"Pro" Mode


(Zenity) #1

Something just occurred to me, with all the talk about Fragger balance and whatnot. Adeto keeps pushing for merc limits, and while I haven’t been too keen on the idea so far, it’s starting to grow on me. I don’t think a merc limit is sufficient though, because as the merc pool grows, one day we might have four mercs which are similar to Fragger and we’d be back to square one. A limitation by class (e.g. one or two assault classes max) could work though. That got me thinking about how that could possibly be implemented in the UI. One big issue is that we can choose three mercs, so how exactly would a limit work? Whether you enforce the limit by the time of choosing your party, or during the game when selecting your merc, both methods have issues.

Then I wondered, what if we simply don’t have a party of three, but you have to choose one fixed merc in competitive play? Having a party of three makes sense in that you can adjust to changing situations on casual servers. For competitive matches it shouldn’t be necessary, because teams should be able to pick a sensible selection from the start.

The main advantage would be that a limit could be enforced with ease. You could have class-based limits and/or a one-player-per-team-and-merc rule as desired. The only thing to consider with the one-player-per-merc rule would be that you would require five free mercs at a given time to ensure that every player can pick a merc if they haven’t unlocked any.

It would also sidestep “exploits” like switching mercs to optimise ability cooldowns. I’m not saying this is cheating, but I expect that top teams would eventually be forced to do this do maximize their efficiency, and that just doesn’t sound like fun to me.

It could also potentially make competitive games more focused and strategically interesting, if each player is locked in to one merc for the duration of the match. For instance it would add the psychological war of attempting to predict what your opponents will field, to have the right answer to it. Which in turn could incentivise teams to change their set up frequently to become less predictable. Matches would become much more unique, providing shoutcasters much to talk about.

Another thing that could be addressed with such a special mode would be the loadout balance. When asked about loadouts and competitive play on a recent stream, Shoe mentioned the possibility of a pro mode, where you would choose from a pre-defined set of loadouts. So at the start of the game you choose your merc, then select from a number of preselected Bronze layouts. If you have the Silver or Gold versions of the same loadout, it could let you play with those custom skins instead, so there’d still be a point in collecting loadouts even for competitive play. Which loadouts are available for competitive play could change occasionally based on balance and player requests.

This mode could be forced for scrims and ranked matchmaking, or it could be optional, so players can graduate towards it as they become experienced enough to handle it (e.g. not screw themselves over with bad team composition).

I really like the thought of that, what do you think?


(BioSnark) #2

If there were a pro mode, I’d say the two things it needs is friendly fire and team player collision.


(Zenity) #3

I just take those as a given for any sort of competitive play… This post was more specifically about discussing one merc per player. That’s a pretty big difference to standard mode (also in terms of UI), but I think it would make a lot of sense.


(tangoliber) #4

As a spectator, I would rather watch a competitive game where each player was restricted to one merc. It would make the tactics much more interesting. Especially if you have a draft mode. I’d like to see teams stuck with using one team composition for the entire match.

(Or maybe you could have limited merc changes… such as each player can switch twice?)


(Szakalot) #5

[QUOTE=tangoliber;525504]As a spectator, I would rather watch a competitive game where each player was restricted to one merc. It would make the tactics much more interesting. Especially if you have a draft mode. I’d like to see teams stuck with using one team composition for the entire match.
[/QUOTE]

Exatly this +111

With one merc type per team it would make the game easier to watch: oh that player is the fragger, and this is his medic support. That guy is the sniper, etc.

I also think such a setup will make strats more interesting, by forcing people to diversify; rather than picking the most OP mercs in the meta.

Even if 4 assualt mercs are available, they will all have different abilities; so I don’t see that as a problem.


(Zenity) #6

[QUOTE=Szakalot;525515]Exatly this +111

With one merc type per team it would make the game easier to watch: oh that player is the fragger, and this is his medic support. That guy is the sniper, etc.

I also think such a setup will make strats more interesting, by forcing people to diversify; rather than picking the most OP mercs in the meta.

Even if 4 assualt mercs are available, they will all have different abilities; so I don’t see that as a problem.[/QUOTE]

Yeah it’s not necessarily a problem. More of a theoretical future problem in case there are many mercs which are too similar. So perhaps a class limit is not needed and it can be kept simple.

So just one merc per player. Choose one loadout. Stick with it for the duration of the match. Simple but lots of benefits.

Another way would be that each merc has three loadouts in this mode, and players can switch between those during the game like they can switch between mercs in normal mode. This would simplify it even more to only selecting a merc at the start of the game.


(fubar) #7

For competitive matches it shouldn’t be necessary, because teams should be able to pick a sensible selection from the start.

It’s the other way around entirely. There are some classes that get the job done better than others, forcing a player or team onto a specific set of 5 mercs as opposed to giving them freedom in their selection based on map/stage/composition/opponent/situation is utter nonsense.

It would also sidestep “exploits” like switching mercs to optimise ability cooldowns. I’m not saying this is cheating, but I expect that top teams would eventually be forced to do this do maximize their efficiency, and that just doesn’t sound like fun to me.

Cooldowns don’t tick while playing another merc. ie Skyhammer’s airstrike doesn’t refresh while you’re playing Fragger and vice versa.
Also, the above is a skill. Being efficient at the game and choosing your class dependent on situation, reading the game well enough to know when to switch and seeing an opening for you to pick/remain said class or to reset the ability is a skill.

It could also potentially make competitive games more focused and strategically interesting, if each player is locked in to one merc for the duration of the match. For instance it would add the psychological war of attempting to predict what your opponents will field, to have the right answer to it. Which in turn could incentivise teams to change their set up frequently to become less predictable. Matches would become much more unique, providing shoutcasters much to talk about.

Considering we see what they pick and go with… No. I don’t see the necessity of wanting to lock players onto a merc. Everything you’ve been suggesting so far, to me, is a further step into “dumbing” down the game to make it more friendlier towards casual as opposed to actually trying to make it truly competitive. Aside from that, there are too many random factors influencing the game that you’re constantly adapting to… well, everything. Spawntime, spawnpoints, gameflow, compositions, pressure, maps, stages, etc. That would never support a “1 merc” rule.

Also, the argument of it making it more “interesting” from an outside view is… stupid, really. If anything it makes it less interesting, 9 out of 10 viewers simply don’t understand the game or what is happening in a match at any given time. Letting the viewer decide what’s interesting or not is comical at best. Look at CS:GO twitch chats, or even just listen to the casters of any popular game (LoL, Dota, CS, whichever) the majority of which have genuinely no idea what the hell they’re talking about. If you’ve ever played on a level of above average skills in any of the above games you’d notice these in a heartbeat just as well. Hell, ET and RtCW Casters are the worst. They try hard, really hard to keep track of the game but they don’t understand the simplest core mechanics involved, which doesn’t make it less interesting to watch, it merely makes you angry having to listen to the delusional bullcrap they’re spouting and seeing that people on their chats actually believe it to be true/correct because they themselves seem to have even less of a grasp of the situation.

You’re essentially suggesting to remove any and all creative freedom from the game as well as eliminating multitasking to it’s minimum, in which world does that ever make it more interesting? If anything it’s dulling it down. I grant you, a ban/pick system or team composition can be of interest (see LoL/Dota) but those are different type of games in their entirety, none of which even applies here. There are no “counters” there are no 20 minute long 1v1 lanes, there is no 40min grind of item farming (see, items? Yeah… Big big issue here.) that all lead up to one big fight or series of big fights. FPS games can’t ever be compared to a moba or rpg or rts or anything, it’s its own genre and I’d wish people would stop trying so hard to find similarities and compare them.

With that being said: The game in its current stage will absolutely need a promod if it wants a stable, semi-succesful competitive scene. However, I disagree with nearly all of your suggestions and would hope not to ever see any of those implemented in such.


(Ceres) #8

“you have to choose one fixed merc in competitive play”

I hope not. That will be the end of competitive play. No game has/ does that. Even in CS you can drop weapons and your AWP-er can be your rifler.

All that will do is make competitive games boring as hell since if you picked the wrong comp, you will lose the game from the get go.


(Szakalot) #9

‘utter nonsense’ is not an argument. : )

Sure there is skill in being able to adapt the class to the particular situation, changing it on the fly. But there is ALSO skill in choosing 5 mercs from start that will be most optimal for the whole map. ‘we have this great rhino strategy for this obj, but can we try to employ it without sacrificing our ability to fight in the next obj?’.

Having trade-offs can be more interesting, both to play and watch. It will also make teams more unique in that a particular team is more likely to sport a specific combo, etc.

Of course there is a risk of people just pooling into whatever the most all-rounded mercs are. Guess we will have to try both approaches and see which one suits the game the best. But it could very well be that Execution will become the most popular comp mod in DB.


(Zenity) #10

[QUOTE=Ceres;525519]“you have to choose one fixed merc in competitive play”

I hope not. That will be the end of competitive play. No game has/ does that. Even in CS you can drop weapons and your AWP-er can be your rifler.[/quote]

Such hyperbole. :slight_smile: It has pros and cons. I didn’t like the idea at first, but it has grown on me. I just feel like the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. If it was tried and turned out to be awful, it could still be changed back. No drama.

“Other games don’t do it” is unimportant, we are treading some new ground here. And mostly other games haven’t done it because there was simply no reason to. This is different now, and we can discuss the pros and cons.

All that will do is make competitive games boring as hell since if you picked the wrong comp, you will lose the game from the get go.

That can be a pro or a con. Making the right choices will be important, and it can create unique situations and challenges which simply wouldn’t happen if you could adjust on the fly during the game.

One criticism I see repeated a lot is that matches are too samey. This would be one way of making them less samey.


(Humbugsen) #11

Agree that there needs to be some kind of limitation to make the rock,paper,scissors stuff work.

My idea would be that you can only take 3 (or 2) mercs of the same archetype (engineers only, medics only etc.), so that everyone has a fix role for 1 match. Would prefer 2 actually, so you could take 1 for defense and 1 for offense for example

The problem i see with the idea in op is that some matches could be pointless to play because the enemy team counters your team totally. A drafting mode could prevent this, but I don’t like to be forced to take a certain merc, thats also why I’m against paper/scissors/rock in general


(Anti) #12

This debate is good, keep it going :slight_smile:


#13

Still a pain in the butt to get the perfect card you want (augments + gun you want)?

If someone ask “but why is it like this? why cant we choose our stuff?” I have no answer.

For a pro mode, it would be nice to dismiss cards, and be able to just choose from what could have popped up in cards (so still not getting anything not possible, so just removing the frustration of random cards)

ROF, accuracy etc, is playstyle so it matters in a pro mode more.


(SDStyLeZ) #14

I’d like to see a Draftmode with a 1-2-2-2-2-1 System.
The Captain (highest MMR or choosen in 5 stack teams) picks the lineup of the whole team.
After picking the players choose the merc they want to play.
Similar to some MOBAs without bans.

Furthermore Collisions and Teamattack are essential for such mode


(Ceres) #15

I really can’t argue your points if you haven’t played ET competitively (maybe ET:QW and RTCW too, haven’t played them enough to know). Limiting everything to 3 mercs is already too much. Limiting to 1 merc will be the end. The main point of all those games (RTCW, ET, QW, DB) is that you can pick from a vast number (not in DB so far) of mercs/classes to alter your strategy (on the fly) to your liking. You can use the strengths of each class/merc, switch around when needed and exploit the weaknesses of the mercs/classes the enemy picked. Limiting to 1 merc will remove all kinds of strategy and the game will be all about running around and shooting. Good enough for pubs but a definite competition killer.

There are no pros here. Only cons. The only pro, if you can call it that, is that teams will need a very capable person of drafting team comps for them. However, this is not LoL. Everything shouldn’t revolve around what team comp you picked. It should be about how well you adapt throughout the game.

Imagine if you bought an AK47 in CS and you were unable to pick up an AWP (or any other non rifle weapon) off the ground for your team at the end of the round. That’s the equivalent to DB since there are no classes/mercs in CS, only difference is what weapons you buy. I can just see Titan players quitting the game since they can’t pick up/buy AWPs for kennyS if he doesn’t have the money.

Imagine attacking Radar in Enemy Territory. The usual split is rifle nade, smg eng, 4 medics (maybe a soldier off the start) to get the Command Post built. After that, people switch around and the rifle nade is no longer needed. If there were class restrictions, teams would have to play out the entire map with a useless rifle nade basically making the game 5v6.

Such limitations are only good if you want to punish the game play and make the entire map/game completely boring. No offense intended here, but I believe such suggestions come from the fact that people haven’t competed in games that require a lot of teamwork and merc/class dependency.

Oh, on the note that if it doesn’t work it will be changed back. That will never happen. You can see how long it takes to fix a few minor bugs (most are still in the game ever since 2013). I am more inclined to believe that the next few changes will pretty much shape the game and that will be it.


(Humbugsen) #16

[QUOTE=Ceres;525537]I really can’t argue your points if you haven’t played ET competitively (maybe ET:QW and RTCW too, haven’t played them enough to know). Limiting everything to 3 mercs is already too much. Limiting to 1 merc will be the end. The main point of all those games (RTCW, ET, QW, DB) is that you can pick from a vast number (not in DB so far) of mercs/classes to alter your strategy (on the fly) to your liking. You can use the strengths of each class/merc, switch around when needed and exploit the weaknesses of the mercs/classes the enemy picked. Limiting to 1 merc will remove all kinds of strategy and the game will be all about running around and shooting. Good enough for pubs but a definite competition killer.

There are no pros here. Only cons. The only pro, if you can call it that, is that teams will need a very capable person of drafting team comps for them. However, this is not LoL. Everything shouldn’t revolve around what team comp you picked. It should be about how well you adapt throughout the game.

Imagine if you bought an AK47 in CS and you were unable to pick up an AWP (or any other non rifle weapon) off the ground for your team at the end of the round. That’s the equivalent to DB since there are no classes/mercs in CS, only difference is what weapons you buy. I can just see Titan players quitting the game since they can’t pick up/buy AWPs for kennyS if he doesn’t have the money.

Imagine attacking Radar in Enemy Territory. The usual split is rifle nade, smg eng, 4 medics (maybe a soldier off the start) to get the Command Post built. After that, people switch around and the rifle nade is no longer needed. If there were class restrictions, teams would have to play out the entire map with a useless rifle nade basically making the game 5v6.

Such limitations are only good if you want to punish the game play and make the entire map/game completely boring. No offense intended here, but I believe such suggestions come from the fact that people haven’t competed in games that require a lot of teamwork and merc/class dependency.

Oh, on the note that if it doesn’t work it will be changed back. That will never happen. You can see how long it takes to fix a few minor bugs (most are still in the game ever since 2013). I am more inclined to believe that the next few changes will pretty much shape the game and that will be it.[/QUOTE]

In ET you couldn’t take 5soldiers with panzerfausts, or 5engineers with rifle grenades…
also in ET deaths were much more meaningful, because it took way longer to be back into the action (bigger maps, longer respawn, limited sprint etc…)
In DB they will already have switched mercs too, when you think you found a weakness

I think the unlimited sprint is the real problem of this game…
-“reinforcements” take no time, your back to the fight instantly after your respawn

  • everyone is sprinting around the map instead of taking good defensive spots and teamplaying
  • you can rambo in all the time and escape easy, which doesn’t encourage teamplay obviously (by the way i do that all the time, i camp at really bad spots and just run away when it gets bad xD, would NEVER have worked in ET)
    gets even worse because you run faster with the knife

in ET you always had to think twice before using your sprint and it took great skill to use it wisely


(Ceres) #17

Of course you could take 5 engineers (and still can).

Your points are not related to the subject. Yes, there are many problems in this game and unlimited sprint may be one of them, who knows.


(Humbugsen) #18

i edited… you couldn’t take 5 with rifle grenades… at least not in etpro
and 5 engineers would’ve been really bad but it’s not bad in DB
all can go lemming defuse, 20% for everyone, works.
i just started this because you compared it to ET, but ET was an entirely different/better game.
And I think it’s related to the topic, because it’s a topic about competitive/teamplay aspect of the game and i just can’t see this working with those mechanics.
You have to look at the game as a whole and not just compare certain points to other games. Or you get what we currently have: Counter battlefield fortress territory of duty and honor^^


(Szakalot) #19

And what about the current situation? I’m not playing DB comp myself, but it seems generally acknowledged that most people run 2-3 fraggers, a medic or two for support, and maybe one obj class (or skyhammer for EV type of thing). This is definitely ‘no strategy’ and running around and shooting at its core!

The problem in the game comes from multiple classes exploiting a particular advantage. In a 8v8 pub, one airstrike might be balanced, and fine. But 4 airstrikes is constant spammage, with EV type of objectives not going very well for attackers.

There are no pros here. Only cons. The only pro, if you can call it that, is that teams will need a very capable person of drafting team comps for them. However, this is not LoL. Everything shouldn’t revolve around what team comp you picked. It should be about how well you adapt throughout the game.

Can you specify some cons? To me it seems that being fixed with 5 mercs might very well focus you to adapt. Say you run Aura + Fragger combo on defense for one flank, and Stoker Sawbonez for another choke. Your opponents figured it out and are spamming your aura’s station + slow fragger with Nader so fragger dies without heal, and aura shortly after. You could very well try to adapt and switch the Sawbonez with Aura around so that faster (than fragger) Stoker can dodge the nades better, and Fragger doesn’t really on a destructible deployable for heals.

Imagine if you bought an AK47 in CS and you were unable to pick up an AWP (or any other non rifle weapon) off the ground for your team at the end of the round. That’s the equivalent to DB since there are no classes/mercs in CS, only difference is what weapons you buy. I can just see Titan players quitting the game since they can’t pick up/buy AWPs for kennyS if he doesn’t have the money.

what does this have to do with anything? I don’t see how CS gamestyle transfers to DB at all.

Imagine attacking Radar in Enemy Territory. The usual split is rifle nade, smg eng, 4 medics (maybe a soldier off the start) to get the Command Post built. After that, people switch around and the rifle nade is no longer needed. If there were class restrictions, teams would have to play out the entire map with a useless rifle nade basically making the game 5v6.

And now people are faced with a choice: do we pick rifle nade to make getting CP easier, or do we skip it and try to get CP without the nade, to have advantage in the next stage. This could result in a whole layer of strategy already at a drafting level, definitely making the game more e-sport friendly; and possibly more fun.

The sweet spot would require very tight balance of mercs which atm seems not impossible, as long as Fragger gets a nerf : P

I definitely acknowledge the risk that forcing 1 merc per player will result in a simplified meta, where people pick the most all-rounded mercs cause taking that rhino is too niche to make him work on other stages of the map; sort of like supply depot flamethrower (no one would ever pick it just to use it at the gold staircase stage)


(fubar) #20

[QUOTE=Humbugsen;525538]In ET you couldn’t take 5soldiers with panzerfausts, or 5engineers with rifle grenades…
also in ET deaths were much more meaningful, because it took way longer to be back into the action (bigger maps, longer respawn, limited sprint etc…)
In DB they will already have switched mercs too, when you think you found a weakness

I think the unlimited sprint is the real problem of this game…
-“reinforcements” take no time, your back to the fight instantly after your respawn

  • everyone is sprinting around the map instead of taking good defensive spots and teamplaying
  • you can rambo in all the time and escape easy, which doesn’t encourage teamplay obviously (by the way i do that all the time, i camp at really bad spots and just run away when it gets bad xD, would NEVER have worked in ET)
    gets even worse because you run faster with the knife

in ET you always had to think twice before using your sprint and it took great skill to use it wisely[/QUOTE]

Here we go.

You actually can take 5 PF’s or rifles or other things. It’s merely a CONFIG setting, not ETPro. It’s the SERVER config (read clanbase/ESL config) that doesn’t allow you to. Either way. We’re talking heavy weapons here. Rifle Grenades and Panzerfausts, not a guy with two grenades…

-“reinforcements” take no time, your back to the fight instantly after your respawn

false. Majority of maps, excluding ice, frost and beach, are of 20 second attack spawn for allies. That’s 4 seconds less than in DirtyBomb, additionally the objectives are much tighter together and are reached far far sooner with strafe jumping. In DB I spend 15 to 20 seconds running the attack route before I see my first opponents.

  • everyone is sprinting around the map instead of taking good defensive spots and teamplaying

… What? Please stop confusing public games to people actually trying to play as a team.

  • you can rambo in all the time and escape easy, which doesn’t encourage teamplay obviously (by the way i do that all the time, i camp at really bad spots and just run away when it gets bad xD, would NEVER have worked in ET)

It works… all the time? Seriously. Players like razz do this exclusively. He’s known for being that annoying guy that just tries to survive at all times and runs around with medpacks in hands. I genuinely think you never played this game. If anything it’s a lot easier in ET, due to strafing and the fact that you have the same base movement speed as every other class. No auras or proxies to run up to you effortlessly. That and the fact that you get a STATIC 20hp heal per medpack, instantly, as opposed to healing effect being cancelled when shot at.

gets even worse because you run faster with the knife

Agree. Not a huge fan of the “u run faster with the knife”, but it doesn’t hurt the game either, really. considering the very short gun switches.

in ET you always had to think twice before using your sprint and it took great skill to use it wisely

Yes and no. There’s two type of players. People that use their stamina to get to certain choke points, others save it for duels. To each their own.