Rahdo's words - what happened here?

(shirosae) #621

Paradigm of depth
Write poems with thumb sticks
Pens are for schmucks

Ahem. ‘Depth’ is when some mechanism that the player interacts with grows larger. Like, if you make it possible to see which classes the enemy team members are using, you now have access to an extra layer of tactical information that you can interact with. Now, not only are you faced with a group of enemies, but you can adapt your priorities to take account of threat, objective classes, medics that could revive the objective classes, etc. Your objective play just got more deep, because there’s more in there.

If you replace one mechanism like “Aim and click to simulate aiming and trigger pulling with a 1:1 interface”, with another like “Move thumbstick to control the derivative of the motion of the aiming and trigger pulling with a deadzone and curved non 1:1 response” , it doesn’t add depth. It’s a replacement.

If analog sticks had some extra interface, like a third dimension that let you focus shots in 3d embedded in a 4d space or something, sure, depth. If it offered any additional aspect that mouse control doesn’t offer, yep, depth.

It doesn’t. It’s just the replacement of a control system with an inferior control system.

Also: Using bad controls to make a game artificially harder was already old 25 years ago.

On topic stuff: I’d be interested in knowing who did the testing for Brink.

(BiigDaddyDellta) #622

If there were to be a barnyard animal it would go like this, “look an animal, let’s ****ing eat it!” Scene end with a gun shot and a fire roasted critter.

(zenstar) #623

Haha. I was thinking more along the lines of a conquistador class that gets to ride a wild boar into battle. Specially trained battle boars :slight_smile:

On the “depth” argument: there is such a thing as too much depth. Added depth does not automatically equal better game.

Let’s look at an RPG for example: you could add more depth by making the player roll some virtual dice for every single combat check that requires some sort of randomness check and then step through each check showing them the result of their action. About 1% of the population may like this. Most people would agree that obfuscating that away behind a friendlier mechanic that automates the process and has visual icons and numbers for the result makes a better game. It may be “shallower” but it’s far more experience-friendly.

Unless we’re talking a different type of depth, but then we need a clear definition of what is and isn’t depth.

(wolfnemesis75) #624

Brink has more depth than most FPS games. That’s the important thing. And has an Obj-team first focus also not typically found in other FPS games. To what degree of depth as compared to other games it is similar to is at question, but overall, Brink seems fine in this area. Depth is definitely one of its strengths. :slight_smile:

(Smoochy) #625

[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;360987]I like to play all my games with Nvidia 3D Vision… it adds depth
sorry[/QUOTE]

does brink support 3d? and do the battlefield games support it? thats all im interested in.

my tv is 120hz so it might even work with nvidia 3d vision. my monitor is only 60hz but i could replace it if needed.

(GreasedScotsman) #626

@WolfNem: I suppose that’s true if you’ve never played SD’s previous titles or are a console-only gamer… in that case, Brink must seem like a gift from god. To us old people who’ve been around since the days of Wolf3D, Doom, Quake, ET, etc., we view Brink as a step backwards when it comes to gameplay depth. Controller arguments aside, the game itself is just simply not as deep and complex as its id Tech engine predecessors.

I say this with ridiculously strong appreciation for Brink, as the fact that I made Brink TV (with the help of my partner in crime, Mattc0m and several dedicated awesome people). Brink is “so close” to being something phenomenal, but, sadly, the changes required to get it there will likely be too time consuming and costly for SD to deliver based on what Rahado has told us in this thread.

Again, this is why we so deeply desire a SDK on the PC. What works for you, doesn’t work for us. What seems like amazing depth to you (which surely is, in the face of COD clones) isn’t to us.

Several people who have posted in this thread are incredible modders and map makers and would likely pour their hearts into turning Brink into something we PC gamers would want to play endlessly… past the BF3 hype, past whatever comes next… something I’m certain won’t be the case even for this “hardcore” club of yours on the XBox.

I’ve been playing Quake 3/Quake Live for 11 years… and I don’t see me stopping. The only thing that tore me away from that game was ETQW. Why? Because it offered more depth, more complexity, more teamwork and more fun. It was a rare gem. I only stopped playing it because I literally couldn’t find enough people to play against at one point. I hear the scene has picked up since Brink’s release and I’m giving thought to re-installing ETQW after QuakeCon. Hell, I may even do an ETTV broadcast for old time’s sake if we can actually organize some teams.

For all of the console guys that are tired of the negativity on these forums, imagine if one day all we were writing was a link to the SDK and planning our fixes, later followed by merely links to a Pro mod. That’s pretty much the only future Brink has at the moment, as depressing as it seems.

(Seiniyta) #627

[QUOTE=GreasedScotsman;361069]@WolfNem: I suppose that’s true if you’ve never played SD’s previous titles or are a console-only gamer… in that case, Brink must seem like a gift from god. To us old people who’ve been around since the days of Wolf3D, Doom, Quake, ET, etc., we view Brink as a step backwards when it comes to gameplay depth. Controller arguments aside, the game itself is just simply not as deep and complex as its id Tech engine predecessors.

I say this with ridiculously strong appreciation for Brink, as the fact that I made Brink TV (with the help of my partner in crime, Mattc0m and several dedicated awesome people). Brink is “so close” to being something phenomenal, but, sadly, the changes required to get it there will likely be too time consuming and costly for SD to deliver based on what Rahado has told us in this thread.

Again, this is why we so deeply desire a SDK on the PC. What works for you, doesn’t work for us. What seems like amazing depth to you (which surely is, in the face of COD clones) isn’t to us.

Several people who have posted in this thread are incredible modders and map makers and would likely pour their hearts into turning Brink into something we PC gamers would want to play endlessly… past the BF3 hype, past whatever comes next… something I’m certain won’t be the case even for this “hardcore” club of yours on the XBox.

I’ve been playing Quake 3/Quake Live for 11 years… and I don’t see me stopping. The only thing that tore me away from that game was ETQW. Why? Because it offered more depth, more complexity, more teamwork and more fun. It was a rare gem. I only stopped playing it because I literally couldn’t find enough people to play against at one point. I hear the scene has picked up since Brink’s release and I’m giving thought to re-installing ETQW after QuakeCon. Hell, I may even do an ETTV broadcast for old time’s sake if we can actually organize some teams.

For all of the console guys that are tired of the negativity on these forums, imagine if one day all we were writing was a link to the SDK and planning our fixes, later followed by merely links to a Pro mod. That’s pretty much the only future Brink has at the moment, as depressing as it seems.[/QUOTE]

I can comfirm for you that in Quake Wars I do find servers that are filled quite decently :). The issue I have is though that the game crashes/has huge graphic glitches going on >;<

(DarkangelUK) #628

[QUOTE=Smoochy;361068]does brink support 3d? and do the battlefield games support it? thats all im interested in.

my tv is 120hz so it might even work with nvidia 3d vision. my monitor is only 60hz but i could replace it if needed.[/QUOTE]

You kinda missed my joke there :tongue:, but no Brink doesn’t support 3D Vision… no idea about Battlefield. 3D would work on your 120hz TV, but nvidias nvision glasses need direct sight to the infra-red receiver that you place on top of the TV/monitor, so if you’re too far away it may possibly cut out and lose the signal.

(rushzone.com) #629

[QUOTE=GreasedScotsman;361069]@WolfNem: I suppose that’s true if you’ve never played SD’s previous titles or are a console-only gamer… in that case, Brink must seem like a gift from god. To us old people who’ve been around since the days of Wolf3D, Doom, Quake, ET, etc., we view Brink as a step backwards when it comes to gameplay depth. Controller arguments aside, the game itself is just simply not as deep and complex as its id Tech engine predecessors.

I say this with ridiculously strong appreciation for Brink, as the fact that I made Brink TV (with the help of my partner in crime, Mattc0m and several dedicated awesome people). Brink is “so close” to being something phenomenal, but, sadly, the changes required to get it there will likely be too time consuming and costly for SD to deliver based on what Rahado has told us in this thread.

Again, this is why we so deeply desire a SDK on the PC. What works for you, doesn’t work for us. What seems like amazing depth to you (which surely is, in the face of COD clones) isn’t to us.

Several people who have posted in this thread are incredible modders and map makers and would likely pour their hearts into turning Brink into something we PC gamers would want to play endlessly… past the BF3 hype, past whatever comes next… something I’m certain won’t be the case even for this “hardcore” club of yours on the XBox.

I’ve been playing Quake 3/Quake Live for 11 years… and I don’t see me stopping. The only thing that tore me away from that game was ETQW. Why? Because it offered more depth, more complexity, more teamwork and more fun. It was a rare gem. I only stopped playing it because I literally couldn’t find enough people to play against at one point. I hear the scene has picked up since Brink’s release and I’m giving thought to re-installing ETQW after QuakeCon. Hell, I may even do an ETTV broadcast for old time’s sake if we can actually organize some teams.

For all of the console guys that are tired of the negativity on these forums, imagine if one day all we were writing was a link to the SDK and planning our fixes, later followed by merely links to a Pro mod. That’s pretty much the only future Brink has at the moment, as depressing as it seems.[/QUOTE]

Could not have said it any better and its highly unlikely that we will see SDK anytime soon.
Which is a shame for people like grease and mattcom as they put time into brinkTV but the game failed them and many others.

(Smoochy) #630

i knew you were joking, but it reminded me that there was a 3d option.

(Darksider) #631

[QUOTE=GreasedScotsman;361069]@WolfNem: I suppose that’s true if you’ve never played SD’s previous titles or are a console-only gamer… in that case, Brink must seem like a gift from god. To us old people who’ve been around since the days of Wolf3D, Doom, Quake, ET, etc., we view Brink as a step backwards when it comes to gameplay depth. Controller arguments aside, the game itself is just simply not as deep and complex as its id Tech engine predecessors.

I say this with ridiculously strong appreciation for Brink, as the fact that I made Brink TV (with the help of my partner in crime, Mattc0m and several dedicated awesome people). Brink is “so close” to being something phenomenal, but, sadly, the changes required to get it there will likely be too time consuming and costly for SD to deliver based on what Rahado has told us in this thread.

Again, this is why we so deeply desire a SDK on the PC. What works for you, doesn’t work for us. What seems like amazing depth to you (which surely is, in the face of COD clones) isn’t to us.

Several people who have posted in this thread are incredible modders and map makers and would likely pour their hearts into turning Brink into something we PC gamers would want to play endlessly… past the BF3 hype, past whatever comes next… something I’m certain won’t be the case even for this “hardcore” club of yours on the XBox.

I’ve been playing Quake 3/Quake Live for 11 years… and I don’t see me stopping. The only thing that tore me away from that game was ETQW. Why? Because it offered more depth, more complexity, more teamwork and more fun. It was a rare gem. I only stopped playing it because I literally couldn’t find enough people to play against at one point. I hear the scene has picked up since Brink’s release and I’m giving thought to re-installing ETQW after QuakeCon. Hell, I may even do an ETTV broadcast for old time’s sake if we can actually organize some teams.

For all of the console guys that are tired of the negativity on these forums, imagine if one day all we were writing was a link to the SDK and planning our fixes, later followed by merely links to a Pro mod. That’s pretty much the only future Brink has at the moment, as depressing as it seems.[/QUOTE]

I hear you, Me and my buddy have quite a few crazy ideas for BRINK, but sadly I don’t think the SDK will become a reality. Hmmp! We can’t even extract the core brink files as well, but someone was working on a extractor for the SDPK2 file format, hopefully it’ll get done soon.

(Humate) #632

Depth for me are mechanics, that allow for creativity within the given restraints.

Skill based:
For example, if you learn the time and distance it takes for a stroybomb to explode, you can do cool stuff like stroybombing an anansi hovering in midair.

Another example is dumb firing an oblit onto an anansi as you eject from a tormentor, when they have the lock on you.

Psychological based:
Then theres things like momentum, that adds not only to the games depth - but to immersion.

For example, on a map like Salvage when you’re attacking - you might want to bait the enemy into thinking they are open to defuse the charge. The swarm of engies think its all clear for the clutch defuse, but you have a sniper or rocket on the right hill protecting it while the rest of your team is pushed up on the flanks. This ensures you have the momentum and they dont “concede” the objective to set up their defences for the mining laser phase.

Due to the fact there aren’t any cutscenes in b/w objectives and the fact you can place charges on specific angles - things like this are available to you.

massive cough

(tokamak) #633

Precisely.

(.Chris.) #634

[QUOTE=Humate;361236]Stuff

massive cough[/QUOTE]

Made me feel warm on the inside. (or was that just the spicy food from earlier?)

(Verticae) #635

Hit me up, I’ll help shoutcast some of the games in the 4v4 Cup eXk is setting up.

(SockDog) #636

This all seems to come back to SD planning and committing better. I’d really love to hear what they are doing this time round to ensure they don’t repeat the mistakes of ETQW and Brink in as far as missing deadlines, cutting features, delaying/not doing SDKs etc etc.

And I understand you’re not Valve or id. Yet you must negotiate the contracts you sign and have to realise that you’re agreeing to stuff that ultimately impacts the quality of the product you make and your own reputation as a business. At some point your responsibility to pay your employees needs to rest on your ability to produce popular games.

(BiigDaddyDellta) #637

So DLC this saturday supposedly now? why, I mean seriously, why are they’re other sites posting this stuff and the dev’s from Beth and SD remain silent?

Source: http://www.xbox360achievements.org/news-2203-Game-Updated--Brink.html#1

(zenstar) #638

[QUOTE=BiigDaddyDellta;361286]So DLC this saturday supposedly now? why, I mean seriously, why are they’re other sites posting this stuff and the dev’s from Beth and SD remain silent?

Source: http://www.xbox360ac…d–Brink.html#1[/QUOTE]

Bad link. What does it say?

(BiigDaddyDellta) #639

There’s a staff member on xbox360achievements that says DLC lands Saturday the 30th of july, free for two weeks and then no say yet on the price after that.

P.S. i’ll fix the link.

(BiigDaddyDellta) #640

Although HIS source seems to be wiki (I don’t even know what that is exactly just that everyone dogs it) but who knows around here eh?