Your argument seems to come down to the opinion that switching classes in-game is an essential mechanic, without which the competitive game will be more or less pointless. And you don’t see any merit in the strategies involved in picking your mercs before the match.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree on that. The good news is that it’s easy to play with these rules even without official support for it, so we could try it out in scrims or tournaments and see how most people feel about it.
Szakalot made a good point about this potentially favouring the more “average” mercs. Again this could also be a positive, since keeping the most extreme mercs out of the competitive meta could be desirable. I bet we’d still see them occasionally to throw somebody off-guard, but it would always be an interesting commitment.
You actually can take 5 PF’s or rifles or other things. It’s merely a CONFIG setting, not ETPro. It’s the SERVER config (read clanbase/ESL config) that doesn’t allow you to. Either way. We’re talking heavy weapons here. Rifle Grenades and Panzerfausts, not a guy with two grenades… [/QUOTE]
i know and every server limited it. Fraggers grenades are better than every panzerfaust and rifle together, you heard the panzerfaust and could even kill the guy before shooting, rifle was dodgeable in most cases. Grenades were strong in et too, but everyone had them and they didn’t refill over time
[QUOTE=fubar;525543]
false. Majority of maps, excluding ice, frost and beach, are of 20 second attack spawn for allies. That’s 4 seconds less than in DirtyBomb, additionally the objectives are much tighter together and are reached far far sooner with strafe jumping. In DB I spend 15 to 20 seconds running the attack route before I see my first opponents.[/QUOTE]
this is because et maps favored axis in most cases and axis defended around their spawnpoint while allies had to walk. Also you could miss your spawn, when hoping for a medic or just tapping out too late.
[QUOTE=fubar;525543]
… What? Please stop confusing public games to people actually trying to play as a team.[/QUOTE]
the game encourages this playstyle I’m not confusing anything.
[QUOTE=fubar;525543]
It works… all the time? Seriously. Players like razz do this exclusively. He’s known for being that annoying guy that just tries to survive at all times and runs around with medpacks in hands. I genuinely think you never played this game. [/QUOTE]
it works really often watch this for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezWqZt1Kbfo thats not me but i play similar sometimes xD, this video is actually a perfect example, he wins, he ends up first in the scoreboard and they won this because of him, but he did ZERO teamplay.
[QUOTE=fubar;525543]
Yes and no. There’s two type of players. People that use their stamina to get to certain choke points, others save it for duels. To each their own.[/QUOTE]
maybe i did it wrong but i combined those possibilities xD…
OMG i just read about the new gamemode, sounds awesome and seems to solve some of my problems with the game, but could also be a bad workaround
[QUOTE=Szakalot;525542]And what about the current situation? I’m not playing DB comp myself, but it seems generally acknowledged that most people run 2-3 fraggers, a medic or two for support, and maybe one obj class (or skyhammer for EV type of thing). This is definitely ‘no strategy’ and running around and shooting at its core!
The problem in the game comes from multiple classes exploiting a particular advantage. In a 8v8 pub, one airstrike might be balanced, and fine. But 4 airstrikes is constant spammage, with EV type of objectives not going very well for attackers.[/QUOTE]
We are talking about limiting players to 1 merc. Has nothing to do with 2-3 fraggers and everything else you mentioned. If people are limited to 1 merc, they can still choose to run 3 fraggers and 2 meds as you pointed out. I don’t understand your point.
The rest is for PUB play and this discussion is for a PRO mod. I don’t think it’s relevant to the discussion.
The only con I really HAVE to mention is: limitation. No game should ever want and strive to do that. It works for League because it would not be possible for people to switch out champions during the game but that’s a completely different game.
The limitation doesn’t force you to adapt. It forces you to accept that you are stuck and that’s about it. For that particular example, why do you have to do that? Don’t you think it will be better for the players, SD, and the viewers for one of the teams to pull out a Vasilii, Arty, or any other merc and completely change the gameplay? I know I would love to see that rather than watch the same rushes/defenses over and over again until people get bored and eventually move on to other games.
[QUOTE=Szakalot;525542]
what does this have to do with anything? I don’t see how CS gamestyle transfers to DB at all.[/QUOTE]
The gamestyle doesn’t transfer, of course. I am just showing you what such a limitation would do to CS. It’s stupid, right? That’s just how stupid it looks right now for DB as well.
It’s weird that you think that way then. Not being able to switch classes will not make the game pointless, just slow, boring, and eventually it will die. People are getting bored now, I can see what it will be when they can only play 1 merc.
I can’t ever see how banning people from switching classes would have worked in ET. What name did you use in ET btw?
Sounds interesting I think they should add to this mode, or create a harcore mode where guns do realistic damage like 4x there current ammount, and friendly fire is active.
NOT a 1 merc for whole map, but 1 merc attacker, 1 merc defender (you can get new merc at mid-game) very important because attack/defend requires different mercs
FF on
Collision on
Forced respawn (no space bar to respawn)
ALL mercs available
Predefined loadout cards that everyone can choose, even if you don’t own them
As long as I can see one tournament play out like this, I’ll be satisfied. I just want to see what will happen.
5v5, 1 merc each, merc can’t be used on both teams… drafting and banning:
Team A bans Fragger
Team B bans Aura
Team A chooses Nader
Team B chooses Proxy
Team A chooses Bushwhacker
Team B chooses Rhino
Team A chooses Sawbonez
Team B chooses Phoenix
Team A chooses Thunder
Team B chooses Kira
Team A chooses Vasilli
Team B chooses Aimee
So:
Nader, Bushwhacker, Sawbonez, Thunder, Vasilli
vs
Proxy, Rhino, Phoenix, Kira, Aimee
What happens? I don’t enjoy watching MOBAs, but this would be fun to watch… Teams re-pick on the next map.
ehh… in my mind nobody here was talking about prohibiting merc selection but not limiting the amount of unique mercs used. I was talking exclusively about the idea that only one merc type/team is available to the players - combined with mercs not being able to switch mid-round (fine with me to have attack specific and defence specific).
I can definitely see how what you thought about it is limiting, yeah that would be pretty dumb.
However a situation where each player on each team has to pick a different merc, and stick out with that merc for the whole attack/defence phase is something else entirely right? So I’ll just leave it at that.
The gamestyle doesn’t transfer, of course. I am just showing you what such a limitation would do to CS. It’s stupid, right? That’s just how stupid it looks right now for DB as well.
[QUOTE=tangoliber;525567]As long as I can see one tournament play out like this, I’ll be satisfied. I just want to see what will happen.
5v5, 1 merc each, merc can’t be used on both teams… drafting and banning:
Team A bans Fragger
Team B bans Aura
Team A chooses Nader
Team B chooses Proxy
Team A chooses Bushwhacker
Team B chooses Rhino
Team A chooses Sawbonez
Team B chooses Phoenix
Team A chooses Thunder
Team B chooses Kira
Team A chooses Vasilli
Team B chooses Aimee
So:
Nader, Bushwhacker, Sawbonez, Thunder, Vasilli
vs
Proxy, Rhino, Phoenix, Kira, Aimee
What happens? I don’t enjoy watching MOBAs, but this would be fun to watch… Teams re-pick on the next map.[/QUOTE]
I think this is definitely worth a try, but personally I wouldn’t mind a format where mercs can be mirrored between teams (so each team makes her own selection).
I think we need more mercs (than the currently viable 15) for the mode you describe to work.
[QUOTE=tangoliber;525567]As long as I can see one tournament play out like this, I’ll be satisfied. I just want to see what will happen.
5v5, 1 merc each, merc can’t be used on both teams… drafting and banning:
Team A bans Fragger
Team B bans Aura
Team A chooses Nader
Team B chooses Proxy
Team A chooses Bushwhacker
Team B chooses Rhino
Team A chooses Sawbonez
Team B chooses Phoenix
Team A chooses Thunder
Team B chooses Kira
Team A chooses Vasilli
Team B chooses Aimee
So:
Nader, Bushwhacker, Sawbonez, Thunder, Vasilli
vs
Proxy, Rhino, Phoenix, Kira, Aimee
What happens? I don’t enjoy watching MOBAs, but this would be fun to watch… Teams re-pick on the next map.[/QUOTE]
Dirty Bomb and SW mode in general is very situational. Switching between 3 mercs is already limiting as some others have pointed out.
I am all for an LOL style draft just to test it. I do feel once we have 20+ mercs in the game and Fragger is NOT banned that people will /quit out of the que because their team didnt get first pick! LOL also has this prob already so maybe if there are 20+ mercs Fragger might not seem OP.
[QUOTE=ToonBE;525566]- SW mode
NOT a 1 merc for whole map, but 1 merc attacker, 1 merc defender (you can get new merc at mid-game) very important because attack/defend requires different mercs
FF on
Collision on
Forced respawn (no space bar to respawn)
ALL mercs available
Predefined loadout cards that everyone can choose, even if you don’t own them
let community create skins (you cannot do this on your own!! let the players in on making content)
let community make maps
dedicated servers
.[/QUOTE]
I like all of Toon’s Idea’s with maybe a few twits.
Having one merc attacking and One defending is a sweet idea but you are still limited to one merc.
All mercs available I do not like
Predefined loadouts should already be in the game. AKA picking your own perks. Sort of like Runes and Mys in LOL.
Can’t pick mercs already picked by the opponent team
The five selected mercs will be your respawn options.
Instead of 3 mercs you get 5 mercs.
You can get them in any combination and in any amount.
There you go. This works because the early draft is already the rock-paper-scissors game you’re playing. Every merc you have is one they won’t have and vice versa. Both teams will know what they’re up against (and rule out tons of possibilities at the same time). Yet there will be more diversity and fluidity within the maps.
You still only bring one merc to the fight but you get to share in your team’s choices.
You could in theory put a limit on the mercs you’ve unlocked but that’s f2p grind protocol. A pro-team is expected to be hardcore enough to have all their choices grinded out by then. Either way, don’t let this caveat get in the way of the idea itself.
And to top it all off, having a draft session up front is vitally important to build team-cohesion, discuss tactics and make the game in general more meaningful.
And to top the top off, maybe the whole thing is better for Execution mode. I kind of can see the mode becoming more popular than the original.
A full-blown draft is another step further I guess. It could be interesting, but I would leave that discussion for when there are considerably more mercs in the game.
The TL/DR of the OP:
The main point is to limit mercs to one each per team.
Limiting players to one merc for the round is mainly to make the unique merc limitation more straight-forward, but comes with some other interesting implications.
This ruleset would be super easy to try out in scrims/tournaments (just ensure that players pick a unique merc first, and don’t switch away from it during the game).
It’s up to the teams to decide whether they think this is worth trying. If it catches on, then creating an official mode which facilities this ruleset in the UI would be the next step. If SD things this is a good idea anyway, then of course the mode could come first and it would be even easier to try out.
Of course a huge question mark right now is also the execution mode. Will competition be split between stopwatch / execution? Or will we focus on one or the other? Or will we do it like Call of Duty, where you choose the mode along with your map? There are still a lot of unknowns, but also exciting possibilities ahead.
I skimmed half these posts, so I apologise in advance if someone has already suggested this (half hearted token apology at that):
If you’re looking at 5v5, wouldn’t it be reasonable to consider sticking to the 3 merc rotation, but further restricting a comp match to a specific class per player. So whoever is going to play the medic role, they can load out 3 medics, but medics only. That way no one can cry about about who has the one and only topical hurt machine on their team (ie Fragger at the moment), and still maintains that wild card element of choice and versatility through a match. Or even 3 of the same merc, just different card loadout selections.
I can see this idea being explored anyway on private/clan servers, once people are committed to cooperating under the agreed rules of said server and when the merc roster is more robust.
For those that were in the alpha, I’d point to that covie merc we saw that was unique (from every other merc) in his weapon restriction and special ability as being a good example of how dramatic the differences in choice could be within a single class base for a competitive match. (if you weren’t playing at the time, don’t ask, the various other mercs we played with are still covered by the NDA because they were in rotation when the NDA was fully active)
Whether or not this could be considered a separate sub-game mode/setting worth implementing as a system use-able in pubs is another story. If so, then there would have to be consideration, or at least the ability to choose which classes to double up on with the larger teams, like 7v7.
Seems like people are getting confused between limiting mercs, and how mercs are being selected / dished out.
Personally I think the draft mode would restrict people from specialising in mercs (drop outs in pubs if not their merc), and hamper a team to react to what is happening in the game.
I’m all for restricting the number of certain mercs within a team
I think I have read SD want public to be played the same way that matches will be played.
But why is then SD allowing for 8v8 when matches will be 5v5.
Match making is a pro mode, since it use Skill Rating System “MMR”, Match Making Rating. Its bascily means more wins = Higher MMR
Same way more wins in a cup = Winner
SD needs to stop focusing on public and make Match Making the way to play for 90% of the players.
[QUOTE=JBRAA;525637]I think I have read SD want public to be played the same way that matches will be played.
But why is then SD allowing for 8v8 when matches will be 5v5.
Match making is a pro mode, since it use Skill Rating System “MMR”, Match Making Rating. Its bascily means more wins = Higher MMR
Same way more wins in a cup = Winner
SD needs to stop focusing on public and make Match Making the way to play for 90% of the players.[/QUOTE]
Both are important, and both should play as similarly as possible, but there can be rule changes to focus each on what they intend to do. Casual is the “hop in, hop out” mode, and Competitive is where you commit to a full match.
CS:GO does this perfectly, with a small number of clearly defined differences between Casual and Competitive:
Casual is 10v10, while Competitive is 5v5
Competitive requires a full commitment, has penalties for dropping out, and teams are balanced based on ratings.
Casual provides armor and defuse kits to everyone, so there is less complexity in the buying system.
Friendly fire and team collisions are on in Competitive, but off in Casual.
Casual let’s you spectate enemy players while dead, but not talk to living players while dead. Competitive is the opposite.
The game essentially is the same between Casual and Competitive (i.e. no weapons behaving differently or anything like that), but the rule changes make each mode perfectly suited for its purpose. I hope and expect that SD will go the same route with Dirty Bomb.
I’m all for having almost no limits, like you guys said, creative freedom and a window for more variations. Hell, most of us know the full 6 engi charge on goldrush in a desperate repair attempt, rushing in with pliers in hand :D. And the game should allow you to do that, viable stuff if you ask me. Certain combinations can be effective in some situations, even more if the enemy is not expecting such a setup.
The problem in DB is that, at the moment, there is more or less a cookie cutter setup that is superior to everything else. I also believe this is enhanced due to the fact that all mercs are able to do all objectives, so there is not really a need to have one guy play, lets say a dedicated engi, or have a cvops in the lineup for quick destory or hack side objectives for example.
I gave it some thought on how the “pro” format should work, but it’s hard to have a working system right now due to the balance issues that several of us already brought up and we still have little idea how the game will function when other mercs are thrown into the mix. Though I do find the single merc per player interesting in a way, I’m against such a model because I find it too limiting to the player and the team. Teams should be able to adept to map conditions on the fly, makes for a more interesting game both to play and watch.
Still, due to the fact there will be a wide selection of mercs, I’d like to see a merc limit od 1 at any given time. So if you want more medics, fops or any other class, you’ll just have to make most of the different abilities they offer. That could also help a bit with ability spam because right now with 3 fraggers, there is enough nades to wipe out the entire enemy team and still have one extra.
So what you mean is e.g. if somebody is spawned in as a Fragger, you cannot spawn in as a second Fragger? My concern with that is just that it could get terribly confusing. And what if both are about to spawn and have selected Fragger? Sure it’s possible to make it work, but can you think of a way to make this work that is also elegant? It would be easier if you’d force each player to choose three unique mercs, but that is not realistic without a LOT more mercs.
It also brings back the cooldown thing. Even if cooldowns don’t continue passively, you could still benefit from “hot swapping” mercs between players to start with a fresh cooldown. While making maximum use of such peculiarities is obviously a skill, this just doesn’t seem like something that is really fun to deal with to me. Not to mention that it could be rather confusing for spectators (“and there’s flusha as Fragger. Sorry, JW is the Fragger now. No wait that was two minutes ago, this is actually pronax!”).
Of course it could also be that “hot swapping” is not worth the bother and no team would actually do it, then this would be a non-issue. Just things to find out.
[QUOTE=LiNkzr;525635]Competitive definitely needs to be different from the current one. I can’t seeing anyone playing this game comp if certain things stay.
Perks needs to be removed (either default or separate weapons) I think this was mentioned
We need more mercs, Limiting mercs is just temporary solution.
FF, Team collision.
Forced respawn
I think these were mentioned but might as well say it again.[/QUOTE]
It has been said, a lot of times by a lot of people. I recently listed it in my topic as well, http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/43535-Closed-Beta-impression-from-a-competitive-view but whenever any of these points come up the dev’s magically disappear from their own forums and wait till the topic cooled down before they come back to post in way less relevant topics
It also brings back the cooldown thing. Even if cooldowns don’t continue passively, you could still benefit from “hot swapping” mercs between players to start with a fresh cooldown. While making maximum use of such peculiarities is obviously a skill, this just doesn’t seem like something that is really fun to deal with to me. Not to mention that it could be rather confusing for spectators (“and there’s flusha as Fragger. Sorry, JW is the Fragger now. No wait that was two minutes ago, this is actually pronax!”).
Of course it could also be that “hot swapping” is not worth the bother and no team would actually do it, then this would be a non-issue. Just things to find out.
Sorry what? This is the equivalent to passing the ball. Do you genuinely want to see an entire match played with a single player being in possession and any at all times?
It’s being done already, a lot more than you’d think. It’s needed even given how the objective works in this game and the fact that every class is able to perform such. Also because of bad map design, but that’s an entirely different story.
Seriously though… In what world is it more interesting watching a team of 5 players pick 5 fixed mercs in anticipation to the 5 other fixed mercs of the 5 other players, than watching 5 players coordinate, use and play around with their 15 mercs against the other team’s 15 loadouts? So much more thought, strategy, skill, anticipation, multitasking, quick thinking, whatever other synonyms you want to add go into that.
Especially because it allows the smarter, not so gun heavy players, to shine as well, not only a team coordination issue, imagine the clowns, toxic and nights without multiclassing and having to rely on their pathetic shooting? Whenever did FPS comp turn into a DM server?
Give players creative freedom and you’ll see plays, compositions and strategies you’d never see elsewhere. You want the meta to change? You already achieved as much by continuously supporting the game, updating it and introducing new mercs. The gameplay is FORCED to change and players are forced to adapt anew every time. There’s absolutely no need in implementing a single merc rule. If mercs are OP and heavily favored that’s a balancing and map issue and not something WE players should have to be punished with by locking us out from playing the game as it’s supposed to be played.
