Reconsider Female Characters!

(Szakalot) #261

[QUOTE=Profane;206265]
There is likely a leaning for young boys to be more physical in their disagreements and girls to be more socially/emotionally cruel, but it’s emphasized by culture. Both genders are taught not to hit, but a girl is also told it’s unnatural and unseemly to resort to physical violence. Either way, women like violence about as much as men. How else do you explain top-earning flicks that have significant amounts of violence, explosions, gunfights, etc? [/quote]

‘naturally’ males are more inclined to violence due to a higher level of testosterone. As you put it well, it is emphasized by culture, but it is not the only thing there is there. If it was only culture dependant, you would expect to find numerous cultures with matriarchal hierarchy. And for some reason, there are only a handfew of them.

[Nevermind that if we used your argument, then women are, by their nature, better suited to diplomacy, government policy, etc. Which means, gtfo out of the Senate, boys. You’re clearly biologically unsuited for tasks requiring higher socialization skills and a sense of cooperation between factions for the betterment of all.

Except that too much compromise is also not good. You NEED competition as well.
Is the culture influencing the behaviour, or is the behaviour inherently prescripted?
Both.
If Females were significantly more suited for diplomacy etc. you would expect to find more examples of such diplomats etc. in the history.
And it is not to say that they are not suited, as human consciousness expanded a lot lately, it is to say that on a primitive, ‘organic’ level - they are not.

But a similar discussion will likely arise when, one day, males will demand the right to be able to give birth. On a primitive level no male is suited for that task:)
With enough bio-enginering though, it could be possible;)

That’s the point. You see it as a sacrifice of something you want, instead of something that should automatically be considered part of game customization. And that’s where I have a problem.

It is a sacrifice because it hurts the sales (worse gameplay - a minus for majority, but more enjoyable experience for females - a minority)
It should not. I do believe everyone can agree with that.

But it will.

(signofzeta) #262

[QUOTE=Szakalot;206387]

But a similar discussion will likely arise when, one day, males will demand the right to be able to give birth. On a primitive level no male is suited for that task:)
With enough bio-enginering though, it could be possible;)

But it will.[/QUOTE]

It’s a shame that all that money would go to waste because we sissy males don’t want to give birth. Then again, wouldn’t males be defined as females if males were to give birth? Where’d you think sex reassignment comes from?

(Szakalot) #263

to be able to give birth you need some hormones, womb and the umbilical cord. Well, it IS a little more complicated then that, but not as much as people think. Growing an embryon in a lab tube… let us just say there is no basic reason as to why it would NOT be possible.

At that level of technology, the male/female differences would go on into a different dimension. And there are a lot of other subtle differences you could base the division on.

Besides, giving birth is… manual; it doesnt have much to do with the way the embryon comes into being in the first place.

(signofzeta) #264

[QUOTE=Szakalot;206422]to be able to give birth you need some hormones, womb and the umbilical cord. Well, it IS a little more complicated then that, but not as much as people think. Growing an embryon in a lab tube… let us just say there is no basic reason as to why it would NOT be possible.

At that level of technology, the male/female differences would go on into a different dimension. And there are a lot of other subtle differences you could base the division on.

Besides, giving birth is… manual; it doesnt have much to do with the way the embryon comes into being in the first place.[/QUOTE]

Even if a male magically is able to give birth, by definition, the male would have become a female. If a male were to keep his balls, and have a womb and all that stuff, then, I don’t know, my brain just exploded. Then there are hermaphrodites.

(Profane) #265

Segregated in the original meaning of the word, mate. The word’s been around for some 500 years or so. facepalms

(Profane) #266

[QUOTE=Exedore;206270]Pretty much why I prefer them in all cases, yeah I guess it’s too simple.

And we hit Nature vs Nurture, whoo![/QUOTE]

Hey, I was happy with my marketing point. But no one seized on that. Essentially, we’re still arguing over whether or not chicks play video games.

But okay, enough with nature vs. nurture. How about some real data on how many female gamers are out there?

I also have some theories on why Nintendo’s Wii has captured large numbers of female gamers. It’s not just that casual gamers tend to be female and the Wii has a ton of casual games. It’s also marketing. When you look at Nintendo commercials, they show both genders playing and enjoying the game equally. They’ve marketed to women…and Oh My Gawd, they didn’t use pink!

Example of how not to appeal to female gamers (and funny enough, they gripe about the same thing I do, not even a single ‘token’ female playable character): http://www.lesbiangamers.com/halo-odst-one-discourse-into-sexism-and-tolerance-veronica-dare-halo-character.html <—pulled that off of ThumbBandits.com; I find it pretty amusing that the same comments that get lobbed at chick gamers just about every day, are the same comments that ended up in a Bungie game. Makes you wonder which is the cause and the effect, cuz dirty comments towards chicks have been standard in games forever. Except in Earthworm Jim, maybe. Yay for Earthworm Jim’s return!

http://www.techshout.com/gaming/2009/22/female-players-appear-to-leave-men-behind-in-virtual-gaming-world/ <–this supports my view that women see gaming as a man thing (thanks to socialization); I liked the last line about self-reported data.

http://www.edge-online.com/news/npd-44-per-cent-of-current-gen-console-users-are-female <—44% of console owners are chicks, time to market a little better. They’re already stuck with the hardware

http://exophase.com/pc/bbc-40-percent-of-mmorpg-gamers-are-female-9552.htm <–not surprising, but I’m ignoring the bisexual thing.

http://www.myps3.com.au/NewsDetail.aspx?id=2043 <—4% female rise in “extreme” gamers

Most of what I’ve come across puts female gamers (of non-card games) at 25%-35%, more for rpgs, mmos and Wii games. Still a minority, but once you put those figures up against the number of playable female characters in games, ones whose tits aren’t bursting out of their shirts, and there’s a considerable skew. Yet chicks are still playing “manly” games despite strong pressures not to.

For once, Rockstar comes off looking almost egalitarian. Their female mods are very normal looking right up until you get the level 10 outfit - a chick in lingerie.

I’d like to find data on specific games (like Uncharted, or even Fallout 3) and on the Japanese market. But anyway. Female gamers are more likely to be casual gamers rather than hardcore (this can mean in preference of games, and also in how much time they spend playing - the latter only matters to studios if the customer pays for server fees), the market is growing (especially if you include Wii-related growth), and what little bit of info I could find basically said the same thing I’ve thought all along: chicks with giant knockers and not much in the way of clothes don’t make women think, “Oh! That game is totally for me.” Nor does pink, fyi.

So yeah, I’m sticking to the idea that marketing games to women and preventing the excess testosterone from invading every portion of a game (like the Halo:ODST example - which was also extremely unrealistic in the military context) is probably helpful. So I stand by my boycott in the interest of better games for the future.

So yeah, if chicks make up about a third of the market, where the HELL is my character mod?! :smiley: [Rhetorical question.]

(Profane) #267

…Didn’t Sims 3 let the men magically have babies? Or was that a very amusing glitch?

I know one of the older Sims games had aliens impregnating guys (though I never played it myself). Congratulations, the Sims has created gender equality. Lmmfao.

(tokamak) #268

What a strange comparisson, there are far less female chefs and famous clothing designers than male ones.

But let’s keep it on the roles in this game, how many females are fighting at the front right now? Exactly.

(.Chris.) #269

Men are chefs, women are cooks.

(Nail) #270

I’m a man, I’m a cook not a chef, chefs require years of formal training.

btw, in 9 years of combat in Iraq and Afghanistan, 33 women have died and 240+ have been injured in combat

(tokamak) #271

Compared to the male equivalent of…?

(Stroggafier) #272

Whether your motto is “Have Cleavage, Will Slaughter” or “Have Balls, Will Slaughter” we should not confuse sexy with sexist.

They may wear pink, or steel grey, and they may have bulging cleavage or balls. They also may be subordinate, chest thumping, or neanderthal. That’s a discussion about what’s sexy (attractive or interesting).

If there is prejudice, or stereotyping of roles based on sex, that’s sexist (discriminatory).

In the context of a future Eutopia gone awry, it would seem sexist not to have female antagonists. But, it would be unfortunate if the avatars were not sexy.

(.Chris.) #273

Yeah, it was a joke…

(Profane) #274

[QUOTE=Stroggafier;206497]Whether your motto is “Have Cleavage, Will Slaughter” or “Have Balls, Will Slaughter” we should not confuse sexy with sexist.

They may wear pink, or steel grey, and they may have bulging cleavage or balls. They also may be subordinate, chest thumping, or neanderthal. That’s a discussion about what’s sexy (attractive or interesting).

If there is prejudice, or stereotyping of roles based on sex, that’s sexist (discriminatory).

In the context of a future Eutopia gone awry, it would seem sexist not to have female antagonists. But, it would be unfortunate if the avatars were not sexy.[/QUOTE]

Eh, I could argue that the requirement for sexy is sexist. Especially when it makes no sense in the context (like all these half-naked chicks running around getting shot at while their male counterparts are loaded down with armor). But if a studio is willing to make the guys just as sexy and have them bare just as much skin, I’m down! Always wanted to prance about on screen as a half-naked, muscley guy. Chicks watch naked dudes, too, y’know. :smiley:

But if just the female avatars are “sexy,” then it is sexism. Also called “the male gaze.” Ie, a female avatar can’t be considered a valid or valued edition to a game unless she is considered sexy by (mostly male) players. It basically puts all the value of a character, not on good storytelling and characterization, but on whether or not said character is “hot.” Bit like frat houses and who they allow through the front door at a party. Same can be said of NPC females. I still find it hilarious that Fallout 3 gave chick NPCs mustaches.

(Szakalot) #275

If to be Sexy something needs to be sexist…

well well now.

Let us discuss the definitions, see if we disagree there.

On a simple basis:
Sexy - noticing a gender difference and liking what you see
Sexist- noticing a gender difference and disliking what you see, and not because it is a gender difference expressed in poor quality, but because IT IS a gender difference.
Its dislike by default.

You gave us a lot of interesting data.
But I do not see how it should convince SD that they MUST have female avatars. Show them where the money is. You can talk a lot about ideals, and no one will disgree, but this is business - its about the money.

It is as if you tried to show that McDonalds serves unhealthy food, and you decided to boycotte that. I don’t think anyone can disagree, but still, people go to McDonalds, because of other values, and McDonalds thrive because it does not live on ideals, but on money.

(BioSnark) #276

[quote=tokamak;206446]What a strange comparisson, there are far less female chefs and famous clothing designers than male ones.

But let’s keep it on the roles in this game, how many females are fighting at the front right now? Exactly. [/quote]
In your words ‘what a strange comparison’. I assume you know that’s a policy decision, yes?

In any case, you might draw a more relevant equivalency between law enforcement (even S.W.A.T.) and a fictional Ark Security although that would undermine your argument.

(tokamak) #277

Well by all means show me some figures and undermine my argument.

(BioSnark) #278

Honestly, I don’t see the point. The facts speak for themselves.

(tokamak) #279

Well show them.

(ThunderWank) #280

He’s calling you out broskie.
Now if we were on a play ground this is where the children would swarm and yell “FIGHT”.
But alas this is the internet, so to the gentleman whom tokamak is adressing it is either time to nut up or shut up.