Recon Feedback - v.17963


(Apoc) #1

As the title suggests, ill try to clearly display the pro’s and cons and things that in my opinion need changing in order to make the recon class a more viable/balanced role.

17963 specific feedback

This latest patch has been fantastic, especially for Recon;

[ul]
[li]Reduced/ Eliminated sway - Great change. Sway has its place in handicapping snipers on games with very slow moving targets and 1 shot kills for hitting basically anywhere on the body, but has no place in a fast paced game where the sniper only 1 shot kills with headshots, it was an unnecessary handicap to an already challenging area of the game. Ideally its removal should continue on to when moving also. [/li][li]Removal of hold breath - Comes with the above, but its removal has the benefit of simplifying the sniper a little, and making it more accessible as a weapon and more viable in general. It allows a more mobile sniper. [/li][li]Reduced view kick on getting hit - This is always a massive issue with snipers, they get nerfed in game by being seen first. In a game like dirty bomb where camping and hiding isnt very prevalent, and nor should it, and for that reason view kick isnt needed. The big issue with it is that its fine and feels like it should be in the game for most classes, who just feel a slight kick when hipfiring which just makes the fight feel more realistic and give feedback. But the sniper becomes un-usable if the view kick is too much, having a magnified scope, magnifies the kick and pretty much means regardless of how good you aim, if your getting shot, you cant hit your target. This is worsened by the fact that its not predictable like weapon recoil, since it is based off how often the enemy hits you, which you cannot predict. This ties in with a point for later that is making the class feel slightly underpowered. [/li][li]Increase in sniper damage - in my opinion this is always a good thing as long as it doesnt mean getting a 1 shot kill for chestshots, anything under that is fine in my opinion, a single shot bolt action rifle should be powerful. Especially with the speed that other weapons can kill with, having anything less would be unreasonable. [/li][li]Reduced “raise” and “lower” times for weapons - again great for all classes, but was really needed for the sniper. The slow swapping/raising of the sniper weapons was nerfing the class to a large degree. It mean that you essentially had one shot, or you died, now at least you have an opportunity to switch weapons after your first shot, which by no means gives you an advantage over the opponent, who will probably already have killed you due to killing speed, but does at least give you a chance if you havent already got a headshot, which is important otherwise the class can feel bad and not fun to play if you only get one shot before you die, whereas the enemy can run round shooting you in the feet and kill you before you can get a second shot off or swap weapons. [/li][/ul]


Things in the game that are nerfing recon inadvertently

[ul]
[li]Lack of falloff/Tightness of spread for all other weapons - This is a big problem, currently in game you can be killed from the other end of the map by an smg quicker than you can fire a second sniper bullet. The range and lack of falloff for all other weapons means really diminishes the snipers use, since its meant to be the class that excels over range, yet most of the current weapons (especially the Field ops AR, but all weapons to a lesser extent) can kill in similar time frames yet do not carry the penalty of being weaker close up. Essentially it becomes a choice of “do i pick Fops/Medic/Soldier which are very strong over range and up close, or do i pick the recon which is only very slightly better over range and much worse up close?” - easy decision for most. While sniping recently i have found that other players can effectively have a sniper battle with me and effectively counter snipe me from range with the Fops AR, this is because when both players are moving awkwardly/using cover well (as is natural in sniper wars), the field ops can just pre-fire on the snipers location, which means when the sniper chooses his moment their aim is already hit by the view kick making it very difficult to aim, and they lose a huge amount of health before they can even fire one shot. The field ops benefits from no loss of accuracy/damage over range and infinite ammo and can usually win before a second shot is fired due to the crazy damage even at range. [/li][li]Soldier backpack - Im pretty sure this is an issue for every class…even soldiers when fighting other soldiers…The huge backpack that hides the head and confuses where the body ends, on a class already with a weapon and health advantage. Essentially that one shot the sniper gets before he dies (if he misses) is made even more difficult with soldier fights by having no idea where the head is. I wont labour this point as i think its universally recognised as broken. [/li][li]Grenade strength - This recent increase combined with the recons quite low health has meant that grenades have become my number one source of deaths. They seem to fully kill you even if they are only “near” you, as opposed to just wounding you to a similar degree a sniper shot would, as i would expect. Grenades shouldnt just be a case of throwing into a room and it kills any recon in it, even if they threw it off target and poorly timed. [/li][/ul]

Areas where sniper has a chance of being slightly OP if changes are not made.

As it is, snipers need alot of work before they could be considered “balanced” with the other classes, however here are some issues that if the sniper was made more viable, may cause it to become OP;

[ul]
[li]Lack of obstacles/too much line of sight - Many maps have large open parts all the way through and basically mean that there are very few places on the map you cant get shot from. This is currently being exploited by every class, since people can crossfire from the other side of the map, and no one is safe at any point really. If snipers were made a bit more powerful, this may also make them op, since the maps currently allow you to shoot anyone from the other side of the map. As it is, this is balanced out by the fact that all the classes have super powerful weapons with no damage falloff over range, meaning they are just as good at picking people off miles away. Essentially maps need a more cover available. [/li][li]Sensor grenade - Legal wall hack is op, end of. It doesnt really help the sniper who has inferior weapons to everyone else, but for your team it makes pre-firing on enemies super easy, which nearly always means a won fight. Should really just show enemies up on the minimap. or have enemies locations pulse rather than permanently stay there. [/li][/ul]

And thats all i have for now, all opinions welcome.

:stroggtapir::armadillochase:


(pulley) #2

nice read apoc!

i am with you in all points except:

Reduced view kick on getting hit
i think this is only a problem because the other weapons are to Powerful over distance. You have to somehow be able to come up against a sniper at long range. Sure you shouldnt be able to kill him but just prevent you from being killed.


(Apoc) #3

[QUOTE=pulley;439210]nice read apoc!

i am with you in all points except:

Reduced view kick on getting hit
i think this is only a problem because the other weapons are to Powerful over distance. You have to somehow be able to come up against a sniper at long range. Sure you shouldnt be able to kill him but just prevent you from being killed.[/QUOTE]

Thanks!

Yea i know what you mean, im not for the kick to be removed, just reduced. See its fine for long range (if the weapons shooting snipers had damage falloff), but really when up close, which happens alot in this game, you want the kick to be enough to upset a long range magnified shot a bit, but not enough to make a close range scope shot miss completely. Not sure if i have articulated that well. Basically i just want it reduced, but not gone. When in mid - to close range, there should still be a chance for the sniper to fight back with a sniper rifle if they can pull off a great shot, i dont want it to be the case that if mid-close range and you get shot first you have nothing you can do with the rifle. Also i dont want to be misunderstood on this point, i know alot of people will say “sniper rifles should be useless at close - mid range”, i know where those people are coming from however i disagree, but i feel reduced kick is a viable compromise, makes it harder to pull off the already dificult shot in already dificult conditions, but does not make it impossible like a high view kick variable would do.


(BTMPL) #4

Good idea. Maybe make it pulse once each 2-3 sec and just mark that a person was at given place at given time. The class woulsn’t be shown and the marker would be stationary - so the spotted enemy could be in that area as well as a bit further / bit back. Now if you spot a Medic as Assault you can go for an easy kill - after the change you will know that someone is comming - but wait, maybe he spotted the sensor and backed a bit so to get you in his own trap?


(MrFunkyFunk) #5

Nice post.
I find the recon highly enjoyable with the recent improvements.

Things I still would like to see changed is a reduction in the scope zoom and of course the h-beat sensors.
I remember a lot of great ideas have been brought up in another, older, thread as the pulse system that would make it far less op than it currently is (too much of an advantage if they can’t find it to destroy it).


(Mustang) #6

Disagree that maps are too open (not enough cover), there are a few places that could use an extra hidey-hole, but generally speaking the current amount is fine.

However on a note relating to cover it feels like the first person eye-level and third person model head-level aren’t lined up closely enough whilst crouched, too many times have I been killed by headshots from someone on the same horizontal plane as me from a long distance away whilst I’ve been ducked behind cover for some seconds.


(Samurai.) #7

In regards to the recon my main issues right now, are:

  1. The sniper rifle can be a bit glitchy/clunky when trying to do quickscoping. First shot will work fine, but second time the timing gets messed up and the gun will unscope then fire even though you didn’t press it in this order - i think has to do with the reload sound/timing not being obvious - would like to see a bar (like in ETQW) that recharges quickly showing when the next shot is ready + clearer/accurate reload sounds for the next bullet.

  2. The recon currently does not contribute to objectives at all, i don’t really understand why the PDA objectives aren’t assigned to the recon class as it is basically “hacking” the objective. Therefore giving greater responsibility to the recon class and importance of playing this class to achieve progress in most maps.

  3. The default zoom level of the scope could do with being a bit more “zoomed out” as the maps are not huge, and this could provide easier access for players to use the sniper in closer quarters (which they would be moving into if the PDA objective’s were assigned to the recon class exclusively).


(Apoc) #8

[QUOTE=Samurai.;439299]In regards to the recon my main issues right now, are:

  1. The sniper rifle can be a bit glitchy/clunky when trying to do quickscoping. First shot will work fine, but second time the timing gets messed up and the gun will unscope then fire even though you didn’t press it in this order - i think has to do with the reload sound/timing not being obvious - would like to see a bar (like in ETQW) that recharges quickly showing when the next shot is ready + clearer/accurate reload sounds for the next bullet.

  2. The recon currently does not contribute to objectives at all, i don’t really understand why the PDA objectives aren’t assigned to the recon class as it is basically “hacking” the objective. Therefore giving greater responsibility to the recon class and importance of playing this class to achieve progress in most maps.

  3. The default zoom level of the scope could do with being a bit more “zoomed out” as the maps are not huge, and this could provide easier access for players to use the sniper in closer quarters (which they would be moving into if the PDA objective’s were assigned to the recon class exclusively).[/QUOTE]

Would agree with all of these, i was meant to add the zoom bit but forgot while writing it.


(zeroooo) #9

too high body hit dmg - 85% hp is too much


(Protekt1) #10

I disagree with removing sway while moving. Removing sway while standing still is fair to me. But lets not forget that its a weapon with the lowest possible ttk/htk. Its ROF isn’t bad either. So being able to strafe back and forth with no added challenge and still being capable of instantaneous kills… Even on body shots its giving a significant advantage to your teammates to finish him off or for you to whip out a machine pistol to gun him down.

I also disagree with removing view kick when being shot. Being capable of 1hk should have meaningful disadvantages and this should be one of them.

The grenades, sensor, and soldier backpack I agree with largely.


(Ashog) #11

Completely agree with Apoc’s post except of

I strongly disagree with this. Grenades are still too inefficient!! They have gotten better with the last patch but not enough. The damage falloff is still too high. I don’t understand why you say this because you must be perfectly familiar with how the ETQW grenades were. If you forgot, please join Nirvana this Sunday and refresh the memory.

In addition to what has been mentioned, I think it is a good thread to mention that the unscoped rifle firing in close combat is still impossible for Vassili. As some1 mentioned in other thread (jopjop methinks), the spread unscoped is so random that the bullet even hits the enemy when the xhair is very far away from a headbox. I hope this gets improved in the next patches.

And, as mentioned in other and this thread before, recon’s multifunctionality isn’t yet there but is coming, hopefully partially with 3rd eye cam (or was it meant for engie?). Still missing any yes/no news on possible future implementation of smokes and disguises. Would be nice to hear something on that from SD.


(INF3RN0) #12

Ashog at this point it seems like you won’t be satisfied until your nades and sniper body shots kill people every time :tongue:. I think nades are good as is and sniper body damage is much too high.


(Ashog) #13

Well, but at least the nades shouldn’t be nerfed again.

Regarding the sniper unscoped shots, I wonder if they changed smth after the patch - today was for some reason getting awesome unscoped kills. Rex can confirm :wink:


(iwound) #14

Lack of falloff/Tightness of spread for all other weapons - This is a big problem, currently in game you can be killed from the other end of the map by an smg quicker than you can fire a second sniper bullet. The range and lack of falloff for all other weapons means really diminishes the snipers use, since its meant to be the class that excels over range,

i agree with this.
i can snipe better with my deagle than a sniper rifle and that has no Ironsight.


(INF3RN0) #15

[QUOTE=Ashog;439585]Well, but at least the nades shouldn’t be nerfed again.

Regarding the sniper unscoped shots, I wonder if they changed smth after the patch - today was for some reason getting awesome unscoped kills. Rex can confirm ;)[/QUOTE]

I like the nades how they are now to be honest, but just don’t want to see them get even stronger. I never thought nades should be super easy to get kills with myself and should be mainly used to kill campers in choke points.

Sniper noscope does seem a bit more reliable now. I wish that player stances effected weapons more though. It would be cool if sniper no scope was more accurate as you slowed yourself down and crouched.


(Apoc) #16

[QUOTE=Ashog;439585]Well, but at least the nades shouldn’t be nerfed again.

Regarding the sniper unscoped shots, I wonder if they changed smth after the patch - today was for some reason getting awesome unscoped kills. Rex can confirm ;)[/QUOTE]

I personally despise unscoped sniper shots as they are in current games. The fact that merely not being scoped can mean that the bullet flies 45 degrees in a random direction is silly. However, i also agree that having accurate unscoped sniper shots would be pretty OP. To be honest, id be happier if the only time you could fire with a sniper was when in scope, and it was perfect accuracy at that point, but that wont happen.

I just cant stand having a sniper fight or evading well in close range against a sniper and then being one shot killed by a no scope when the enemy wasnt even aiming at me.

In regards to the nades, on reflection i dont mind getting hit by them, or them having a large AoE, but i dislike the lethality of them and how it can OHK without even being on target. I would prefer a larger AoE with less damage, to use as a weakener before entry into a room etc.


(INF3RN0) #17

What if something like standing perfectly still allowed you to noscope accurately up to 10ft or so. I personally see stances being a decent means of making the noscope more reliable by making your self less and less mobile to earn better accuracy.


(Breo) #18

I’m not sure about this because I’m afraid it will be used as a high damage shotgun. The recon can use their secondary for more reliability on close range, but the sniper doesn’t belong in the frontline it’s a class that backup their teammates, cover objects and spot enemies on a long range.


(Apoc) #19

That would actually be quite interesting. Although it doesnt make sense that it would only be accurate for 10ft, does it just change direction mid air after that? I guess no scope shots could suffer much more from falloff after a short range so they weren’t used over the scope (due to the tactical advantage of better fov without a scope).


(Apoc) #20

The recon shouldnt be limited by the game, it should be limited by skill. If you have the capability to be up close and hit a scoped headshot against a strafing target with only one shot (before you get gunned down), then power to you i say. Its a natural backline class, however high skill mastery of the class and weapons should open up additional doors to the player. Its never good to design a class that prohibits a particular playstyle, by all means discourage but skill should enable variance and extended viability.