Requests For Competition Tweaks


(Anti) #121

A lot of things like game TV, class/weapon limit cvars etc don’t come as standard with games because they tend to take a lot of time to create and yet are used by a minority. As much as us competition gamers like to think it (and I’m one of you!) we’re not actually that large a number of people, we’re just quite loud so we think we are :slight_smile:

I think the reason Splash Damage and a few other devs have tried to help with comp mods and support before is because we like the idea of comp gaming, we’ve played it ourselves and we’d like to see it grow but the commercial benefits (at present at least) are pretty minimal. Think about it, how many FPS games have you played where the devs actually did something specifically aimed at comp gaming that wasn’t already there as part of the core game or dev tools? There really aren’t many.

Reading through this thread what interests me is the suggestions that we comp gamers always come up with for things we want:

  • Good hit reg (this is just a requirement of a good FPS, not comp specific)
  • Demos/video support
  • Class/Weapon Limits
  • Customizable HUDs
  • TV client
  • No vehicles
  • Fast paced

Aside from pacing (which is almost impossible to please everybody on, for every comp gamer who likes ET/Q3 speed there is one who likes CoD/CS) every other request is pretty much a supporting feature request and not gameplay. We’re after the tools to support MP gaming so we can make it what we want, we’re not asking for a specific type of gameplay, that seems a little strange to me because the dev could supply all of those features from day one and yet you might still not like the game itself and may think it’s rubbish for comp play. In fact the more of those features we give you so you can tweek the game to suit what you want the greater the chances of it failing for clans because everybody will be making their own ‘mod’ and the community will be split. Just because you have them at day one doesn’t mean the comp game will emerge straight away, who leads the community in picking the rules if not the devs? Top clans? In the early days of ETQW a lot of players turned away from the early clan scene because a few top clans were driving the rule set away from what they wanted.

I think what competition gamers really want is a game with these supporting features but that ships with a core gameplay experience that is fun in both competition and pubs without many changes being needed at all. This way the ‘pub’ community is big which feeds into the comp community and the game rules of that community are easily found and agreed upon because it won’t stray far from the base game. The best competition suggestions would probably be gameplay ones rather than feature ones, things like:

  • Fast fluid movement
  • Frequent opportunity for 1-v-1 dueling
  • Memorable kills (funny rag doll, humiliating weapons)
  • Key moments (full team wipes, “aces”, “clutch” rounds, flag returns, killing sprees, headshots, melee kills, power-up pickups)

These are what people remember and love in the best MP comp games that have been released, these are the games the big communities form around. It’s only after they’ve formed that they start to demand the supporting features that are normally listed and without these things the game won’t last long.

That’s my opinion on this whole debate anyway :slight_smile:


(deadlights) #122

Hi I am a comp gamer and I am scared to post here… :smiley:


(dommafia) #123

[QUOTE=Anti;197424]A lot of things like game TV, class/weapon limit cvars etc don’t come as standard with games because they tend to take a lot of time to create and yet are used by a minority. As much as us competition gamers like to think it (and I’m one of you!) we’re not actually that large a number of people, we’re just quite loud so we think we are :slight_smile:

I think the reason Splash Damage and a few other devs have tried to help with comp mods and support before is because we like the idea of comp gaming, we’ve played it ourselves and we’d like to see it grow but the commercial benefits (at present at least) are pretty minimal. Think about it, how many FPS games have you played where the devs actually did something specifically aimed at comp gaming that wasn’t already there as part of the core game or dev tools? There really aren’t many.

Reading through this thread what interests me is the suggestions that we comp gamers always come up with for things we want:

  • Good hit reg (this is just a requirement of a good FPS, not comp specific)
  • Demos/video support
  • Class/Weapon Limits
  • Customizable HUDs
  • TV client
  • No vehicles
  • Fast paced

Aside from pacing (which is almost impossible to please everybody on, for every comp gamer who likes ET/Q3 speed there is one who likes CoD/CS) every other request is pretty much a supporting feature request and not gameplay. We’re after the tools to support MP gaming so we can make it what we want, we’re not asking for a specific type of gameplay, that seems a little strange to me because the dev could supply all of those features from day one and yet you might still not like the game itself and may think it’s rubbish for comp play. In fact the more of those features we give you so you can tweek the game to suit what you want the greater the chances of it failing for clans because everybody will be making their own ‘mod’ and the community will be split. Just because you have them at day one doesn’t mean the comp game will emerge straight away, who leads the community in picking the rules if not the devs? Top clans? In the early days of ETQW a lot of players turned away from the early clan scene because a few top clans were driving the rule set away from what they wanted.

I think what competition gamers really want is a game with these supporting features but that ships with a core gameplay experience that is fun in both competition and pubs without many changes being needed at all. This way the ‘pub’ community is big which feeds into the comp community and the game rules of that community are easily found and agreed upon because it won’t stray far from the base game. The best competition suggestions would probably be gameplay ones rather than feature ones, things like:

  • Fast fluid movement
  • Frequent opportunity for 1-v-1 dueling
  • Memorable kills (funny rag doll, humiliating weapons)
  • Key moments (full team wipes, “aces”, “clutch” rounds, flag returns, killing sprees, headshots, melee kills, power-up pickups)

These are what people remember and love in the best MP comp games that have been released, these are the games the big communities form around. It’s only after they’ve formed that they start to demand the supporting features that are normally listed and without these things the game won’t last long.

That’s my opinion on this whole debate anyway :)[/QUOTE]

Couldn’t have said it better myself.

Hollywood has always been the most sensible of our kind, glad he posted here as he stays away from the flames and concentrates on constructive criticism. I agree with most of what he wrote here. Bezzy has a point on allowing too much change possibly being counterproductive but I think that weapon restrictions (for example, one big ****ing gun per side) should be available from the start for comp play. brinktv and other more complicated things we would appreciate but I think most comp players aren’t going to go bat shit crazy if it comes after release (not 7 months though plz!).

Having some “basic” comp setting controls would be much appreciated and help make a great start for the game for comp players. Spam limiting cvars, weapons restriction cvars, timeout system, team locking, spectator lock. SD already knows how to implement these and I hope they aren’t too time consuming to include for release.

I still dont get why there’s any argument at all from casual and comp players. If you don’t play in matches then these things are not going to affect you. If you are a comp player and want to pub then you adjust to the pub play and not try to impose comp play on pub play. Let’s all grab a beer and watch District 9 eh?


(deadlights) #124

Damn good movie, and I agree with Dom and Anti.


(GlobalWar) #125

Wow this is a huge topic and I read it all!!! I just need to ventilate my opinion also because my ego forces me to :slight_smile:
I was also on the first batch of ET:QW beta dudes and did the first ever cup of Quake Wars with the QuakeWarsLeague during the beta. I followed all the discussions of the competetive scene and fought for survival of vehicles in the Quake Wars competition, had long conversations with Wils to fight for a good competion mod in Quake Wars. In my opinion all the wishes from the competive community did not help the development of Quake Wars. An initial great design was wasted by rules that just didn’t fit the thought behind Quake Wars (it still pisses me off) :slight_smile:
I believe that Splash Damage is more then capable of delivering a great game for both the casual gamer and the clan gamer that wants wars. I also believe that with Bethesda in charge instead of Activision we will get a better game then ET:QW could have been.
I have seen the demo and I feel it has everything to become the next best game. But the competetive community MUST remember they are the minority here. If SD creates this game for them will be bankrupt very soon (nightmare scenario).

I think having Rahdo as Creative Director who actualy is in a position to openly discuss things here on the forums is a great thing!!


(Sssaap) #126

With Bethesda as money machine there’s little chance that they’ll run out of money any time:)
And at least what I heared from the comp. games(at least most of ‘us’ - yes I also belong to them:P) realised that this game is mostly being made to appeal to the masses rather than being a pure hardcore game. All ‘we’ want is not that the core of the game is being made for hardcore gamers more that it can be heavily adapted (with settings rather than mods, so it would not take ages to adjust the game to the needs of the comp. community). And we’re glad about Rahdo trying to just do us this favor:)


(Rahdo) #127

There’s no doubt in my mind that there’s a lot of upside, in the short term, in catering to the more casual market (hell, I consider myself one of them :slight_smile: ). But I believe equally strongly that its important for the long term health of the game to make systems that’re attractive for competitive play too. I really don’t want Brink to be a game that, 2 or 3 years after it’s shipped, no one is playing…


(tokamak) #128

Competition also gives the casual pubber something to fantasise about, a well oiled competition play raises the bar for everyone.


(DarkangelUK) #129

Yeah, that’s exactly how it won’t work.


(Nail) #130

casual gamers fantasize about cars, girls/boys, clothes, shoes, money, gadgets etc. never about competition gaming. The ones fantasizing about comp gaming are the kids with their W:ET 2.55 “clans” or the kids who have a ET:QW demo “clan”


(Rahdo) #131

I look at it like this:

[ul]
[li]casual player starts playing.
[/li][li]starts leveling up.
[/li][li]works his way through both campaigns.
[/li][li]continues playing to level up more and get new abilities to get new gameplay experiences.
[/li][li]at some point jumps online in standard matches (if he hasn’t already).
[/li][li]eventually, after many many happy hours and becoming quite proficient in the game, starts wondering what’s the hubbub about these ‘hardcore matches’.
[/li][li]takes a peek and says “yow! that’s a whole 'nother level of challenging”
[/li][li]either retreats to the safety and comfort of standadr matches, which is totally fine
[/li][li]or now views the competetive scene as a new mountain to climb, and is ready to try
[/li][/ul]

or something like that. a man can dream, can’t he? :smiley:


(GlobalWar) #132

In my opinion it’s not the competitive scene that keeps a game alive. Most casual gamers (with the money to buy games) are scared for this competitve scene anyway.

The best to keep a game alive is fresh new content and bug fixes. As long as there are new maps released or other things like awesome mods that give you a slightly new game experience on the game you love you stick to that game.

So I hope we get a lot of DLC for Brink…And please start with the female models (speaking about dreams)!!

Thx :slight_smile:


(madness) #133

[QUOTE=GlobalWar;197777]

So I hope we get a lot of DLC for Brink…And please start with the female models (speaking about dreams)!!

Thx :)[/QUOTE]

Don’t need to wait for DLC for that…


(Rahdo) #134

That helps too, no doubt! :slight_smile:


(aimology) #135

You make no sense. Thats completely stupid. 2.55 clans or demo clans? Most people who want “comp” stuff have played more then 1 game at a higher level. Usually its a series of games. Quake series, Cod series, 1.6 maybe CS:S or all the et, qw, rtcw. Maybe all of them like myself.

Rahdo you said it perfect. weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee


(Nail) #136

I make perfect sense. it’s not stupid at all, we’re talking about CASUAL GAMERS, Rahdo is correct, that’s where comp gamers come from, the occasional casual gamer that develops into a comp gamer. maybe 2% of the casual gamers. Casual gamers could care less about the competition scene let alone “fantasize” about it.
Get over yourself, in the grand scheme of things you’re an insignificant speck.

I was commenting on “Competition also gives the casual pubber something to fantasize about” and I’m entirely correct, “wannabes” fantasize, and never get there. Just like casual gamers fantasize about the Ferrari they’ll never own.

Let’s face it, competition doesn’t mean game longevity, added content does

Question you have to ask yourself, “Does it feed the beagles”


(aimology) #137

[QUOTE=Nail;197806]I make perfect sense. it’s not stupid at all, we’re talking about CASUAL GAMERS, Rahdo is correct, that’s where comp gamers come from, the occasional casual gamer that develops into a comp gamer. maybe 2% of the casual gamers. Casual gamers could care less about the competition scene let alone “fantasize” about it.
Get over yourself, in the grand scheme of things you’re an insignificant speck.

I was commenting on “Competition also gives the casual pubber something to fantasise about” and I’m entirely correct, “wannabes” fantasize, and never get there. Just like casual gamers fantasize about the Ferrari they’ll never own.

Let’s face it, competition doesn’t add to game longevity, added content does[/QUOTE]

Spell check. Wear a football helmet before leaving your house. Any more damage could be fatal. ( right click the word underlined in red ) for future reference. Good night.

O ( didnt know 1.6 ) has had alot of “added” content ( for quite some time). Interesting theory you have… Also didnt know “call of duty” 4 or 2 or 1 had alot of " added " content. odd, those games last quite some time… along with their “newer” release.


(Nail) #138

wear a flak jacket before you leave your house, your attitude leaves a lot to be desired

what’s this 1.6 you refer to, not a game I play and cry for doody isn’t a series anyone I know is interested in, except wannabe “heros” and other children who can’t play grownup games


(digibob) #139

Less bickering please you two.


(SockDog) #140

Just a few of thoughts:

  1. Isn’t a big issue with competitive game modes that the actual requirements are fairly dynamic until the community come to a consensus? Perhaps a framework for competitive mini-mods would be a better investment rather than adding rules and features which may be pointless.

  2. The general attitude of casual and clanners is pretty embarrassing (both sides have plenty of issues and a-holes). I’d like to see some mutual respect come back to gaming, locking out douche bags from VOIP isn’t the solution. I totally maintain that we need to have a persistent peer based conduct voting system. That way if someone wants to be an idiot or a clan/group feel entitled to take over a server (examples) then there is at least some repercussions. Let server admins then filter these players off of their servers.

  3. Spectating, broadcasting, demos, machinima, editing etc great advertising tools.

  4. I like to play with a config file for a while as much as the next man but a menu system that allows immediate feedback and configurability would be a massive breakthrough. I mentioned previously but will repeat. Allowing default configurations for not only increased FPS but also increased visibility may address a huge proportion of gfx tweakers out there.