Real concerns over Brinks Rank system

(H0RSE) #181

if you die more than the ennemy you will loose, even with good revivers or whatever,
lol, this made me laugh…so basically, everyone with a K/D lower than 1.0 is going to lose every (or a majority) game they play…I can tell you right now, I die a lot more than I kill in ET and QW, but it doesn’t matter, because I heal and revive so much. Every time you kill someone, chances are they didn’t have to wait for a respawn because I got there first. Did you just kill that engineer who was planting? Well I just revived him, and he just finished the plant. The team I am on usually wins, and I am usually a key player in the game.

please try to revive a mate someone just sniped in the open @ qw, you’ll prolly be the next one to get headshotted and die,
Sorry, I’m actually a smart player. I’m not going to run out and revive someone who just got sniped - why don’t you just strap a steak to my leg and I’ll jump in the lion’s den…and this has nothing to do with being a good shooter, it has to do with common sense.

(Jamieson) #182

Tell me how a medic will revive someone if the body is gibbed? No one who ever calls themself a pro killer would ever kill someone and leave there body ungibbed for a medic to come along once they have walked off to be revived.

Simple really, kill player, gib them, move onto next target. specially if its the obj person, everyone focuses on the obj person, kill, gib, wait till he respawns focus on him again.

Even in 2v1 situations, specially as strogg. I would kill 1 GDF gib him and if i died then so be it. but atleast I didn’t kill him and then die and he got revived, waste of my life.

You just have to understand that not everyone cares about xp. killing in ETQW rewarded hardly any xp yet it was my favourite thing to do, knowing at the end of the map that we won because I kept all the GDF off our constructor as he built the mining laser is a nice thought.

(H0RSE) #183

Tell me how a medic will revive someone if the body is gibbed? No one who ever calls themself a pro killer would ever kill someone and leave there body ungibbed for a medic to come along once they have walked off to be revived.
in order to gib a body on impact, you need an explosion, bullets alone aren’t enough. 9 times out of 10 when I see a player drop, I will either have him back up in no time or I’ll kill you before you’re done shooting at him - you don’t have time to gib, and in the example I gave with the engineer, I would be close by watching him, so unless you blow him up, you won’t have time to gib him.

You just have to understand that not everyone cares about xp.
I understand this, and this isn’t the reason I play medic.

(tokamak) #184

Ah but the number of times you gib a person isn’t calculated in the K/D.

You totally missed my point. It was to illustrate that teams can have different aproaches to a game and the value per kill depends on that. Besides, no one who ever calls himself a pro medic would let himself get killed on the revive job.

Completely ignoring the technician that kept your team alive, the field ops scaring away the enemy from vital points, the infiltrator providing radar and keeping those deployables down and the agressor wrecking vehicles as well as deployable. Good job on your kills mate.

You killed, you got xp for it. They did their thing, they got xp for it. You may not care about it but a team that only cares about their individual body-counts won’t be nearly as effective as a team that uses all their cards to get that objective done.

(Jamieson) #185

[QUOTE=H0RSE;221037]in order to gib a body on impact, you need an explosion, bullets alone aren’t enough. 9 times out of 10 when I see a player drop, I will either have him back up in no time or I’ll kill you before you’re done shooting at him - you don’t have time to gib, and in the example I gave with the engineer, I would be close by watching him, so unless you blow him up, you won’t have time to gib him.

I understand this, and this isn’t the reason I play medic.[/QUOTE]

The Stroyent tool? Infiltrators/coverts hack tool

a couple of bullets to the head will gib a corpse.

Grenade left by corpse.

Completely ignoring the technician that kept your team alive, the field ops scaring away the enemy from vital points, the infiltrator providing radar and keeping those deployables down and the agressor wrecking vehicles as well as deployable. Good job on your kills mate.

You killed, you got xp for it. They did their thing, they got xp for it. You may not care about it but a team that only cares about their individual body-counts won’t be nearly as effective as a team that uses all their cards to get that objective done.

Thats were your wrong, I want the team to win so I do what im good at, I usually play tech or medic, If I see people dead I will revive them because them alive increases the teams chances of winning because there alive to kill people or do the objective.

A field ops purpose is to kill people or destroy turrets vehicles which will kill our team, Radar is useful because it helps our team kill people, its all down to killing in the end, I never said nobody else was important, I just said it from my point of view.

(tokamak) #186

It still doesn’t count, it’s not included in the amount of kills you make so your skill indicator doesn’t pick up on that. It’s a good example of how just the kill factor is meaningless. Most of us would agree that players who gib the right corpses are more skilled than the ones who do, but that’s completely ignored by the kill tally.

(Jamieson) #187

Well your right, but I was never arguing for it to be implemented into the rank system, in fact I was against a rank system in the first place because no matter how you calaculate XP it will never be perfect.

(light_sh4v0r) #188

H0rse, have you ever played a match 6v6 or 4v4 against a solid team? There’s nothing to revive there, good luck being the best medic of the match, it’s not gonna make you win.

Every competition match you watch, is about having the best shots and coordination. Without those 2 you can forget it. If you believe otherwise, good luck with that.

edit: I shouldn’t leave my pc for an hour and then reply without refreshing :tongue:

(H0RSE) #189

The Stroyent tool? Infiltrators/coverts hack tool

a couple of bullets to the head will gib a corpse.
Don’t you need to be touching the person to use the tools? it’s not like someone is going to run around with jut those gibbing people, and besides, I was talking about gibbing on impact - if you are shooting at a corpse, it obviously didn’t gib on impact. So now it turns into ‘can you gib him faster than I can kill you and/or revive him.’

H0rse, have you ever played a match 6v6 or 4v4 against a solid team? There’s nothing to revive there, good luck being the best medic of the match, it’s not gonna make you win.

Every competition match you watch, is about having the best shots and coordination. Without those 2 you can forget it. If you believe otherwise, good luck with that.

well now this entire debate has gotten very selective. Now killing is only important in organized, competitive matches. My clan days are long gone, like 8 years ago, and when I was into the whole clan thing, it just wasn’t fun. I had the skill to be in a clan, but it took a game I liked playing and made it feel like a chore - like I was obligated to play. Between setting up clan matches, and scrimages, and using vent and TS (I have soicial anxiety, don’t like talking to people)it was just a huge fiasco.

We all don’t play for competition or watch competitive matches or play organized 6v6 or 4v4. I just want to relax, play a game and help my team out, win or lose.

(tokamak) #190

Does it need to be perfect in order to work though? Can’t rough estimates do the job just as well?

Quite worrying for Brink actually, it would mean the balance is totally ****ed if one class isn’t that relevant to the outcome.

Then again, there’s more interaction with bodies, maybe gibbing could even be frowned upon as it takes away interogees. (Though Paul did gib someone in the video).

(Jamieson) #191

[QUOTE=light_sh4v0r;221042]H0rse, have you ever played a match 6v6 or 4v4 against a solid team? There’s nothing to revive there, good luck being the best medic of the match, it’s not gonna make you win.

Every competition match you watch, is about having the best shots and coordination. Without those 2 you can forget it. If you believe otherwise, good luck with that.

edit: I shouldn’t leave my pc for an hour and then reply without refreshing :tongue:[/QUOTE]

Totally agree with this.

(Jamieson) #192

No because a rank system just encourages people to care about there stats not actually winining, I would see it all the time when you get new people to comp (stats and xp don’t matter), they were to scared to engage the enemy and get into a fight because they didn’t want to die.

Hiding away gets you nowhere, get into a fight and you might actually win.

what pissed me off more than anything was people ragequitting 5seconds before a plant went off because they didn’t want there W/L ratio to go down, pathetic. That never happened in ET but it did in ETQW.

ET didn’t have a persistant rank system and IMO is my favourite game of all time because the gamplay was so fun.

(tokamak) #193

Two things here; we’re not talking about a statistics page like in ETQW (because true, that one did have perverse effects), we’re talking about a matchmaking system. It can be a hidden system on the background, nobody will know what is rank is, but everyone will still be pitched with equals.

Secondly. Players caring too much about death is a consequence of attaching to much value to the K/D, it’s actually another argument why K/D shouldn’t be used as an indicator for skill.

(H0RSE) #194

The Stroyent tool? Infiltrators/coverts hack tool

a couple of bullets to the head will gib a corpse.
Don’t you need to be touching the person to use the tools? it’s not like someone is going to run around with jut those gibbing people, and besides, I was talking about gibbing on impact - if you are shooting at a corpse, it obviously didn’t gib on impact. So now it turns into ‘can you gib him faster than I can kill you and/or revive him.’

H0rse, have you ever played a match 6v6 or 4v4 against a solid team? There’s nothing to revive there, good luck being the best medic of the match, it’s not gonna make you win.

Every competition match you watch, is about having the best shots and coordination. Without those 2 you can forget it. If you believe otherwise, good luck with that.

well now this entire debate has gotten very selective. Now killing is only important in organized, competitive matches, and since a lot of people just want to play a game and not worry about the competition, I guess this post doesn’t apply to everyone. You’re using competitive, organized matches as an example. These are teams that play with the same people everyday, know every map by heart, work out strategies, and tactics, and counter-tactics, and everyone who is playing is specialized in the class they are playing as - it goes a little deeper than they are just better shots than the other team.

My clan days are long gone, like 8 years ago, and when I was into the whole clan thing, it just wasn’t fun. I had the skill to be in a clan, but it took a game I liked playing and made it feel like a chore - like I was obligated to play. Between setting up clan matches, and scrimmages, and using vent and TS (I have social anxiety, don’t like talking to people) it was just a huge fiasco.

We all don’t play for competition or watch competitive matches or play organized 6v6 or 4v4. I just want to relax, play a game and help my team out, win or lose.

(Apples) #195

@ Tokomatz

  • Basically R and K strategy is lemmings vs not headless chickenz if I followed well… and lemmings = 85% chances of loosing if you face any “almost decent” opposition, well at least in my world.

  • read again, I never said killing is the ONLY aspect of the game, i just said that indeed it must be taken in the balance when it comes to matchmaking and calculating “skill”, and that to me it is the most powerfull indicator for a FPS game, any noob can take a pair of plier, wait for an airstrike and construct the bridge… Play vs 5 guys from mamut.si, even in 12V12 pub, you will loose, its not a guess here, its a fact.

@ Horse :

  • Yeah having less than 1 KDR usually means you arent helpfull for the team, you think you are cuz you do stuff, but if you killed that damn hyperblaster in the first place you wouldnt have to revive a bazzilion of teammates under enemy fire, risking to die and loose all the area.

  • Regarding the sniper exemple, if you dont revive under fire, how can you qualify yourself of usefull? cuz usually when any decent player shoot another, either he gib the corpse, or he wait for the medic to arrive to kick his ass.

  • Last but not least, if you still play QW feel free to add me ingame and we can have some game together, just to prove my points as we are stuck in an infinite loop of comparing e-peenz here, I guess some practical work can fix the issue (no weird male on male stuff intended).

Peace

(Jamieson) #196

[QUOTE=tokamak;221048]Two things here; we’re not talking about a statistics page like in ETQW (because true, that one did have perverse effects), we’re talking about a matchmaking system. It can be a hidden system on the background, nobody will know what is rank is, but everyone will still be pitched with equals.

Secondly. Players caring too much about death is a consequence of attaching to much value to the K/D, it’s actually another argument why K/D shouldn’t be used as an indicator for skill.[/QUOTE]

on your first point, It doens’t matter if people can see the stats or not, Subconsciously they know it is there and will be measuring their performance so people will play/react differently opposed to if it wasn’t.

second, Kills vs death is a perfect measure of skill, if you kill more than you die then I would say you are a good player, I would obviously look at how many people you killed though. 4-2 probably means you sat hidden all match, 20-10 is better, 40-20/40-10 etc better.

the only time it is a problem like you say is when you include it in a rank system because people then care to much about it. There is nothign wrong about caring for about your K/D aslong as it is for the right reasons. Thats why I would not have any rank system.

(tokamak) #197

[QUOTE=Apples;221050]@ Tokomatz

  • Basically R and K strategy is lemmings vs not headless chickenz if I followed well… and lemmings = 85% chances of loosing if you face any “almost decent” opposition, well at least in my world[/QUOTE]

Yes, exactly, and it doesn’t really matter which approach is more successful. It’s only to illustrate that the kills are not of equal value.

  • read again, I never said killing is the ONLY aspect of the game, i just said that indeed it must be taken in the balance when it comes to matchmaking and calculating “skill”, and that to me it is the most powerfull indicator for a FPS game, any noob can take a pair of plier, wait for an airstrike and construct the bridge…

Right, so what’s wrong with the xp system that rewards the noob who waits with a plier to get a tic on the objective with far less xp than the godlike rambo killing everything in the objective’s vicinity?

(H0RSE) #198
  • Yeah having less than 1 KDR usually means you arent helpfull for the team, you think you are cuz you do stuff, but if you killed that damn hyperblaster in the first place you wouldnt have to revive a bazzilion of teammates under enemy fire, risking to die and loose all the area.
    if there is JUST that “damn hyperblaster,” I’ll try to take him out, but when there’s a group of guys, I’m just gonna go out and gung-ho it.
  • Regarding the sniper exemple, if you dont revive under fire, how can you qualify yourself of usefull? cuz usually when any decent player shoot another, either he gib the corpse, or he wait for the medic to arrive to kick his ass.
    I do revive under fire, when it matters. I’m not going to keep reviving the same guy, just to have him keep dying again - i’ll just have him respawn. And how is the medic going to revive and “kick his ass?” It’s a sniper…do medics have pinpoint, no scope accuracy at across the map distances? Also in your example, you have created a no will scenario for me. - If I run out and die, I’m a bad player/medic, and if I don’t run out to revive him, I’m a bad player/medic.

second, Kills vs death is a perfect measure of skill, if you kill more than you die then I would say you are a good player.
It might say that you’re a good shooter, but that doesn’t necessarily mean you’re a good player. If we ere playing a game where killing is the purpose, like DM or TDM, then yeah, you’re a good player, but in Brink, not so much. Players can have excellent K/D ratios, yet be useless to the team and still lose matches.

(Jamieson) #199

Most of the times I’am indoors or in areas with cover, walking out into the open is just asking to be crossfired and owned.

secondly, If a situation ever occured where you as a medic was right next to the person I was fighting then you should be focusing on me and trying to kill me i.e pressing the 2v1 advanatge, if your sat there waiting for teammate to die then your doing it wrong.

Most 2v1 situations i kill 1 guy and then immedtiadly jump over his body (pulling out stroyent tool midair) then gib him then jump back up to fight the other guy. The other guy is focusing on me so he doesn’t anticipate him dying like I do because I can see his HP going down, he cannot. He is then suprised at that I stop shooting, this gives me a chance and in most cases I survive to try kill the other guy.

Me killing 1 guy and dying is better than me killing one guy then dying and his teammate revivign him.

(Jamieson) #200

I said good player, not good teamplayer.

Besides, I gurantee you that if I got 4 players from the 4 best teams in the world to merc and create a merc team that they would still own a team of lesser shooters who have played together for a year because they would simply out shoot them.

I know this from experience, Our team has played 4v4 matches were the other team had 2 players from 1 team and 2 mercs from another good team. They had never played with each other before but all 4 of them had superior shots to all of us. We played a decent match because our teamwork and coordination helped but they still won.