretty much make medics unviable in the game. No one would bother to play the medic, considering their subpar fragging ability.

What we need is a clearer indication of how it works, and when is a player invincible. Something like the defib-electricity running through the player model could indicate easily that this player is invincible.

If you don’t want a 2v1: gotta gib the bodies. In close quarters you can either run interference so the medic doesn’t have a clear reviving shot, or knife the body quickly. At long distance you should always prioritize killing the medic anyways.

(Glot) #4

pretty sure its not, as it would pretty much make medics unviable in the game. No one would bother to play the medic, considering their subpar fragging ability.

What we need is a clearer indication of how it works, and when is a player invisible. Something like the defib-electricity running through the player model could indicate easily that this player is invisible.
[/quote]

yep. invincibility (or some kind of it) should stay to keep reviving in the game.
and yes. a much better indication of revive shield should be introduced.

  1. visual (electicity is a nice way)
  2. sound - different hit sound on shield (+revived person can make some unique ‘Owwwgh’ sounds)
  3. propably a not 100% shield, but a time-dependant strength of a shield could be better idea. (1st second - 100%, 1.5 seconds - 75% shield, 2 seconds - 50%, then no shield)
(Szakalot) #5

different hitsound would solve a lot of problems already. time-dependent shield could work, but I don’t really think its necessary, I’d rather have a clear time stamp.

(Rhyno) #6

pretty sure its not, as it would pretty much make medics unviable in the game. No one would bother to play the medic, considering their subpar fragging ability.

What we need is a clearer indication of how it works, and when is a player invincible. Something like the defib-electricity running through the player model could indicate easily that this player is invisible.

If you don’t want a 2v1: gotta gib the bodies. In close quarters you can either run interference so the medic doesn’t have a clear reviving shot, or knife the body quickly. At long distance you should always prioritize killing the medic anyways.[/quote]
A player who can be revived without penalty and eat bullets in a combat situation is something that should have no place in an FPS game. Want to revive your friends? Kill the person who killed them, then revive them. The reward of being revived should be the act of being revived. Able to continue to play and aid your team in whatever objective. Adding any sort of invincibility to that is asinine.

The only situation any sort of invincibility protection is warranted is in spawn.

(TheNinth) #7

I never noticed any kind of revive invulnerability, people I revived in huge fights dropped fairly quickly.
I wonder if it was because I wasn’t paying attention…

(Nail) #8

it’s been in every SD game, it’ll stay, but I agree a visual clue would be nice addition

(Szakalot) #9

[quote=“Rhyno;7877”]
A player who can be revived without penalty and eat bullets in a combat situation is something that should have no place in an FPS game.[/quote]

Well, I disagree, let me describe where I’m coming from (W:ET): revived players had invincibility for around a second or two while undergoing a ‘raise up’ animation, during which the player cannot control his mouse, but can reload/switch weapons/fire.

This provided a nice environment in which the person being revived is at a disadvantage due to not being to look around, while still giving them enough time to get ready to fight again.

I would welcome a similar mechanic in DB.
Anything between a reviving animation, to slowing down the player immediately after the revive could help players who aren’t used to these mechanics adapt better.

Want to revive your friends? Kill the person who killed them, then revive them. The reward of being revived should be the act of being revived. Able to continue to play and aid your team in whatever objective. Adding any sort of invincibility to that is asinine.

I’ve highlighted the problem you were so kind to bring up yourself. If it is more optimal for a medic to keep fighting than to revive their teammates, why be a medic in the first place (and not a better-fragger class)? If you can kill all the opponents, you don’t really need to revive anyone; you can push on and complete the objective. You can’t really ‘continue to play and aid your team’ if you are being instantly killed again, not to mention how frustrating that is for the revived player.

In any case, I consider this point over-emphasized due to Aura spam we have witnessed in the last two play-tests. Several healing stations, people being instantly at 100% HP after a revive, and the resulting clustershag exacerbated the situation to a point of frustration, in particular for people who weren’t used to these mechanics.

Medics are the first to be targeted in any scrim, and for a good reason. Consider a MOBA analogue (never played any), you don’t go putting all your firepower into taking a tank, you try to take out the fragile support first.

(B_Montiel) #10

We already talked about some possible changes on revives this last week. What was pointed out :

  • Revive protection, mainly due to prevent people to get chain-killed, was thought to be necessary for most of the people.
  • For most of us, we agreed that revived state players should be at least be in a visibly clear position.
  • We also discussed on the fact that revived players are giving a nice protection for the medic who revived them. They are like a big bullet sponge who will keep the medic unharmed behind them. So we thought that revived state should at least be in a crouchy position OR revived players should let bullets go through them (“ghost state”).

Link : forums.dirtybomb.nexon.net/discussion/1473/revived-enemy-protection#latest

(Rhyno) #11

[quote=“B. Montiel;7886”]We already talked about some possible changes on revives this last week. What was pointed out :

  • Revive protection, mainly due to prevent people to get chain-killed, was thought to be necessary for most of the people.
  • For most of us, we agreed that revived state players should be at least be in a visibly clear position.
  • We also discussed on the fact that revived players are giving a nice protection for the medic who revived them. They are like a big bullet sponge who will keep the medic unharmed behind them. So we thought that revived state should at least be in a crouchy position OR revived players should let bullets go through them (“ghost state”).

Link : forums.dirtybomb.nexon.net/discussion/1473/revived-enemy-protection#latest[/quote]
I personally like that third point as well that you mentioned. I’d have no issue with that. Also you could make any invincibility/ghost state immediately cancelled out the moment WASD is pushed or firing of a weapon.

(INF3RN0) #12

Perhaps having the shield absorb a max amount of damage (say 80) would be better.

(Szakalot) #13

I don’t like the idea of a shield.

  • if you kill an opponent and they get revived, you are now fighting 2 opponents with anything 200-300 hp amongst them
  • shield would act like basically an extra batch of HP: if you get revived to full as Fragger; you suddenly have 250 hp or so
  • even if the shield disappears immediately after taking an action it creates a confusing situation where you kind of want to keep shooting the revived player (to wear down the shield) but kind of don’t want to so as to not waste bullets on someone who is about to line up your head

The advantage of zombie-time (invincibility on spawn/revive) is that you can focus fire the reviving medic, and then try to 1on1 the revived player; or it gives you enough time to fallback and regroup.

To me the whole point of this invincibility is to provide a buffer between being dead and getting a cup of tea to being back into action instantly requiring your attention. The follow-up logic is that the revived player is more confused about the immediate situation, compared to everyone else in the firefight. At the moment this confusion is heavily dependent on the skill level, and an experienced player is at a less of a disadvantage from just being revived than an easily flankable newbie. Which is why W:ET mechanic worked so well, as the inability to look around you really put you at a disadvantage, while still giving that very needed 1sec to put your hand on the keyboard again.

(Glot) #14

clear visible obvious invincibility, that ends on action (except mb for walk) or ends after 2 seconds is a nice thing.
even a stupidish golden blur for revived model. - anything that will prevent players to waste bullets on a revived one, and consentrate his damage on medic.

(Shackahn) #15

To me it seems like the revive invulnerability is a key gameplay mechanic, it certainly was in W:ET. If nothing else it forces people to consider gibbing.

It certainly didn’t feel like an issue to me on the recent play tests, not when compared with Aura’s healing station. I think using the revive system can add huge advantages to both attacking and defending teams and is yet another tactical layer to the game.

I agree there needs to be a clear visual indicator, so you can make a desicion to stay and fight or strategically retreat (runaway). You wont find many medics running in to revive players if they are going to get killed every time they do so. The medic class should work in synergy with the other classes, not be a one time revive fodder.

I think the game would be worse without this mechanic.

(The99thProblem) #16

Guys the shield literally works for approximately 1 second. When the invincible player shoots just one bullet, the invincibility-frame ends to ensure that it is not unbalanced.

And there is a bit of an indicator for invincibility: There is an orange shield above the head of the revived ally when they are in your cross hair.

The reason I feel this is necessary is cause when you are down and are resurrected, you need time to readjust to the situation. Also, when you are revived you don’t want to get gunned down or naded by a nade that was intended for someone else. This helps to prevent people camping someone who is being revived from farming kills.

(bumbertyr) #17

Spawn Shield is a needed mechanic, even now people can explosive lock the spawn, i cant even imagine how bad it’d be without the spawn shield to give you that small chance of getting out.

(INF3RN0) #18

[quote=“The99thProblem;7974”]Guys the shield literally works for approximately 1 second. When the invincible player shoots just one bullet, the invincibility-frame ends to ensure that it is not unbalanced.

And there is a bit of an indicator for invincibility: There is an orange shield above the head of the revived ally when they are in your cross hair.

The reason I feel this is necessary is cause when you are down and are resurrected, you need time to readjust to the situation. Also, when you are revived you don’t want to get gunned down or naded by a nade that was intended for someone else. This helps to prevent people camping someone who is being revived from farming kills.[/quote]

Yea I agree, but I think the frustration people are having comes from the feeling of wasting bullets on an invincible target. I don’t think it’s really all that bad myself though I’m used to it from ET/QW, but I might be persuaded to allow for the shield to have a max damage absorption cap so that dealing enough continuous damage will drop the shield faster.

(Shackahn) #19

I dont see what the problem is as long as people are aware of it and its clearly explained as a game mechanic. What the 99th says is completely true, when you are revived you need a second or two to readjust to the situation. A medic should be rewarded for performing their role, as I said above if Medics were completely vulnerable during a revive nobody would do it. Risk vs reward.

I dont think a shield fits in with the style of the game as it stands. I like the revive mechanic and its a core feature of Dorty Bomb. Its not unfair as long as you know it exsists and how it works. How you use that information to better your play is down to you as an individual.

(B_Montiel) #20

The thing is, it is very frustrating when you are in an intense fighting sequence to waste a good half of your magazine on somebody that will literally eat bullets. Sometimes you don’t have the time to notice what is exactly going on : you hide yourself to reload, come back and face a probably revived player near a medic. But there’s no indication at all that he’s under revive protection. So at least, a quite noticeable kneeling position would be welcome. In 1vsN situations, revive protection can be an awful sequence breaker.

Of course, reviving should be rewarding for medics. But I do think it also has to be used wisely. I really hate medics who are not giving a dare because they know they will have that unnoticeable bullet eater monster in front of them after a revive. Positioning is a strong part of the game, so it should be when you are playing medic intensively as well. Imo, when you are wearing paddles, there’s no reason you can benefit from extra cover from people you just revived. You should think of an escape plan / a good cover to be back and ready to fight.