Please nerf slashkill

(fluffykitten) #101

I used the /kill thing in anger for the first time last night, was stuck on one of those fuel dump games where the axis airstrike the allied spawn to crap non stop. We had 0 field ops, so I switched to at least give the axis on the hill something to think about, being a 0 star field ops the recharge was sooo slow so I did the /kill thing. It felt a bit cheap, but not much cheaper than the axis airstrike spam. Making kill take away a few xp wouldn’t have made a difference tbh, I mean on no! I lose 10 xp but manage to create a few pauses in the constant striking and sniping to at least allow the team to get out of spawncamp hell.

I’ve yet to see anyone /kill mid fight either, nor thought about doing it myself.

([B]Repoman) #102

Cross-posting discussion

http://www.forumplanet.com/planetwolfenstein/topic.asp?fid=6127&tid=1080443

(bani) #103

demos demos demos.

let’s see them.

fwiw there are faster ways of gaining XP than killing the other team:

  1. handing out medpacks
  2. reviving
  3. handing out ammopacks
  4. stealing uniforms

If they want to /kill then fine by me, it means its that much easier for me to steal their uniform without wasting ammo :smiley:

(bani) #104

here’s a way to “fix” /kill that should make everyone happy <3 <3 <3

if someone does a /kill then it counts as a kill for the person who last shot them (except if it was a teammate)

there. now you can whore your precious battle sense XP, while i continue to pwn you.

([B]Visa) #105

My posts have never been hysterically worded like that. I’m just telling you what I’ve seen happen on occasion (yes only 2 occasions thus far).

In reply to someone else, when these guys /killed in the firefight it was after they had taken heavy damage and were outnumbered and were almost assuredly going to be killed by us. It’s not like they /kill when they see an enemy player in the chance that we might have killed em.

Ike-T

(bani) #106

in other words they were going to lose the round anyway, regardless of how many times they /kill’ed themselves.

(Coolhand) #107

Why do you keep whittering on about wanting to see demos?

Demos of people using /kill will not do anything to further this discussion. Several reasons have been given why /kill has no place in ET, yet your only response is to keep asking for “demos”, as though this is the only way to prove that there is any kind of problem.

If you can’t give a rational response to the arguments raised, just let it drop, “mmmkay”?

(duke'ku) #108

demos are the only way to prove this is a problem. i have yet to see it.

where are the demos? where is the proof?

oh, thats right, you have none.

(FstFngrz) #109

Before these “cry wolf” posts, I have heard one (1) person complain about /kill in rtcw/et. (it was 6 months or so ago and lets just say I Play A LOT )
A guy with a panzer would shoot a guy that was know to keep the stats on that server, then he would kill himself before the stats holder could kill him. lmao. OK I’m sure it wasn’t funny when and to it was happening to. All these big giant stories of how the worlds gonna end cause someone did a /kill. Come on, that person was bored of that in a few hrs at most and on his way. ( a kick helped i think :slight_smile: , mainly to restore the staticians pride) Come on how fun can it be to run into action, shoot someone, kill yourself and then start back at the beginning of the map

Well do ya think the guy who has to start back at spawn is gonna win the game? NO - THINK ABOUT IT

The person who did the /kill is not in the action anymore, he’s back at spawn and has to run back to the action, doesnt sound to productive to me, ya cant win the game if you are at spawn, even if you are MR. XP. I find I do /kill if i need to get ammo when in a team with no fieldops or ammo stingy ones, i have found if ya /kill in front of most Fieldops, they get the picture “DROP AMMO”, or your soldier, medic ect is out of action, hes back at spawn.

So Next it’ll be Hey I was gonna shoot that guy but he jumped off the roof and died. whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Leave /kill it the way it is.

IF it is a true problem lets see the DEMO,

otherwise I treat it the same as the person saying “he” cheats but has no demo i.e. a waste of time and almost always wrong.

( well if the same guy will never let ya kill him because of /kill, MOVE or he will hurt your pride again, but he sure ain’t gonna win the game)

(HellToupee) #110

do u not understand the xp system, u have 3 types of XP u can hand out a million med packs and not advance in light weapons, advances in light weapons give u a large advantage over a lvl0 light weapons u reload much faster u have more ammo you shoot better and you get akimbo pistols, if one team can deny the other team of those skills they are earned by kills, i noticed when people stole my kills i got no xp other than battle sense which came later, they will be able to dominate the smg fights. /kill shouldnt be an option in any situation other than stuck in the map we should also get some variables that could be set by the server, tweaking /kill shouldnt harm anyone or change the game other than reinforce the way its meant to be played and elimanate possiblilties of exploits before they are abused there is no valid reason to say why it should not be tweaked it being a useful feature is a valid reason for it to be tweaked.

(Dawg) #111

I think this discussion can be summed up pretty simply. On one side you have people that believe that “/kill is an exploit that allows one team to restrict the other team’s access to XP.” On the other side are people who say, “So what? It has not demonstrated itself to be a significant problem worth making a change to the game.”

/kill existed in RtCW and did not seem to create all manner of problems. Yes, XP complicates the issue, but not that much. A few XP here and there is not going to break the game.

Do I think it would be more fair to dock a player a few XP for using /kill? Maybe. But maybe is not yes. If the game designers were to make the change, I would not be upset. Likewise, if they do not make such a change, I would not be upset either.

Dawg

(HellToupee) #112

the /kill defenders have not stated they need /kill and even that no /kill wont affect them, for those reasons i think it would be good to tweak /kill, that way the /kill defenders who havnt stated they need it or would be disadvantaged in anyway are unchanged and those who exploit it are stopped and the ones that dont like /kil are happy its a win win situation.

(bani) #113

if nobody can post a demo then /kill obviously is not a problem and shouldn’t be changed.

(HellToupee) #114

if nobody can argue why it shouldnt be changed then why shouldnt it, did people ask for a demo of mpitch as a problem for it to be changed.

(kotkis) #115

I like /kill. For me it’s important part of the game, I use it always when playing (for airstrike-spam, for ammo, for a better spawn) and I’ve also been killing my self in the middle of a firefight when the next respawn was close and I was going to lose that fight. I really don’t care about the stats, on public I just like to kill and help my team, on clan wars I ofcourse try to deny every XP from the opponent team if I just can. I think it shouldn’t be removed from the game. It isn’t easy to estimate are you going to survive from a firefight or not and is it worth to do /kill, it requires skill and makes the game richer.

(Freedom[]Tickler) #116

Id rather conecentrate on winning a map as quickly as possible, and gold rush is the only map that cannot be won w/in first few minutes of game. XP points are convenient, but I find alot of players DMing everytime they encounter an enemy. Players just stop n fight at first sight.

As a matter of policy, I BYPASS E and keep heading for objective. Im often able to win maps w/in minutes w/ the help af one or two like minded teammates.

XP matters in games that go the distance. Esp 3 30 min campaign games.

The best way to nerf /kill (which I would like to keep) is to concentrate on winning the map quickly, no one will get many XP if it ends quick.

(Sick Boy) #117

This discussion, as so many, is between those who like the game as pure as possible, no tweaking, no bunnyhopping, no /killing, no nothing ; and those who see it more as a sport and try to play the game as advanced as possible, using everything there is within the rules.

In my opinion, any kind of selfkill should count as a death, as a death is a death. And that would shut up those nasty little ratio-whores who like to spam stats like anyone cares. This both in RTCW and ET.

As for distracting XP points, well like bani said I want to see some proof that this XP-stealing is a real problem. If there was a demo where one clan wins BECAUSE of this tactic, then we’ll need to discuss this.

Remember, when you /kill yourself in combat (on a regular basis) you’re never 100% sure you would have lost that fight if you hadn’t /killed, cause you always need to catch that last bullet and a lot can happen. So in a way, you’re stealing your own XP points. My point being, it’s not all that one-sided as people make it seem. Of course, dodging a panzerfaust this way is pretty one-sided and lame, however skillful :slight_smile:

And killing yourself out of combat, well people who have anything against that obviously have not much RTCW/ET experience, so cannot appreciate how much tactical richness this gives to RTCW/ET. The game is even pretty unplayable without it, as you frequently need to switch spawns as you’re needed somewhere.

(reks) #118

I like the game a lot. I like competitive play. Anything that is in the game and not explicitly restricted by the sanctioning authority (be it a league or a server admin) is fair game. There is nothing wrong with people taking as much advantage of /kill or spawn camping or a million other things that many people don’t like. It is what it is.

That being said, I don’t like some things in this game and I think the game would be better without them. /kill is one of these.

I’d like to see /kill removed. I don’t think it has any place in the game. The main reason I suspect it’s there at all is because you can occasionally get stuck and it’s a good catch all. People have found a lot of uses for it. In most cases, they are using it to get around game mechanics that are in place to specifically limit you from doing something.

If they wanted you to be able to shoot back to back panzers or call arty back to back, there wouldn’t be a power bar. /kill is one way of getting around this limitation. Anything that is used to get around the limitations desgined into the game should be considered abuse. You’re using a feature for something other than it was designed and you’re using it to defeat the limitations built into the game mechanics. This last part is the difference between creativity and abuse.

The counter argument to removing /kill is essentially that there are other ways of getting around the game mechanics. That’s not a justification for /kill. That is an indictment of other actions.

You see, not only do I advocate taking out /kill, I advocate that you sit out for the FULL respawn time EVERY time no matter how you die. I’d also advocate an increased spawn time for suicides in general (nades and panzers). Of course, this change would have to be combined with other changes to work. For example, you might half the spawn times to keep the average time in limbo the same. Sitting in limbo is less fun than playing and game design needs to account for that.

I don’t know why they have people respawning in groups, but if I had to pick a reason I would say to prevent spawn camping. Large groups spawning together face a better chance of breaking out of a camped spawn. This is really a map design flaw. Change the way the maps are designed to protect the spawn area from all attacks and you don’t have this problem.

So really what we have here is the result of tweaking the game to make it work, rather than redesigning it to resolve compounded problems.

I’d like to point out that dropweapon was a wolf feature that didn’t make it into ET because it was abused. Again, my definition of abuse is using a feature to get around the mechanics of the game rather than its original purpose as designed (which is sometimes difficult to know without consulting the developers or knowing the game history). I don’t see why people need to get so protective of /kill. Rather than keeping /kill, we should fix the reasons why you think you need it.

For example, you’re running low on ammo in a firefight, maybe we could have ammo racks at strategic points on the map - oh wait, they did that already. Granted these aren’t always full, but they are a good idea. Besides, running low on ammo in a firefight is a feature! If you don’t have ammo and no field ops, maybe you should check your command map and go find one!

I think these changes and others would make the game more fun for me. You can have your opinion on what makes the game more fun for you. Neither of us is wrong.

I disagree that /kill isn’t a big deal in wolf. It is a big deal. Every good player uses it. If you don’t make the best use of /kill you are at a big disadvantage. Now that ET is here and the misuse of /kill is becoming more blatant and easy to see, the issue as simply resurfaced.

[B] has been scrimming ET for a few weeks now. I think we’ve had 3 or 4 scrims. Only 1 team out of the 4 scrims used /kill during firefights. Since I don’t know them very well, I’m not 100% sure they were doing this to avoid giving us XP. Maybe they just happened to be really close to spawn on all those occasions ;). As an aside, they happened to be quite a bit better than us and gave us a pretty good beating. They probably didn’t need any help, but good players use everything to their advantage.

I don’t have demos because I wasn’t demoing that night and I haven’t seen it since. However, I think it’s clear and easily demonstratable that this is a good tactic. It has no disadvantages. Like everything else that gives a player any edge at all, I’m sure the very best players will eventually adopt /killing during firefights they know they will lose. I suspect they will also nade their corpse as they /kill to prevent covert from stealing it.

Lastly, medic support is not always readily available and gibbing seems to work much better/faster in ET than in wolf. Perhaps the speed at which a corpse gets gibbed is another issue we should take up.

(Majin) #119

Just play with maxlifes enabled and this “cheat” get completly canceled out.

(bani) #120

if you all get your way with nerfing stuff you dont like, ET will be reduced to a bunch of players throwing rotten tomatoes at each other, and nobody dies.

either play on maxlives servers or learn to use the tactic yourself. if you cant adapt then youre not a good player :smiley: