Because standing on the plane would be a step backwards. It’s not a direction they felt they wanted to go in. Brink is not about standing on planes. Brink is far more complex than standing on a plane. Why would you even ever want to stand on a plane?
Why wont you accept that standing on a plane is just not Brink Wolf.
A little of both. Over the course of Brink’s dev, we had several different guys working on the UI at various times, but we ran into every kind of problem you can imagine (visas expiring, contractor issues, you name it). So it was a real struggle to get in what we did, and an even bigger miracle to get the updated PC browser in after we shipped! You can imagine the issues with that, because it was a very big coding task, but we knew it was important and wanted to improve the game as best we could. 
i cant remember exactly which video it was in, im pretty sure it was something Paul himself was talking about at one of the conventions when you guys were doing your media related stuff
Well, that’s a bit different than us pitching it in “every interview we did”, I’m sure you can agree An obviously, we do still want to improve the comp side of brink… why else would we do stuff like improve spectator mode and whatnot (again, another set of UI tasks… so much comes down to UI)
actually i wanted Brink to succceed as much as you did, since there have been fewer and fewer PC games that have been of any decent quality
Well I (we) appreciate the sentiment, and at least there are some of the things you hope for in a classic PC game, right? Viable hip fire, run & gun, lower damage weapons. And of course, we’re still tweaking stuff too…
Agreed. It just takes so much time! And we’re such a small group of devs (relative to most big game productions) it’s tough finding the time to do as good a job with community interaction as we’d like. But we’re working on ways internally to get better about it.
Nope, I guess I knew it then too, but I thought it was obvious what I meant when I said ET because if you look at all the interviews I ever did, it was 90% talking about teamplay, about overcoming objectives, about making it easier and worth your time to help your teammates, how you got more XP for helping others than kills, etc. Since I had already said (especially on XF) several times that a lot of the more old school hardcore intense skill based shooter gameplay was getting softened (see me quoting myself in my last post), that people understood what I meant by ET. Clearly not everyone did (even with tons of videos showing it), and I could have been more clear. Lesson definitely learned.
First things first: we had bugs to fix (I’m sure you can agree), and we have DLC to get out, since we’re getting paid to do that. Things are as busy here at SD as ever. And it’s not like it’s cheap for us to put an SDK together, so we need the time and resources to do it. Note, that’s not an excuse, just an explanation. And right now, I can’t promise an SDK, as much as I want to. All I can promise is that we really want to get one out, and time will tell if we can find a way to make that happen.
Also the guns…you made a game that was advertised as always be moving yet you guys made the guns horrible when your moving…kinda dumb don’t u think?
I strafe and fire SMGs all the time, it’s one of the things, I think, that makes us feel very different than most modern shooters, that you can still have viable hipfire (depending on the gun and attachments). Maybe it’s not as viable as you guys would like, but gun tweaks will continue, and as I said above to Shir, we’re going to try to get better about communicating with you guys about it. Can’t promise more right now, but watch this space
Well, you have to bear in mind that character artists who did 90% of the work on customization wouldn’t be able to help much with weapon balance And of course, the proof’s in the reviews. Literally almost every single review of Brink is hugely positive about our customization, even the negative reviews. And we gets tons of positive feedback about it. In the end, I still stand by my feelings that it was an overall net positive for the game. And like I said above, you can choose to be unhappy about having a harder time id’ing enemy solidiers, your you can look at it as a new challenge added to the game and creates more depth.
Yes, that’s me justifying after the fact, because I would have loved to have cracked the customization + total class recognition thing, and we didn’t on Brink. But we always knew we wouldn’t be able to get everything 100%. We know some people don’t like some of the choices, but a LOT of people do. If I could do it over, I probably would have included stuff in the game (a server setting) that forces players to wear specific recognizable outfits when they switch classes (operatives as anger top, for instance), so in comp play, you’d know that someone with a hoodie is an operative. Then if you wanted that experience, you could have chosen to play on that kind of server (a comp one). But again, that would have taken more time (especially UI time… and you’ve heard about our problems there already).
Everytime I heard somebody talking about BRINK, it’s about how bad the game is balanced or how bad the gun feeling is, not the customization system.
And I can talk to plenty of people who love the customization. Believe me, even if you don’t know people who like it, we know of many many many more who do. It was a success in terms of broadening our audience and getting more people interested in the game.
Also, don’t force us to play a game that we dislike naturally (ref to “WolfNem is now my new personal hero”). It’s not about comparing it to W:ET or ET:QW, but the game itself isn’t enjoyable at this state, for all the reasons stated across this forum.
Well, strictly speaking, I’m sure you’d have to agree that it’s not enjoyable for you, and players like you. You can’t really blanket say that it’s simply not enjoyable period, because lots and lots (hundreds of thousands, by our ongoing playerbase stats) of players think it is enjoyable. I certainly think it’s enjoyable. Obviously, we didn’t make a game for everyone, we couldn’t. Still, I’m genuinely bummed that you don’t enjoy it, because I want everyone to enjoy it and have fun, and we did try as much as we could under the circumtances to make it more PC. And obviously, we are still working on trying to give you a game that’s fun, otherwise we wouldn’t have released 6 patches in 6 weeks, we wouldn’t still be working overtime trying to improve the game, etc.
But to your quote, no one is forcing you to play it. If you literally just don’t like the game, and knowing what it’s about and what it’s trying to achieve, you never will like the game, then you can always move on to the next one. Or you can stick with us and see how things go. Or you can even try to look at it as it is and see if you can find anything worthwhile or redeeming in it. Really, you can’t find one single fun thing in the game? Not one, not one second of joy to be had playing? Well, if that’s true, I’m sorry you didn’t enjoy it, and there’s clearly not much I can do about that (in spite of the fact that we are still working on trying to improve it for you, and everyone else). I genuinely wish you the best and hope you enjoy your next game more…
Well, the problem with a lot of the things you’re talking about are that they make the game much more hardcore. That’s why you like them, because they demand a much higher level of basic skill to be able to compete. That makes the game intrinsically less appealing to the wider audience, and if we didn’t appeal to the wider audience, Brink would not have turned a profit, and we’d be out of business. Brink cost many many many many millions more to make than W:ET or even ETQW. If SD makes games that don’t turn a profit, publishers won’t fund our next game, and we’ll be out of work. It’s really that simple. So we tried to find a nice compromise, adding so much more depth of play than what you see in just about any other modern shooter out there, making a game where you didn’t have to ironsight to succeed, where camping isn’t the defacto behavior amongst everyone, where you can overcome any obstacle by playing smarter (not just better for faster, but smarter) than your opponent, where you can get a real sense of satisfaction by working together with other human beings. And while some fun stuff from W:ET didn’t make it in (like shooting off helmets) we put in other stuff that would be fun (like being able to customize your character).
See, that’s just not cool. Sure, wolf is saying stuff you don’t agree with, but he’s not telling you to shut up. I dunno, I guess I’m just too sensitive, but when I’m posting online, I always try to imagine I’m having a conversation with a person in real life, and I would NEVER tell someone to out and out SHUT UP! It’s just so rude. If they’re being rude, I’d just walk away instead. Shouting at someone who’s shouting at you just leads to more shouting. Talking calmly and in a friendly manner generally (but not always) calms the other person down, and then you guys can actually talk about something value and maybe, if youre lucky, work through your differences a little bit.
I’ll get off my soapbox now
Two: I appreciate rahdo for posting but I disagree with it all.
See, that’s what I’m talking about!
no matter how well you say it is “working as intended”, the player retention is not there. Which means if this its how you want the game to be, people dont like it. And you failed. And I would love to hear some ownership of that.
I still get plenty of pickup games on 360. Often totally full, rarely less than half full, all times of the day or night. And our stats of who’s playing and for how long tells a different story (on consoles anyway). Sorry if you’re having a harder time finding players to hook up with. But you want to play with others, add them to your friends list. Almost any time I turn on my machine, my friends list has at least 2 or 3 people playing Brink, so it’s never very hard to get into a game, for me at least.
The only thing I want to bring up, and I dont expect a response, is the choice to forgo a lobby and party system for consoles.
I would LOVE to talk about this actually. I have to admit, I was so shocked that no lobbies had such a negative response. Battlefield games don’t have them and gets a pass, and so I’d really like to know what exactly it is that you’re missing out on by not having a lobby? I’m not being sarcastic here. What, point by point, is it that ruins the experience for you to not have a lobby. I’d love to talk about this!
Also, to answer your question as to why we don’t, I already have a couple of times above: they take a LOT of UI work. THey were originally in the plan, when push came to shove there wasn’t the bandwidth to get them done, and since Battlefield didn’t have them, and since everything you can do with a lobby you can simply do from within game anyway (because of hotjoining and whatnot), we made the call to go without (rather than, for example, go without any sort of dedicated server browswer for PC).
But like I said, I’d definitely like to understand better just what it is in Brink that’s missing because we don’t have lobbies. Looking forward to your reply!
Good question, I’ll ask tomorrow!
If only. You’ve seen my interview, I just can’t shut up! And besides, I try to give really good thorough answers to help ensure there’s no misunderstandings (since they’re so easy to happen online)
Also dont talk about how SD didnt have enough time to put in some important features and just end it there. You have all the time in the world now.
But not all the money in the world. We’re a business and we’ve got to keep the money coming in, or we die. Like a shark that always has to keep swimming to not drown. That’s the way of the world. Believe me, I WISH we had more money than god in the bank (like Valve) and could just iterate and iterate and polish and polish until everything was perfect, but we don’t. But we are doing what we can to improve things, even if it does cost us. But there are limits. But you can see that, right? That we are still trying to improve the game? Multiple patches, multiple updates, ongoing tweaks, etc.?
but it really lowers the skill gap
Agreed, which makes it a bit more accessible to pub players. I have to admit, I’m really surprised that competetive play is allowing such high ranks. I had always assumed that real pro play would limit the game to vanilla rank 1 characters (with body types and weapon attachments available) and that was it (hell, maybe going to up rank 2 to get some very basic class abilities). Myself, I enjoy playing high level matches because of all the crazy combinations of stuff that you’ll run into, but I actually enjoy more the low level game, which is how I often play with my friends online. But far be it from me to tell the tournamnent guys how to run their show. But if i were them, that’s how I’d do it.
Nowadays, all it is is camping and hoping you get the first shot and the lucky spread. It wouldn’t surprise nor insult me in the least if a spectator during the Brink TV matches was thinking to himself, “big deal, I could do that.” Then you look at something like a Quake 3 match and you think to yourself, “wow, I could never do that in a million years.”
Yup, and Brink is definitely a step above that. But I appreciate still a step below the high levels of skill you guys are looking for. Again, sorry that everyone had an expectation that was what we were doing… I though I had been super clear (especially in XF) that we were making something slower (I often came right out and said this), but clearly I could have done better here.
I will say though that most anyone watching the le parkour video on Youtube has that same “wow, how did he do that” response, and half the stuff he’s doing in there does take real skill and practice. But that’s not what you guys were looking for, I get that. Ah well. Again, sorry for the misunderstanding, and I hope you can still find something fun in Brink to enjoy. We still think it’s pretty damn fun.
Sorry, K, that’s just not true. There’s still a very active player base. We’re nowhere near as big as other games, but we’re we never had any illusions we would be. Considering we’re a brand new IP surrounded by a sea of sequels and licensed products, where the vast majority of new IPs curl up and die, we had really really heathy sales, and we continue to have a good (not great, I’ll admit, but good) sized player base, on console anyway. And we’re continuing to try to make improvements for PC too.
I’m pretty sure if my firm sold sub-standard goods our response to our customers wouldn’t be “heh, we’re sorry you don’t like the product, but ya know, we’re only human”. Or that to answer our customers concerns we’d fail to answer the phone Monday - Friday and then call them on Sunday and remind them, several times, that this actually was a Sunday and we have real lifes so be grateful.
Okay, I’m sorry, just to be clear, are you saying I should just not post at all?
Nope I’m pretty sure we never said that. Believe me, we’d like to, but as I mentioned above, there are financial realities we have to deal with…
Actually, the vast majority of the video only was PC (including all of the “here’s how the game plays ones” we released right before ship), played with 360 controllers. Only in the last few months was console footage around, and most of that was direct cam feed from shows.
U already did it
If you really feel that way, then I guess you can just /ignore any future posts I make, and that’s okay. But in the meantime, we’ll still be trying to improve the game as best we can
Toka, if that were the case, why would I be here talking to you now? Why would I be giving up my spare time if I didn’t care? I guess I could just be masocistic, but I don’t think that’s the case
Also, I’m not sure what that quote from Exedore is responding to. Link?
Phony courtesies are useless
Seriously, Toka. Do you really think I’m phony? Really? Wow, I am really gutted by that. Much more so than any bad review Brink got. You’ve been here forever, we’ve had long back and forths about the game. We’ve had direct conversations. And you think I’m phony? I honestly don’t know what to say, if you really think that.
Think I’ll take a break here for awhile…
That was aimed directly at the post above me and definitely not at you. The post at hand:
The phony courtesies would be mine if I started sugar coating my views instead of expressing my disappointment which wouldn’t serve the dialogue. And I don’t like being that way, the raw content of Brink is amazing but I think the design team has took a very crude approach to it, especially if you hold it up against ETQW.
Brinks’ popularity seems beyond salvaging but the game itself can still be saved, whether that’s worth it is up to whoever writes the checks.
Anyway, quick tip, if you click on the arrow of Exedore’s quote, it takes you directly to the post. So:
http://www.splashdamage.com/forums/showthread.php?p=343010#post343010
There’s more on the second page.
Now to an outsider it may seem nitpicking but any shooter player knows that the way gunplay is treated will define the game in what it is. Shift a few parameters to the left or the right and a FPS becomes a totally different game. I’m confident in saying that the gun play is the sole reason why COD has become so successful. It’s what makes games addicting, it’s what makes players push the game on their friends so they can challenge each other and play it for years on end while buying every instalment that follows it.
Now you said that people want a COD kind gunplay and why you didn’t want that. But that’s a sentiment I rarely heard on this place. COD mechanics clearly don’t serve an objective style gameplay. It’s not what people want. Anyway, I laid out the rest in that link I posted. Would very much appreciate it if you read it.
I understand the need to improve spectator mode, but I think the need for the game to have a form of competitive merit is far bigger. After all, there’s not a lot to spec if there’s no matches being played.
It’s the ‘small’ part that seems to keep people like yourself interacting with the community, really, and it makes the company a better one for it. I vote that Paul Wedgwood should personally pay a buck for every comment made by an employee that properly interacts with the community, listening and responding to feedback in ways like this. I’d also challenge SD employees to thereby bankrupt Paul Wedgwood. >.>
Sounds long overdue, but very welcome!
This is where I believe the per-platform release would work a lot better. More focus and attention to the specific platform, with the previously completed versions already able to pay for part of further development.
There’s an active playerbase, but, especially on the PC, you can’t argue that it’s dropped very fast since its release.
Also, more awesomepoints.
I would disagree with the “standing on plane is not Brink” statement…
The invisible walls seem contradicting overall to me since I feel like half of the point of being a light is to use some “vertical gunplay” to change up an enemies line of sight so they either concentrate on the light guy leaping above/around them or the heavy on the ground/in their face. Changing an enemies line/angle of sight is a nice support move in Brink because without his teammates giving that enemy proper fire support that enemy can’t spray the crowd if he’s aiming up at the light guy which takes a heavy enemy’s fire off the rest of ur team & helps give a light guy a better change of winning against a light. The plane is an invisible wall that I feel should be moved, I understand some invis. walls are meant to keep U in the map but that isn’t the case with the plane.
Are there also invisible walls on places U should be able to grab but can’t or is that because the is simply no “grab ledge” option applied to that spot. For ex. the Shipyard crane bridge on the 2nd part. when the bridge is down U should be able to get across with a wallhop but U don’t grab the oppisite edge, U just fall even if get enough distance so the edge hits U in ur chest! BTW… U can cross from the defense side of the bridge to the attacking side. (Hint: rail grab!) Pointless but fun… I’m on the PS3 so forgive me a bit for not understanding why U can’t grab certain spots.
Hey, rahdo, I still find enough in BRINK to enjoy it. Sad to read that the interface was such a toughie, cuz it’s the biggest issue for me and with my group. I see it is being taken care of a little each patch so keep it up!
Rahdo: I’m honestly glad that at least the console version is getting some play, but I think it’s quite obvious that most people here are referring to the PC version, and steam player stats coupled with server browsers that give an active player count clearly show that the PC version has declined massively. In that context, would you still consider a peak player count of around 660 globaly for a few weeks now as good? That’s an unprecedented decline in PC players, and even more so considering PC games can’t be sold or traded, so literally people just stopped playing even though they still have the game on their systems.
I get that there are still players and I myself still play, but in the face of actual numbers, that to me suggests that the PC version was very sub-par even for a new IP.
Also another tidbit, didn’t Bad Company 2 on 360 not have lobbies because it had dedicated servers? You don’t need players brought to you in a lobby when you can see where they all are.
Can we get a current view of the unique players on each platform, please? Would be interesting to see the numbers.
Sorry, should’ve made it clear “on PC”.
Almost everyone who bought the PC version is no longer playing it.
That’s what Steam stats tell us, are you seriously suggesting otherwise ?
To be quite honest I see (and I’m sure others do) that update as trying to make sure you don’t look foolish in front of thousands of people at Quakecon as they aren’t addressing any of the major competitive, or the issues that plague even the casuals, concerns (spread, ATI issues, ability to see classes, etc), but instead are making it more spectator friendly for the masses that will be watching this shooter be played live. There will be so many major teams, players, and sponsors there that are well respected in e-sports that it’s obvious the game has to at least appear good from a spectator’s point of view.
Indeed. I’ve not bothered to look at the console stats site but I’m guessing there is no way to crawl through the data and get some numbers?
Aren’t all Quakecon tourneys now exclusively on X360s? :trollface:
[QUOTE=Rahdo;358175]
I would LOVE to talk about this actually. I have to admit, I was so shocked that no lobbies had such a negative response. Battlefield games don’t have them and gets a pass, and so I’d really like to know what exactly it is that you’re missing out on by not having a lobby? I’m not being sarcastic here. What, point by point, is it that ruins the experience for you to not have a lobby. I’d love to talk about this!
Also, to answer your question as to why we don’t, I already have a couple of times above: they take a LOT of UI work. THey were originally in the plan, when push came to shove there wasn’t the bandwidth to get them done, and since Battlefield didn’t have them, and since everything you can do with a lobby you can simply do from within game anyway (because of hotjoining and whatnot), we made the call to go without (rather than, for example, go without any sort of dedicated server browswer for PC).
But like I said, I’d definitely like to understand better just what it is in Brink that’s missing because we don’t have lobbies. Looking forward to your reply! [/QUOTE]
Pre-game lobbies which Battlefield Bad Company 2 does include, in order to get your squad together, allow players to group up with eachother before entering a game. For instance, I get in a game and want to invite my friends, but OOPS the game is full and I have to back out and continue searching for a game me and my friends can fit in. It’s annoying and defeats the purpose of having a team oriented game, when you have to fight to play with your team in the first place.
Oh Jeez, the only thing (realistically) that could save this game alive on PC, is not even in development, and u talking about improving the PC version, there will be BF3 and COD, and only thing that would hold players is DLC? Guys I don’t see any reason why any PC or console players will stay in the game after 5-6 months.
I read all reviews about Brink in Russian gaming press, and yes u right most of them are positive, but I also saw all comments on this game on major ru forums, and believe me there is NOTHING positive there, 90% of ppl thinking this game is a total fail. Please link me sum forums with positive feedback please.
And again, please show us this many many more, there are they?
I’m sorry but there is a facts, and the fact is, it’s not enjoyable for 90-95% of PC players.
Yea, and the results are insane, we have nothing to worry about, Brink will have long and healthy life.
Yea right , but I found it strange, that 99% of my friends and clanmates who bought Brink are not playing this game anymore, don’t u find it strange that almost all who I know are now “moving forward to the next one”?
U making a cosmetic changes, the only thing that could save Brink on PC is SDK, but u will make a DLC, that will change nothing.
Numbers?
It was an x-box version emulated on PC or PC version? Cos I saw a screenshot of PC HUD just week before release, why there is a console HUD in all of this videos, and why 360 controllers all the time?
Oh stop it please, we both know, how the things going in the real world, and all this “we’ll still be trying to improve the game as best we can” has nothing to do with reality. I can’t believe u and all other developers didn’t knew about how bad is PC version then u sell it to PC players, where was a decision to abandon small group of fans and go for bigger sales, there is nothing magical here. I’m not blaming u, u just did it like many other developers now days.
For this game in particular, with its limits on ability points and effective-classes-per-character, it would help people put together good teams, so everyone’s not using their super-speced Engineer character at the same time with no decent Medics/Ops/Soldiers. (this should also be coupled with being able to select your character from within the lobby/between matches without having to drop from the server)
[QUOTE=Kinjal;358235]Oh Jeez, the only thing (realistically) that could save this game alive on PC, is not even in development, and u talking about improving the PC version, there will be BF3 and COD, and only thing that would hold players is DLC? Guys I don’t see any reason why any PC or console players will stay in the game after 5-6 months.
I read all reviews about Brink in Russian gaming press, and yes u right most of them are positive, but I also saw all comments on this game on major ru forums, and believe me there is NOTHING positive there, 90% of ppl thinking this game is a total fail. Please link me sum forums with positive feedback please.
And again, please show us this many many more, there are they?
I’m sorry but there is a facts, and the fact is, it’s not enjoyable for 90-95% of PC players.
Yea, and the results are insane, we have nothing to worry about, Brink will have long and healthy life.
Yea right , but I found it strange, that 99% of my friends and clanmates who bout Brink are not playing this game anymore, don’t u find it strange that almost all who I know are now “moving forward to the next one”?
U making a cosmetic changes, the only thing that could save Brink on PC is SDK, but u will make a DLC, that will change nothing.
Numbers?
It was an x-box version emulated on PC or PC version? Cos I saw a screenshot of PC HUD just week before release, why there is a console HUD in all of this videos, and why 360 controllers all the time?
Oh stop it please, we both know, how the things going in the real world, and all this “we’ll still be trying to improve the game as best we can” has nothing to do with reality. I can’t believe u and all other developers didn’t knew about how bad is PC version then u sell it to PC players, where was a decision to abandon small group of fans and go for bigger sales, there is nothing magical here. I’m not blaming u, u just did it like many other developers now days.[/QUOTE]
Hey, since we don’t want to be rude to each other I would like to point out that some of your responses fall flat on their face. Please read what he is saying about customization. His points still stand and your “rebuttal” looks silly.
edit: meh
[QUOTE=sereNADE;358239]Hey, since we don’t want to be rude to each other I would like to point out that some of your responses fall flat on their face. Please read what he is saying about customization. His points still stand and your “rebuttal” looks silly.
edit: meh[/QUOTE]
I don’t get your points, but it’s doesn’t matter. For me, there was a last tiny hope, what there will be an SDK for brink and something maybe change but, it seems - not going to happen. So sorry if I hurt you’re feeling with my post, may be its my last post about brink, I will try not to argue with Rahdo anymore.
You’re underestimating how much work an SDK takes compared to the work they can directly apply to the game.
I bought the game because I actually loved the footage I saw, the PR around it - and foremost ‘The Story’
Having customizable characters is really amazing (as stated by many before me)
Though, what disappointed me was that the campaign mode felt like scrambled eggs. It’s way to concentrated on multiplayer gaming and it’s just a bunch of stockmaps with cutscenes in it (when playing campaign mode). Well I guess I can’t say I haven’t been warned, it has been said that it’s a very multiplayer focused game. But well - campaign doesn’t feel like campaign at all.
I also noticed, I’m on PS3 - there’s really not that many people playing around. Mostly bots and that’s it.
Hm - but well, the main reason I decided to put my first Brink post, was to thank Rahdo for his time he put into answering the community.
They ask(ed), you answer(ed) - that’s a good thing