Proxy is nearly awesome.

(spookify) #21

I think all this talk will be for not when they double abilities… Mines will be more powerful, nades, air strikes and all other abilities… I hope it increases team play by making medic reviving better in someway…

(Szakalot) #22

[QUOTE=tokamak;513821]Mines should be automatically armed. HOWEVER Automatic arm should ONLY have a low damage snare/concussion effect. Obviously not as strong as conker. Just incredibly annoying and potentially able to flash multiple players.

Then Proxy can ‘prime’ the mine manually which turns the mine into a high-explosive lethal mine.

That way she can still keep littering her mines around and be an asset to the team, but she won’t net any free kills from the ones that aren’t guarded or primed.

At this rate a low-effort proxy will still be useful to the team, but a high-effort proxy will be the one reaping all the personal kills and xp.[/QUOTE]

I like this idea.

Personall I’d like to see arming the mine increase its reaction time. Both mines deal the same amount of damage (so there is no ambiguity for the opponent regarding how the hell does this thing work), but manually armed mines explode much faster thus killing the target, whereas automatically armed mines are slow, and merely damage the enemy; if they just run through.

(spookify) #23

One Mine

Physically Arm

Increase Damage and Blast to kill and gib in radius

Only Visible to Team

Remember we are going to have FF ON!!!

All this testing with FF off is hurting my brain…

(Glottis-3D) #24

[QUOTE=Szakalot;513828]I like this idea.

Personall I’d like to see arming the mine increase its reaction time. Both mines deal the same amount of damage (so there is no ambiguity for the opponent regarding how the hell does this thing work), but manually armed mines explode much faster thus killing the target, whereas automatically armed mines are slow, and merely damage the enemy; if they just run through.[/QUOTE]
less dangerous mines should look different from more dangerous. so these are basically two diferent types of mines.
otherwise it is very frustrating to have the same looking mines have diferent mechanics and damage.

(Sun_Sheng) #25

[QUOTE=spookify;513831]One Mine

Physically Arm

Increase Damage and Blast to kill and gib in radius

Only Visible to Team

[/QUOTE]

  • 1 000 000
(spookify) #26

After all we have talked about and all the promises that SD has made we still have rag doll dead bodies and no explosive gibs… We only have sniper headshot gibs…

There is an unbelievable amount of work that needs to go into this game yet…

They have had 1 full month of coding so I hope this next update is huge or polished!

(tokamak) #27

[QUOTE=Szakalot;513828]I like this idea.

Personall I’d like to see arming the mine increase its reaction time. Both mines deal the same amount of damage (so there is no ambiguity for the opponent regarding how the hell does this thing work), but manually armed mines explode much faster thus killing the target, whereas automatically armed mines are slow, and merely damage the enemy; if they just run through.[/QUOTE]

Yeah that would probably more subtle. Got to be careful with ‘ability creep’ where mercs start diversifying too much into other merc’s niches.

(INF3RN0) #28

Once again another thread where I can drop the phrase ‘ability counters’. Since SD liked the idea of making abilities more impactful, then please go for it- but give the opportunity to rebut them with ability counters. A powerful hidden mine will come across as an annoying skilless way to die, unless you make the abilities feel less like spam and more like strategy. Something like giving the recon the ability to reveal mines with his sensor or whatnot, which can then be shot or captured or whatever… and suddenly you’ve added an extra layer of much needed strategy and interest. At which point dying to an ability will feel more like a strategical mistake or something you can prepare for better in the next wave.

(tokamak) #29

Red Eye and other scanning mercs should be able to spot mines indeed. Though that counter might be too circumstantial.

Maybe other engineers having a warning beep whenever there’s a mine nearby. Nothing visual, just an ambiguous beep.

(INF3RN0) #30

[QUOTE=tokamak;513839]Red Eye and other scanning mercs should be able to spot mines indeed. Though that counter might be too circumstantial.

Maybe other engineers having a warning beep whenever there’s a mine nearby. Nothing visual, just an ambiguous beep.[/QUOTE]

I think keeping counters circumstantial or involving precise timing is necessary to make them an important skill/focus of the game. If all counters are automated and easy to use then it lessens the effect. Hopefully that makes sense. Perhaps counters could come in different forms, some more effective than others. A beeping for all players for example might notify them that there’s a mine in the vicinity, but they’d have no means of disabling it without the recon. That would likely be an improvement on the idea.

(Mustang) #31

No, mine spotting should not be a thing, the whole idea of going the merc route is to make them optional, not mandatory.

Also not so long ago people were complaining that mines were too hard to see, and now you want to make them invisible?

lol

(tokamak) #32

It’s not about how powerful the mines are or how effective the spotting should be. We’re talking about soft counters here.

And well, suppose mines were really lethal nasty things. Instant self-arming, huge damage large radius. And the ONLY way for them to be spotted would be a few particular mercs.

Then those mercs still wouldn’t be considered ‘mandatory’. You can still complete the game without those counters, you’re just going to have a harder time doing so. The only argument against driving the polarity of these counters too far is that it turns the game too much into rock paper scissors.

(montheponies) #33

But in public play chances are you will still die to said mine, as you’re team doesnt have the requisite and competent merc. Even if you do have that merc in your team he would need to use his ability at the right time and place to support you, all of which is akin to getting saturn to line up with venus…it might happen, but so feckin rarely as to make the rest of the time painful and frustrating.

I really dont want an overcomplicated MOBAFPS, that requires ballet like co-ordination between players - not because i dont acknowledge the skill involved, but simply because in day to day games i can’t see it being pulled off - and personally I’m just lazy and like things simple.

(Szakalot) #34

[QUOTE=montheponies;513852]But in public play chances are you will still die to said mine, as you’re team doesnt have the requisite and competent merc. Even if you do have that merc in your team he would need to use his ability at the right time and place to support you, all of which is akin to getting saturn to line up with venus…it might happen, but so feckin rarely as to make the rest of the time painful and frustrating.

I really dont want an overcomplicated MOBAFPS, that requires ballet like co-ordination between players - not because i dont acknowledge the skill involved, but simply because in day to day games i can’t see it being pulled off - and personally I’m just lazy and like things simple.[/QUOTE]

Also the game is wayyyy too fast for such coordination. By the time a mine is spotted already 5 people would have stepped on it : P

(tokamak) #35

The trapper in Evolve really works well in this regard. It’s by far the most important role in the hunter team and if the trapper is incompetent the entire team loses easily. So what the game does is at least provide lots of passive/aura perks to the trapper so that the rest of the team isn’t entirely depended on her.

What this means is that the rest of the team won’t be able to track a monster by themselves. But a trapper will be able to spot tracks. Not just personally but also any tracks she gets close to will light up to the other players as well. They won’t appear as strong and she has other means of guiding the team with more effort but ultimately there’s checks and balances in case she doesn’t.

The same goes for mine spotting. All engineer mercs could have a wide aura around them that gives a subtle/ambiguous mine detection. A strong mine detection would actually highlighting the mines and giving them hud indication. A medium detection would merely be making them more visible and a mild detection would be a simple warning beep or a ‘careful, mines are in the area’ whenever an engineer gets close.

It really lowers the bar for coordination but adds an appropriate counter to a specific merc ability. And of course, Inferno’s point is that this is just an example of one of the many ways in which these subtle counters can play a role without overcomplicating things to the players themselves.

(Sun_Sheng) #36

oh dear … i’m back to ET again :stuck_out_tongue: but mines in ET were invisible and it never caused a problem. Since proxy is so limited in the number of mines it’s not hard to guess where they’ll be, and if they aren’t there, then they’re probably useless since there best use is defensive

On a slight aside, with them visible, i was playing as proxy last night and i’m more of an smg than shotgun player so when i came up against another Proxy, rather than risk the 1v1 and losing it, I shot one of her own mines and killed her that way. It got credited as a self-kill and I got nothing. Along with giving away free frags every time I /kill … kdr can end up highly unrealistic :confused:

(Szakalot) #37

[QUOTE=Sun_Sheng;513856]oh dear … i’m back to ET again :stuck_out_tongue: but mines in ET were invisible and it never caused a problem. Since proxy is so limited in the number of mines it’s not hard to guess where they’ll be, and if they aren’t there, then they’re probably useless since there best use is defensive
[/QUOTE]

ET is a little slower as far as how engagements are played out, DB reminds me more of close-quarter QWpro, less positioning and more chaos. On the other hand, crossfires are just as deadly as in ET.

In any case, a very effective tactic is to just throw mines all over the place; typically people are too busy running&gunning to bother to notice any, and even if they are spotted; they slow down your opponents, as well as approximate their position.

I’ve seen numerous proxy players run into obj area, throw some mines die/run away, only for those mines to activate at the worst time for the opposing team.

They definitely do not serve the same role as in ET, where area denial was thought-out and camped-in. Oasis gun or goldrush truck area come to mind as number one spots that you basically skip; knowing full well its completely mined out.

Here, area of denial utilities usually provide a few seconds of slowing down the enemy, that can still swing a game. In this context, proxy’s mines serve similar roles to molotov, or ‘defensive airstrike/arty’. This is good!

(Nail) #38

mines were never a prob in W:ET, engis just spammed nades onto known spots, job done

(INF3RN0) #39

Well I guess my incentive is to have a system where everything is counterable by any merc to some degree, but more so by certain archetypes. In the example of a mine, (we were talking about a single+manual arm+realistic c/d) if it were indeed invisible but beeped at an interval you would know it was there and could either avoid it, spray bullets, or notify a teammate who might be better suited. In this case anyone could counter a mine, but for the sake of example let’s say that a recon merc could actually reveal them with the pda tool and then perhaps have the option to capture it. Still a fragger could nade the area, anyone could spray bullets, drop arty, try to sprint dodge, etc and still trigger the mine. When the goal is to run down the clock though, the most efficient and coordinated team will be able to diminish the impact of abilities the most and that might mean counter picking if it’s really necessary.

(INF3RN0) #40

[QUOTE=tokamak;513854]The trapper in Evolve really works well in this regard. It’s by far the most important role in the hunter team and if the trapper is incompetent the entire team loses easily. So what the game does is at least provide lots of passive/aura perks to the trapper so that the rest of the team isn’t entirely depended on her.
[/QUOTE]

Not to stray off topic, but as a level 22 hunter I can assure you that it’s an equally weighted contribution (otherwise I’d lean towards medic if anything). Of course inexperienced trappers make landing an arena seem hard lol. But I’d go as far as to say that any weak link in the chain will result in an instant loss as ‘carrying the team’ is not possible like it is in many team based games (mostly because the performance : punishment ratios of monster vs hunter are incredibly askew). There’s a reason why you see an over-saturation of streamers entitled ‘pro level undefeated monster’.