Revive/Help Up Counts As Death.

(PixelTwitch) #21

[QUOTE=Anti;509544]We’ve discussed this several times at the office and we’re happy with how it is now.

We want kill and death totals to stack up evenly on each side where possible, so the act that gives a kill needs to cause a death. Having kills on gib feels very bad though, the idea that the killer would send somebody to the ground as they would in any other FPS and not get the kill seems really unrewarding, so incapping somebody remains a kill and everything else is based off of that.[/QUOTE]

I said from the start that the person that sent the person to the ground WOULD get a kill…
Just the person sent to the ground would only get a death if they are not revived…

Look at Battlefield, Left 4 Dead, Planetside 2…

I mean apart from ET/ETQW can you point to any other games that do it this way?

(potty200) #22

Pixel, I read what you put and remember quite a few discussions. You are honestly just against ET and QW for some reason and if someone disagrees with one of your ideas/suggestions it is because they are “wanting an ET remake” or “Living in the past” That does not cut the mustard for me.

The argument for not wanting to unbalance KD ratio on teams is simple… You are trying to be too cleaver. Gamers, particularly FPS gamers, want to frag and see scores. If scores do NOT add up in their first few games, they will question the game and over complicating things as simple as kills and deaths could put simple minded people off.If I want a game where I want to use my brain to play i’d be playing starcraft. I don’t want to think, I want to enjoy myself and shoot enemies.*

*Meaning, I am not wanting an ET remake
*I am also not stuck in the past

(Glottis-3D) #23

wanting the game to be like ET/ETQW is not the same as wanting the game to be as awesome as ET/ETQW definitely were.
these are different things. and very few guys outside of ET/ETQW actually get the difference.

(PixelTwitch) #24

[QUOTE=potty200;509599]Pixel, I read what you put and remember quite a few discussions. You are honestly just against ET and QW for some reason and if someone disagrees with one of your ideas/suggestions it is because they are “wanting an ET remake” or “Living in the past” That does not cut the mustard for me.

The argument for not wanting to unbalance KD ratio on teams is simple… You are trying to be too cleaver. Gamers, particularly FPS gamers, want to frag and see scores. If scores do NOT add up in their first few games, they will question the game and over complicating things as simple as kills and deaths could put simple minded people off.If I want a game where I want to use my brain to play i’d be playing starcraft. I don’t want to think, I want to enjoy myself and shoot enemies.*

*Meaning, I am not wanting an ET remake
*I am also not stuck in the past[/QUOTE]

not at all…
Most recent games with revive mechanics do not count a death if you was revived.
Funny how people are so quick to ignore the fact that streaks continue when it says “kill 25 people in 1 life”.
I have no issue with ET/ETQW, if I did do you really think I would be so into this game?
What I have an issue with the people that respond to any post with nothing more complex then “ET did it” “Remember ET”.
And the people that defend the “ET did it” comments but then trash anyone that says “CoD did it” or “BF did it” or “Quake did it”…
Are massive hypocrites…

AGAIN!, all I am saying is I believe that not stacking kills on revives will reduce frustration and slightly increase attacker win rate.

(spookify) #25

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;509605]not at all…
Most recent games with revive mechanics do not count a death if you was revived.
Funny how people are so quick to ignore the fact that streaks continue when it says “kill 25 people in 1 life”.
I have no issue with ET/ETQW, if I did do you really think I would be so into this game?
What I have an issue with the people that respond to any post with nothing more complex then “ET did it” “Remember ET”.
And the people that defend the “ET did it” comments but then trash anyone that says “CoD did it” or “BF did it” or “Quake did it”…
Are massive hypocrites…

AGAIN!, all I am saying is I believe that not stacking kills on revives will reduce frustration and slightly increase attacker win rate.[/QUOTE]

Add Prone!!!

ET did it
COD did it
BF did it

Most other games have it…

(PixelTwitch) #26

[QUOTE=spookify;509608]Add Prone!!!

ET did it
COD did it
BF did it

Most other games have it…[/QUOTE]

Hahaha, I just imagined Rhino prone with his minigun and that made me smile! lol

(montheponies) #27

RTCW :stuck_out_tongue:

10chars

(Sun_Sheng) #28

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;509605]
Funny how people are so quick to ignore the fact that streaks continue when it says “kill 25 people in 1 life”…[/QUOTE]
Well, I was going to mention it but I was on the phone and couldn’t be bothered typing more. But I can see it being a problem when nabje’s are comparing their stats and someone says “I’ve got 27 Godlike’s!!!11one” and somebody else is crying because they only have 15 but tapped out a bit more often :rolleyes:

(INF3RN0) #29

Mehhhh. Let’s just close this one.

(Leki) #30

I agree with PixelTwitch.

Most people care about KDR, so when this game goes live and a flood of new players come into it I am guessing most will prefer the way games like battlefield does it.

Battlefield did have some time when it was like dirtybomb currently is and most people didn’t like it and so DICE changed it, And i know for a fact it helped with teamwork and people going for objectives more as the people i play with on teamspeak stopped bitching about getting “another death” or saying to stop reviving them as it is hurting there stats etc.

If you want the totals to add up just change K/D to I/D (incaps/deaths) …that way you show how many times you incapacitated someone but only show how many times you really died :slight_smile:

(PixelTwitch) #31

Actually witnessing the way gameplay changed in Battlefield after a simple change to how you display data is why this thread exists.
I hate to admit it but I started noticing myself getting into the bad habit of letting someone help me up but then cancelling out last second. I was also finding myself getting very frustrated over the last few days (big number of new/old players have jumped on recently) with the 30hp revives and no med packs.

However, my main concern is how my frustration and bad habits are effecting other people…
I know how frustrating it can be to go and revive someone for them to gib at the last second or be picking someone up to 95% (4secs) for them just to respawn.

This is honestly nothing to do with it being ET or Battlefield…
Just what I believe will encourage less frustration and more teamplay in public.

(Humate) #32

It only encourages ineffective and time inefficient team-work merely to stat whore.
If revive trains are annoying, you can bet you will see more of them when deaths dont count on revive.

(PixelTwitch) #33

[QUOTE=Humate;509633]It only encourages ineffective and time inefficient team-work merely to stat whore.
If revive trains are annoying, you can bet you will see more of them when deaths dont count on revive.[/QUOTE]

My argument is it would encourage the complete reverse of what you are saying…
Right now, people are stats whoring by gibbing out just at they are about to be revived (putting medic at risk).

My issue with the revive train is not going against it but being in it right now…
This is most noticeable on the first objective in train yard and the first objective in underground.
Sure we complete the objective and are grateful for the revives but going from a 4/0 to a 5/7 is not fun.
especially when its due to 30hp revives and multiple enemies spamming towards the objective.
Sure… It works… Personally however, I find it neither fun, rewarding or accurate when it comes to stats.

What is so wrong with wanting to remove the frustration from the revive (both for medics and downed players) and make stats more accurate to the storyline that has just played out on any given objective/map?

Now you have touched on one point that I really should address (kinda)…
“If revive trains are annoying, you can bet you will see more of them when deaths dont count on revive.”

While the revive train is not part of my motivations for wanting the change there is a possibility it could increase…
I am trying to word this so not to sound overlay negative but I am struggling…
I suppose the question is do we want [A] - a game that requires/encourages lots of respawns by overall punishing a revived player or [B] - do we want a more aggressive game that is more accurate stats wise and less punishing death wise?

Personally, if they where to leave the kill count system as it is I would love them to add an “Accept Revive” button that allows you to wait up to 3 seconds before standing up. That way I have the chance to wait for a reload, decide if its worth it or wait till the hp regen starts. That way you have more control, more depth and less frustration but you can keep the numbers at they are yet still reduce certain peoples frustrations…

(Humate) #34

The frustration of dying when rev diving, isnt predicated on stats. Its related to players not understanding what their role is in the incapped state, and medics who dont want to clear the area prior to the revive, because of their lack of combat skill.
What I’m talking about is a completely different thing. I’m saying that stat whores will have a reason to play stacked medic team compositions that will be destined to lose due to the nature of how medic trains work.

(Sun_Sheng) #35

Just to throw two more things into the discussion as I don’t have time for a full post:

  1. I checked last night on a few games I played and every time I remembered to check on a revive I gave, they were getting 70hp or more

  2. and a personal annoyance … /kill laways seems to count as a death for me and a kill for someone else when all i’ve done is made a tactical decision or given up waiting for ammo. That should also probably be looked at, although I can see the cause that might give to the kdr whores who potentially get denied a kill in the middle of a firefight

(Sun_Sheng) #36

Not personally. For me it’s usually a decision based on it being my role to risk my arse, and also it being better for the team if I can get 2 or 3 revives in at the cost of 1 of me.

(Kl3ppy) #37

Yes, you can charge the Defi up to 100% Health (not sure if the maximum health is 100% or 100hp, maybe someone can tell if a full charged defi revives rhino with 100% health). So when a medic just rushes to you and doesn’t charge the defi, you will get about 30 (?) hp. So the low amount of hp after revive is only caused by medics who don’t know that they can charge the defi.

(Humate) #38

No I’m saying that medics that only revive first and shoot second, do so to nail the revive as a means to play around their limitations and still ensure they are an asset to the team.

Players in the incapped state, may expect a medic to deal with the threat first prior to reviving them and then tap out when they dont. Conversely a medic may expect the incapped player to only be in the incapped state if there are no threats nearby. Its this misunderstanding that causes the frustration.

(stealth6) #39

What would be wrong about not counting a kill until the enemy is gibbed? Until that time he is incapped, not dead so why count it? That would motivate players to gib & not count a death until you are gibbed.

I agree with Pixel that what BF did was an improvement. It stimulates K: D whores to at least do a little teamplay and not go completely lone wolf & at the same time positively effects the K: D of players who do the objective, but act as cannonfodder.

At the same time I agree that K: D should not be on the scoreboard that you see when you press TAB. It’s too confronting and you’re forced to look at it when you just want to see if your friend joined the server or not. This doesn’t mean that it can’t be shown on another optional UI overlay on a different button.

(BomBaKlaK) #40

A frag is a frag ! BF did it wrong !