Please fix Client to Client Accuracy aswell as Deathcam!

(Litego) #41

[quote=“activeClip;45568”][quote=“Gi.Am;43564”]@activeClip really what most popular skill based FPS shooter games would that be?

here is an interesting link you might wanna read. Its from a Valve developer who explains different types of lag compensations in use at that time (2001) how they work and what they implemented in Halfife. Every FPS game that is played over the internet has to use lag compensation and they do so since the days of Halflife,Quake and Unreal Tournament.[/quote]

Quake and CS/CSGO was used as latest examples, they are near 99% accurate in what you see is what you get, you rarely ever have conflicting views on the situation unless your watching a low tick demo ect…

Now in Dirty Bomb everything you see is a few hundred ms off time, so when you spectate people it looks like there shots are a meter off target.

Tell me in any way how this is acceptable in a game they intend to bring mass appeal and community inspired competition.[/quote]
It is completely acceptable in a mass appeal title. It is however not acceptable in an esports title where spectating is important.

What you see when spectating is what the server sees before lag compensation is applied. It has nothing to do with hit detection. If they were to turn it off you would have to start shooting ahead on your screen until the crosshair would be on point on server side, which means you’ll be leading your shots by the meter or two you were talking about in the OP.

You can’t just turn down lag compensation, either it’s on or it’s off. Sure you can put a upper limit on it like in QL where you’ll have to start leading your shots above 80ms. But why would they? That’s just ruining the experience for a lot of people. What they should do is allow us to rent our own servers and put ping limits on them. Official servers shouldn’t have ping limits, not everyone has below 100ms in their own region.

I guess an other factor is interpolation, they could adjust that if it’s too bad, or give us a slider like in Battlefield. Personally I’m not a fan of the slider as anyone who doesn’t turn it all the way down is at a straight disadvantage.

(MTLMortis) #42

HAD TO BE DONE…

(activeClip) #43

thank you for everyone who understood my pain and explained things in a much greater detail then i was able to myself.

and anyone who cant tell the difference between 150 ping and 50 probably is low skill level at everything they play and or need glasses, that goes for anyone who actually thinks playing video games intercontinental is a good idea. shout out to you guys though, probably the same people who think 144hz isnt day and night better then 60… but the eye cant see more then blah blah blah

(Amerika) #44

Knowledge > *.

(B_Montiel) #45

[quote=“activeClip;46272”]thank you for everyone who understood my pain and explained things in a much greater detail then i was able to myself.

and anyone who cant tell the difference between 150 ping and 50 probably is low skill level at everything they play and or need glasses, that goes for anyone who actually thinks playing video games intercontinental is a good idea. shout out to you guys though, probably the same people who think 144hz isnt day and night better then 60… but the eye cant see more then blah blah blah[/quote]

Things are not that blatant with pings, anti-lag stuff and tickrate. Hence the pretty constructive discussion we’re trying to have here. I agree to disagree with Amerika, we just expose different opinions. I’m more for ping restrictions that force players to play regionally but may improve the game experience. Amerika, on the other side, wants to keep the game as it is now, with still a very good netcode (actually it is, I’d not be playing DB if it was not), but with some drawbacks I tried to explain.

As I mentionned earlier, that’s probably generated by different habits/expectations. If you see European saying this repeatedly, this might not just be overreacting yells. We do benefit from strong population density in Europe in the sense that servers are relatively close from us and pretty much everyone has a good broadband from the different ISPs. So nowadays, it is common to have a full server below 50 ms consistently. So games gaps generated by lags or this type of things are generally quickly pinpointed. Hence my interrogation in my last post.

To illustrate this, I’ll give you an example on Chivalry. I’ve been playing this game for roughly 1300 hours, most of them competitively on an European scale. At different occasions, we got asked by NA teams to do scrims and pugs. On Europe, servers were running pretty well, and we also had some server renters who gave the opportunity to have servers with great tickrate. In NA, servers were just a big mess compared to what we had at the same time. So when we finally accepted one scrim, we just could not face the American players pings. For us it was just unbearable while on the other side, they were saying “try to cope with it, it is acceptable”…

(Amerika) #46

Did you read any of the rest of my post? I outlined everything pretty well there. Why would you focus on the anecdotal part of the post with more anecdotes?

(B_Montiel) #47

Sorry if you missed my point. I totally understood your point about pings. Here’s the thing. You’re way more tolerant than I am upon netcode. I prefer way more accurate action to happen, even if it forces to have narrow and consistent ping ranges. Dirty Bomb is already full of feature designed to compensate miss-happening due to wide range anti-lag, like kill trading and the new gibbing mechanic we received recently. In a sense, all this rather complicated stuff is here for that. To be honest, the player base is for this way strong enough to be sufficient in the different regions. That’s a sure thing.

So why is the game still compensating for pings over 120/150 ? I’m still waiting a proper answer. And, please, don’t be silly, anti-lag, if set up too wide, still makes a noticeable difference even if all players have decent pings.
And if you’ve been here this far, you perfectly know the subsequent question : Are intercontinental games necessary to dirty bomb ?

(activeClip) #48

[quote=“B. Montiel;46315”][quote=“activeClip;46272”]thank you for everyone who understood my pain and explained things in a much greater detail then i was able to myself.

and anyone who cant tell the difference between 150 ping and 50 probably is low skill level at everything they play and or need glasses, that goes for anyone who actually thinks playing video games intercontinental is a good idea. shout out to you guys though, probably the same people who think 144hz isnt day and night better then 60… but the eye cant see more then blah blah blah[/quote]

Things are not that blatant with pings, anti-lag stuff and tickrate. Hence the pretty constructive discussion we’re trying to have here. I agree to disagree with Amerika, we just expose different opinions. I’m more for ping restrictions that force players to play regionally but may improve the game experience. Amerika, on the other side, wants to keep the game as it is now, with still a very good netcode (actually it is, I’d not be playing DB if it was not), but with some drawbacks I tried to explain.

[/quote]

I don’t know man! Its pretty blatant when you start firing your gun in this game, with Sparks half of the SMG bullets just dont hit at 120 ping (US East) compared to 40 (Europe) which still at 120 it is very playable, but come US West and its 180ms and forget about it. Thats just Sparks too, i can feel a even greater annoyance when playing Arty/Dreiss.

Now if i played more then 3-4 mercs i could probably list from A to Z all the problems that come with it as is.

So if its really not even that good right now then whats the point?

(Gi.Am) #49

Sorry to say activeClip but you are simply not hitting (or suffer packet loss).

The whole point of clientside hitreg (which DB uses) is that when you hit someone on your side (bloodsplatter, hitsounds,hit indicator) you are hitting them. Your PC does the hit calculations and tells the server, Yo I hit that guy tell him (server propably still does a plausible check to prevent cheating, the big concern with clientside hitreg).

The downside is that killtrades and hit behind cover scenarios crop up earlier than they would with server side hitreg.

The pros are that you have zero hitreg delay or situations where you hit someone but the damage doesn’t register. Another advantage is that it puts less load on the server.

Because of that intercontinental (higher ping) play is possible since hitreg delays and server not awarding hits are sooner noticable and happening in every firefight.
Compared to killtrades, only happening in close situations and on top of that while impossible with hitscan weapons mimicking what is possible with projectiles in real life therefore not breaking imersion, and shot behind cover only happening when well cover/walls are around and you jump behind them.

And as Amerika allready pointed out intercontinental matches is a big part of the current tournament matches (I think around 50% of the semi/finals wouldn’t be possible). and also allowes guys like chickenwaffles (from NA) to play in an european team.

(B_Montiel) #50

So ok, intercontinental games seem to you as a very interesting feature. But we should be able to play with AUS guys then, should not we ? You perfectly understand that client side registration and this kind of stuff won’t do anything with 3 tens of a second ping if I try to play on their severs. So, that’s rather stigmatizing for the regions who are geographically left alone. Hence the whole problem. Equity won’t be promoted. If all the big comp games had nothing but to do LAN events for their big tourneys finals, that’s for pure equity between players. Once again, on paper with the things created in this game, intercontinental game seem like a good idea. But on the long run, it is to me a bit delusional. Voices will arise, sooner or later, but a team with less than 40 ms ping and another with 120+ are not treated in the same way by the server. It is impossible.

(Gi.Am) #51

Well sure in a 40 to 150-200+ settings the guy with the lower ping will encounter a larger amount of shot trough the wall situations (compared to the highping guy) . However with traditional compensations you would get the same + hitreg problems (on both sides). There is indeed no fix for those problems at a certain point.

The clientside hitdetection however means that the game doesn’t start to fall apart at 80+ pings for all parties involved. But instead means responsive and level playingfield for similar pings up to 150-200.

Take your australia example. Australia is always at an disadvantage simply because of its geography thats why they have to relay so much on servers that are in australia. However lets say euopeans get a 300-350 ping to australia and vice versa. If they find a server in the middle of that, lets say somewhere in Asia. A european team and an australian team could both duke it out with 150 pings sure both sides would see an increase in killtrades and behind cover death but the increase would be the same for both and more importantly the game stays responsive when it comes to hitting someone.

This example can be seen in several dirtycups matches with NA/EU matchups a westcoast based team and a european team roughly have the same ping on an eastcoast server (both around 150).

Lan comp is ofcourse the best thing to have. Problem is it is also the most costly thing to do. Sure if you are a big Moba title with millions of players, the viewnumbers alone will propably bring in enough sponsor money, to pay for a big lan party event.
But a smaller title might not be able to sustain such tournaments more importantly community based events can’t afford these either way.

(activeClip) #52

[quote=“Gi.Am;46513”]Sorry to say activeClip but you are simply not hitting (or suffer packet loss).

The whole point of clientside hitreg (which DB uses) is that when you hit someone on your side (bloodsplatter, hitsounds,hit indicator) you are hitting them. Your PC does the hit calculations and tells the server, Yo I hit that guy tell him (server propably still does a plausible check to prevent cheating, the big concern with clientside hitreg).

The downside is that killtrades and hit behind cover scenarios crop up earlier than they would with server side hitreg.

The pros are that you have zero hitreg delay or situations where you hit someone but the damage doesn’t register. Another advantage is that it puts less load on the server.

Because of that intercontinental (higher ping) play is possible since hitreg delays and server not awarding hits are sooner noticable and happening in every firefight.
Compared to killtrades, only happening in close situations and on top of that while impossible with hitscan weapons mimicking what is possible with projectiles in real life therefore not breaking imersion, and shot behind cover only happening when well cover/walls are around and you jump behind them.

And as Amerika allready pointed out intercontinental matches is a big part of the current tournament matches (I think around 50% of the semi/finals wouldn’t be possible). and also allowes guys like chickenwaffles (from NA) to play in an european team.[/quote]

if you really think you hit the same with 180ms and 50 then you should play something a bit more competitive and if you cant tell the difference then your either not paying attention or playing at a remotely decent level.

(Ghosthree3) #53

I have played competitively against both EU and US teams in another game. I’ve played in all sorts of ping conditions, trading round for round on home servers, middle ground servers, lopsided middle ground servers, the lot. Honestly no matter the option it just kind of sucks for both teams. It’s not truly enjoyable, and it feels like everyone is just putting up with it for the sake of world wide competition.

I’ve come to the conclusion that until world wide latency is drastically reduced we’re better off left to ourselves and SEA to be honest. Our location sucks massively for online gaming and there’s just nothing we can do about that. This is also totally possible for the game as it is now, I think we had something like 40 teams compete in a recent Aussie only tournament. We’re definitely not lacking internal competition.

It would be great if we could put ourselves to the test and face the rest of the world but it’s just too painful for all involved to try.

(Amerika) #54

B.Montiel,

Exactly how much better do you think your 40ping vs. 40ping games will be if antilag was tightened? Do you believe, and please cite your logic and the technology behind it, that things will get better in those situations for your games? If so, how?

Or are we talking about people wanting to guarantee that 150ping players don’t show on servers because it would be impossible for them to play?

(Gi.Am) #55

@activeClip A game more competive than Dirty Bomb careful with those blasphemious words of yours :wink: .

But sure in other games (like the various Valve titels for example) you will run into hit registration problems pretty soon, around 80 - 150 pings. If you are competive minded and used to low ping servers you propably start bitching about it, as soon as you reach pings around 40+.
Always having one eye on the netstats counter to check wether a lagspike coincidences with your missed shot, changing your netsettings on a weekly basis, to give you that slight edge. Been there done that.

My point is Dirty bomb handles hit registration differently compared to those other games. You shouldn’t feel a difference, wheter you have a ping of 10 or a ping of 200 your PC is doing the damage calculations and tells the server “Yo we killed that guy”.
If the pings are high that guy will receive the news that he is dead with a delay. But he will die there is no way around it. Likewise you might under high ping conditions receive the message that the other guy killed you, delayed aswell. So you might drop dead after you killed that guy (kill trade) or dived behind cover.

The only times when you might run into hit registration problems in a clientside hitreg model is when packets get completely lost, either because your connection is bad or the server is stressed out.

@Ghosthree3 I understand and absolutely agree with you, it is not an ideal situation, low ping matches are obviously better than high ping matches and will always be. Unfortunaly I doubt that a ping revolution is upon us in the near future, since it would propably involve rewriting some laws of nature.

But since you are from australia, would you say that Dirty Bomb feels more responsive and playable compared to other games at similar server distances?

(Ghosthree3) #56

Yes absolutely, this game is far more playable than most. But no matter how much better it feels. Delay is delay, and it is a fixed amount.

Not really actually. Fibre optic latency is absolutely incredible. The theoretical latency is around 5 microseconds to the kilometer, or 0.005 seconds every 1,000. The distance from Australia to Germany is around 15,000km or 0.075 seconds. That’s 7.5 ping. Unless I messed the math up.

Of course, this is assuming that there is nothing else slowing it down, which there is, lots of switches in between. It also means that to get ping this low world wide the entire world would need to be connected via fibre as directly as possible and all the hardware in between be probably more advanced than it is now. But even a less direct layout of fibre would still result in massively reduced ping. I mean 7.5 from opposite sides of the world? Even if it was 10 times that it would be incredible.

(Gi.Am) #57

Hmm unfortunaly your calculation is off. Or rather there are two slight mistakes.

Pings are in ms 0.075 seconds would be a ping of 75ms (so it would be 10 times higher allready).
Pings are round about numbers, so you also got to multiply your time by two.

Leaving you with a 150 ping between australia and germany. I mean that is still very impressive. Sure there will propably be more stuff inbetween that adds to this (including the fact that the cables are not layed out in a straight line). But I find that still quite impressive and it most certainly would push australia into a range where it could duke it out with some other continents, maybe not directly with EU. But as I suggested with a server somewhere in the middle and everyone having a cool 80-150 ping.

A game like DB would be doable with that.

(Ghosthree3) #58

Whoops, yes, you are right. 0.075 is 75ms.

Guess we need to find even better technology then, or improve fibre :frowning:

(Litego) #59

[quote=“Ghosthree3;46811”]Whoops, yes, you are right. 0.075 is 75ms.

Guess we need to find even better technology then, or improve fibre :([/quote]

Yeah but you also said 5 microseconds, which is 0.000005 and not 0.005, unless you actually meant milliseconds.

(Ghosthree3) #60

No I said 5 microseconds to the kilometer. Then I multiplied it by 1,000 because 1,000 kilometers is more world wide scale.