Real concerns over Brinks Rank system

(H0RSE) #201

I said good player, not good teamplayer.
and this is one reason why K/D as a matchmaking stat doesn’t work. I don’t care how good you are in a 1v1 scenario, Brink is a team based game - SD is going out of there way to try and make it even more team based than prior games, and the “skill” of a player should reflect this. In order for K/D to more accurately predict your rank (system running in background) it would need to only calculate kills it thought as ‘useful.’ So if you go 40-10, but only 10 of those kills actually helped your team, that’s what it uses, and a system like that could never be flawless.

Besides, I gurantee you that if I got 4 players from the 4 best teams in the world to merc and create a merc team that they would still own a team of average shooters who have played together for a year because they would simply out shoot them.

Let’s see, 4 players from the best 4 team in the world, in charge of forming a team solely based around shooting skill vs a team of randoms who have played together for a year…yea, sounds like a fair experiment.

(Jamieson) #202

It is a fair experiment, it proves that no matter how good your teamwork is if you come up against opposition who simply out gun you then you wont win, it prooves my point perfectly.
I never said a bunch of randoms I said a team who had played together for a year, in comp terms thats a decent amount of time considering a comp team scrims about 5 times a week, possibly more.

So you have the 4 players from the 4 best teams in the world who have never played with each other, who in fact will play with each other for the first time against the team of 4 people who have played together for a year.

Maybe you don’t like it because you know it prooves I’am right.

(H0RSE) #203

I never said a bunch of randoms I said a team who had played together for a year, in comp terms thats a decent amount of time considering a comp team scrims about 5 times a week, possibly more.
you never mentioned any of this - I saw nothing about scrims 5 times a week, and comp teams, all you said was "a team of average shooters who have played together for a year."As far as I’m concerned, you’re saying, take these random people, put them together, and make them play together for a year.

why didn’t you just say, take 8 players from the best teams in the world - 4 of them are good at shooting, 4 of them are good at teamwork - pit them against each other - much simpler. Or if you wanna go that extra step, have the teamwork team play together for a year beforehand.

It is a fair experiment, it proves that no matter how good your teamwork is if you come up against opposition who simply out gun you then you wont win, it prooves my point perfectly.

lol, was this experiment actually carried out? Because if it wasn’t, it proves nothing. All you have is a proposed scenario on a forum post. And even if you were to carry this out, it would need to be conducted like a 100 times. You couldn’t just do 1 match and say, “this team is better.”

Maybe you don’t like it because you know it prooves I’am right.
I don’t like it because it’s stupid and flawed in so many ways.

(darthmob) #204

If one could turn a senseless discussion into motion you guys would be the basis of the first perpetuum mobile. :rolleyes:

(tokamak) #205
(Jamieson) #206

lol very funny tokamak i needed a laugh.

I think a more accurate depiction would be me and Apples hitting our heads against a brick wall because we can’t seem to get it through to Horse thick head.

(H0RSE) #207

I think a more accurate depiction would be me and Apples hitting our heads against a brick wall because we can’t seem to get it through to Horse thick head.
imagine that…having a different point of view on something - silly me.

(INF3RN0) #208

@ Tokomak

Vehicles are about the only tangible counter to shooting; I personally don’t consider them similar in anyway b/c they are OP (glad there won’t be any :D). Anything else is just player smarts and organization. Whenever you plan anything in an organized match, it is all focused on inflicting higher casualties on the opposite team. The more you kill the other team, the more momentum you gain as you press forward. You don’t “just kill them”, but you use everything else the game provides in order to kill them. Sometimes you can get an objective from med chaining the objective guy without firing a shot, but that RARELY happens. So it goes in the order of tactics<kills<objective. As to your philosophy that good shots don’t or shouldn’t determine win/skill, your right. BUT as you might be less inclined to acknowledge in this situation again, every other aspect of skill aside from aim is used to get kills. The effectiveness of a player to use such variables in the most efficient manner makes them a better killer than another. Player A can have poor aim, but good movement, and kill another player with the opposite abilities. In the end its all about killing though; gibbing, prioritizing targets, flanking, etc are all used to increase the chances of progress. The problem is that there are too many one-sided views about the importance of aim and teamwork. People just don’t seem to realize that yes aim is very important, but those guys that are kicking your ass are not only great shots, but also extremely smart and well organized players.

@ Others

It’s a pub. People can’t organize themselves or think as a group. The best shooters are going to pull and everyone else will tidy up the objectives. This is the only case that shooting is the most important because anything else is a lost cause. If you want to play the game like it was intended, opt for clan battles or competitive play.

NOTE: I had a demo somewhere of superior teamwork beating better shots, but I may have lost it during my previous HD crash.

(H0RSE) #209

If you want to play the game like it was intended, opt for clan battles or competitive play.

I don’t think it is “intended” to played a specific way, hence the single player, co-op, and online all integrated into one.

(INF3RN0) #210

Intended as in “team play”, if that is what people are interested in. Pubs tend to play out like a DM 80% of the time.

(Apples) #211

I beg to differ sir! A totally random obj whore can manage to have more xp than any decent killer, thats why you end up with totally usuless supcom in ETQW which unbalance greatly the game.

Peace

(Senyin) #212

You got killing and then you got valuable killing.
It’s the difference between shooting everyone on sight
or making a kill that matters, sometimes ignoring ones that don’t really matter.
I rather have a smart player with avarage aim then a stupid player with suburb aim.
I hate per example a “shoot on sight” player giving away your position when
it’s not needed or just plain stupid.
You can’t win on just aim, have to use other skills.

About the rank system: I rather play with people that are better then me then
with people of my own skill. The former makes me learn faster and try harder.
But I understand if they don’t want me in their team ofcourse.
People in ETQW were very kind, they never complained having an (below) avarage in
their team.

(tokamak) #213

[QUOTE=Apples;221072]I beg to differ sir! A totally random obj whore can manage to have more xp than any decent killer, thats why you end up with totally usuless supcom in ETQW which unbalance greatly the game.

Peace[/QUOTE]

Alright, alright that means that according to you ETQW’s xp system doesn’t reward the right things. Wouldn’t it be better to reach for a better xp system then?

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;221068]@ Tokomak

Vehicles are about the only tangible counter to shooting; I personally don’t consider them similar in anyway b/c they are OP (glad there won’t be any :D). Anything else is just player smarts and organization. Whenever you plan anything in an organized match, it is all focused on inflicting higher casualties on the opposite team. The more you kill the other team, the more momentum you gain as you press forward. You don’t “just kill them”, but you use everything else the game provides in order to kill them. Sometimes you can get an objective from med chaining the objective guy without firing a shot, but that RARELY happens. So it goes in the order of tactics<kills<objective. As to your philosophy that good shots don’t or shouldn’t determine win/skill, your right. BUT as you might be less inclined to acknowledge in this situation again, every other aspect of skill aside from aim is used to get kills. The effectiveness of a player to use such variables in the most efficient manner makes them a better killer than another. Player A can have poor aim, but good movement, and kill another player with the opposite abilities. In the end its all about killing though; gibbing, prioritizing targets, flanking, etc are all used to increase the chances of progress. The problem is that there are too many one-sided views about the importance of aim and teamwork. People just don’t seem to realize that yes aim is very important, but those guys that are kicking your ass are not only great shots, but also extremely smart and well organized players.
[/QUOTE]

We’re not arguing about which skill set is the most important though, we’re saying that killing alone doesn’t cover all the ways you can contribute to the team to get to the objective, and the objective is in the end all that matters.

(INF3RN0) #214

[QUOTE=tokamak;221074]
We’re not arguing about which skill set is the most important though, we’re saying that killing alone doesn’t cover all the ways you can contribute to the team to get to the objective, and the objective is in the end all that matters.[/QUOTE]

Duh. But you see that everything worthwhile is used to get kills right? There is not very many other ways to consistently get objectives without focusing on kills, even if you are doing other things along the way. I would challenge you to have a team of helpy helpers vs a team that focuses equally on killing individually. Your making it sound as if you can complete objectives without doing much killing against a team of purely better shooters. You might be too used to the crappy pub objective sneaks…

(tokamak) #215

I’m not denying that it’s an important part of the game but you can’t ignore the amount of other things to asses someone’s skill. Again, look at the way command posts can totally **** up your plans in ETQW if you leave them unguarded. Are the sneaky buggers with less kills but more command post captures less skilled?

(Jamieson) #216

Thats a good point tokamak and its a tactic I use quite alot, specially on Area 22 as GDF on the first objective, I like to take the spawn back and hold it for as long as possible,

The problem though is that you have to be good at killing to do this, sure you can take it but I can gurantee the other team will have it back pritty quit if you can’t mount a decent defence to stop them.

(INF3RN0) #217

Ok from my experience on a much more leveled and organized playing field, the most effective goal of teamwork is to attempt to set ones self in a position where you can over power an enemy in order to kill them (before or while you are working on the objective). Sometimes you don’t need to do this if they are weak enough or not organized enough to allow for much simpler strategy (rambo in and clean em up), but in most all cases you never want to risk mistakes or failure. The guy who caps spawn points in a pub might feel like he is skilled, as well as the guy who blows up the guard towers or runs up and back stabs people randomly. Go ahead and put them in a fight against a group of killing machines or just some people with a little organization, and it won’t make a difference. Oh gosh I capped the spawn, but hey they still got the objective. The things your using as examples are not a viable alternative to killing in the long run, and instead only offer measurable advantage at certain moments. I would rather have someone killing at the objective rather than always trying to continuously cap the spawn. There are those moments when wow they capped the spawn just in time to allow us to reorganize, but its entirely situational. In method, spawn capping is used to establish a forward defense, allow time for regrouping, or before making a push on an objective. The effectiveness of this in a pub if performed randomly is a 50% chance of it actually being helpful. Killing always helps your team (with the objective in mind). An example of a guy killing someone away from the objective or something is not relative. Revives, etc are just tools for prolonging the fight and keeping your numbers higher than the enemy’s. Luck, sneaking, etc are not an equally effective alternative to good ole fashion killing. Teamwork is required by both, but teamwork in order to promote kills yields more win than what you suggest.

(Jamieson) #218

This is true, In pub I have managed to take the forward spawn and and stopped the strogg from getting it for 3-4 minutes.

In comp though its different, its rare spawns are taken if you are defending because its very risky. taking spawns doesn’t gurantee an advanatge though.

I can give an example of one time when we had all 4 of us at the gen on area 22, the other team took our spawn, but we were domianting the kills and kept everyone up through revives so it didn’t matter. Eventually we sent 1 person to take it back but we were there a good 2 and half minutes and it had no impact what so ever.

(tokamak) #219

I don’t think I can formulate myself in any other way now I’ve tried them all.

Maybe a more simple approach.

Killing = Important, but not goal of game.

Goal of game = Complete objective

Nothing else matters, as long as that objective isn’t fulfilled you’ve lost and it doesn’t matter what you’ve done.

So basing skill on amount of kills = inaccurate and incomplete. A better system is needed than that.

I’m sorry if I sound condescending but it really doesn’t seem to get through.

(INF3RN0) #220

[QUOTE=Jamieson;221083]This is true, In pub I have managed to take the forward spawn and and stopped the strogg from getting it for 3-4 minutes.

In comp though its different, its rare spawns are taken if you are defending because its very risky. taking spawns doesn’t gurantee an advanatge though.

I can give an example of one time when we had all 4 of us at the gen on area 22, the other team took our spawn, but we were domianting the kills and kept everyone up through revives so it didn’t matter. Eventually we sent 1 person to take it back but we were there a good 2 and half minutes and it had no impact what so ever.[/QUOTE]

It happens all the time, and you never realize how things work outside of the non-organized pub. Analyzing the effectiveness of something in a random pub is possibly the worst way to go about things imo. As far as I can see it really… Tomokak needs to play an organized match before assuming he understands what is the most effective focus of teamwork and means of winning.