Phantom Viability Theory

[TheOrangePhantome]

Ok after skipping most of the UNNCESSARY Wall of text i have a idea which may work. Btw just before mentioning it i just wanna say that it’s an ENCHANCMENT to phantoms combat but i dont think he’s weak.

Explosive throwing starts (explode on contact):
Dmg: 67
Amount: 2
CD: 17 sec
Arche: A bit slower than naders nades but the throwing stars slow down faster and are meant to be use at closer ranges.
Range: Same as the range of fletchers stickies.

The throwing stars are meant to be used for chiping away from an enemies health and you’re given 2 because they’re more for getting thrown in groups of enemies to distract them and get their attention and to distract enemies when flanking and etc.

What do you think?

[watsyurdeal]

I think that it’s a band aid to the problem, which is that a stealth class simply sucks at being stealthy.

Being sorta visible isn’t good enough, and the armor is bullshit imo.

If they wanna fix Phantom to be a spooky sneaky ghost, then he needs to lose the armor and actually disappear.

@Watsyurdeal Do you think changing his cloak would fix his viability in competitive? Would he be picked over someone with utility?

Yes, because there a lot of times where even a Fragger can’t get a specific pick, but someone like Phantom could, and that’s all it’d take to get things rolling for your team. A pick on the Medic, Damage Dealer, or Engineer. All that makes a huge difference.

[Rosenkreuz]

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;88735”]I think that it’s a band aid to the problem, which is that a stealth class simply sucks at being stealthy.

Being sorta visible isn’t good enough, and the armor is bullshit imo.

If they wanna fix Phantom to be a spooky sneaky ghost, then he needs to lose the armor and actually disappear.
[/quote]
That begs the question, though. What the hell is Phantom really supposed to be?

Is he a stealthy hunter-killer?
Is he a reconnaissance operative?
Is he an assault unit?
Is he a damage soak?

I’d say he’s all four, but is mediocre at best and abysmal at worst at everything he does.

[gg2ez]

All ideas considered IMO, Phantom should either have low reliance on the team or be able to help them.

@Watsyurdeal seems to like the idea of Spy-Cloak but my suggestion to that would be: Phantom is only 100% invisible while stationary or crouching. This allows Phantom to shake off persuers with relative ease, thus solving the problem of being constantly prioritised as a target. If this were to be implemented, I’d like to see it compensated for by removing the shield aspect of the cloak as to make Phantom REALLY rely on stealth. He still retains his current invisibility while sprinting or walking.

[watsyurdeal]

[quote=“gg2ez;88865”]All ideas considered IMO, Phantom should either have low reliance on the team or be able to help them.

@Watsyurdeal seems to like the idea of Spy-Cloak but my suggestion to that would be: Phantom is only 100% invisible while stationary or crouching. This allows Phantom to shake off persuers with relative ease, thus solving the problem of being constantly prioritised as a target. If this were to be implemented, I’d like to see it compensated for by removing the shield aspect of the cloak as to make Phantom REALLY rely on stealth. He still retains his current invisibility while sprinting or walking.[/quote]

That’d be great if people weren’t actually smart enough to predict that if a Phantom stopped moving, he’s likely close by and easy to spam and find. And crouch walking greatly reduces his speed in a game where speed means a lot.

The way I see it’s either full invis or bust, that’s the only way it’ll work.

[Rosenkreuz]

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;88874”][quote=“gg2ez;88865”]

The way I see it’s either full invis or bust, that’s the only way it’ll work.
[/quote]

A thing that could balance full invisibility is a bleed mechanic where character who are below 25% health will leave a trail of blood. Either that or have accurate footprints in the game.

[gg2ez]

@trickyNugget quotes broken :lol:
And no, A blood trail footprint system is terrible, what’s the point of invis if you do that?

[Verticules]

Bump* Original Post updated.

[TheOrangePhantome]

Guys did any one else than @Watsyurdeal mamman see my suggestion?

[gg2ez]

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;88874”][quote=“gg2ez;88865”]All ideas considered IMO, Phantom should either have low reliance on the team or be able to help them.

@Watsyurdeal seems to like the idea of Spy-Cloak but my suggestion to that would be: Phantom is only 100% invisible while stationary or crouching. This allows Phantom to shake off persuers with relative ease, thus solving the problem of being constantly prioritised as a target. If this were to be implemented, I’d like to see it compensated for by removing the shield aspect of the cloak as to make Phantom REALLY rely on stealth. He still retains his current invisibility while sprinting or walking.[/quote]

That’d be great if people weren’t actually smart enough to predict that if a Phantom stopped moving, he’s likely close by and easy to spam and find. And crouch walking greatly reduces his speed in a game where speed means a lot.

The way I see it’s either full invis or bust, that’s the only way it’ll work.
[/quote]

Personally, I will never go with full invisibility. For me, it’s a sweet spot between 93%-97%, there’s always got to be a countermeasure for me.

[watsyurdeal]

Your counter measure is being aware of your surroundings and communication. There’s no reason for him to be visible if he can’t attack.

[gg2ez]

Your counter measure is being aware of your surroundings and communication. There’s no reason for him to be visible if he can’t attack.

@Watsyurdeal personally I like the whole uncloak on shot thing. It’s a convenience and makes Phantom feel like less of a sneaky Frenchman and more of - well, Phantom.

[watsyurdeal]

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;89104”]Your counter measure is being aware of your surroundings and communication. There’s no reason for him to be visible if he can’t attack.

@Watsyurdeal personally I like the whole uncloak on shot thing. It’s a convenience and makes Phantom feel like less of a sneaky Frenchman and more of - well, Phantom.[/quote]

But the problem is that it’s pretty much exactly what makes him feel cheap, and is also exactly what keeps him from being buffed in the manner he deserves.

If he’s too visible, he’s useless, if he’s too hard to see, he’s cheap, and there’s no possible middle ground for that. It depends too much on things like what res you’re playing at, your video settings, distance from the monitor, etc. Plus, you gotta consider the speed of the game.

Compared to Tribes this game is still slow, and the Infiltrator in that game COULD have full invis and attack at the same time, because the skill floor was so high and the speed was insane.

This game has a relatively low skill floor by comparison and much slower, so the mechanics and the way the work should reflect that. A Phantom who can attack while cloaked will always be a center for controversy, whereas something more like the Spy is a lot more reasonable for BOTH sides.

Also, he’s hardly like a Frenchman with a Katana and an SMG, I’d say he’s more like Raiden from Metal Gear Solid.

[gg2ez]

[quote=“gg2ez;89106”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;89104”]Your counter measure is being aware of your surroundings and communication. There’s no reason for him to be visible if he can’t attack.

@Watsyurdeal personally I like the whole uncloak on shot thing. It’s a convenience and makes Phantom feel like less of a sneaky Frenchman and more of - well, Phantom.[/quote]

But the problem is that it’s pretty much exactly what makes him feel cheap, and is also exactly what keeps him from being buffed in the manner he deserves.

If he’s too visible, he’s useless, if he’s too hard to see, he’s cheap, and there’s no possible middle ground for that. It depends too much on things like what res you’re playing at, your video settings, distance from the monitor, etc. Plus, you gotta consider the speed of the game.

Compared to Tribes this game is still slow, and the Infiltrator in that game COULD have full invis and attack at the same time, because the skill floor was so high and the speed was insane.

This game has a relatively low skill floor by comparison and much slower, so the mechanics and the way the work should reflect that. A Phantom who can attack while cloaked will always be a center for controversy, whereas something more like the Spy is a lot more reasonable for BOTH sides.

Also, he’s hardly like a Frenchman with a Katana and an SMG, I’d say he’s more like Raiden from Metal Gear Solid.
[/quote]

@Watsyurdeal Raiden is f*cking awesome. If you were to convince me that Phantom should be able to take 100% invis with manual uncloak, you would at least have to give him a secondary that appeals to Phantom’s character.

[watsyurdeal]

@Watsyurdeal Raiden is f*cking awesome. If you were to convince me that Phantom should be able to take 100% invis with manual uncloak, you would at least have to give him a secondary that appeals to Phantom’s character. [/quote]

What more do you want???

He has the Kek 10, Crotz, or Blishok to choose from, the Siemon, Smith and Wessun, and DE 50, the Katana and beckhill and stilletto.

If buffed like I proposed, perfect cloak to get behind enemies and get into spots nobody else could get to, not even a Fragger.

The only thing he’d need is a reconnaissance ability, which I’ve already stated before, the EMP, which is the Heartbeat Sensor, only it disables deployables instead.

How does that not fit a character built around killing people at vital points in time, and sabotaging an enemy strat?

The only other thing I could think is letting his Katana gib instantly, or all attacks from behind from Phantom gib instantly. I wouldn’t think he’d need much more to justify his role after that.

[quote=“trickyNugget;88743”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;88735”]I think that it’s a band aid to the problem, which is that a stealth class simply sucks at being stealthy.

Being sorta visible isn’t good enough, and the armor is bullshit imo.

If they wanna fix Phantom to be a spooky sneaky ghost, then he needs to lose the armor and actually disappear.

That begs the question, though. What the hell is Phantom really supposed to be?

Is he a stealthy hunter-killer?
Is he a reconnaissance operative?
Is he an assault unit?
Is he a damage soak?

I’d say he’s all four, but is mediocre at best and abysmal at worst at everything he does.
[/quote]

I think it’s obvious they’re trying to make him the first and or second one, the armor is added on as an afterthought, and the SMGs are there because without them, he’d be terrible for damage output, even Sparks with her Machine Pistols would be more effective.

[gg2ez]

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;89126”][quote=“gg2ez;89115”]
@Watsyurdeal Raiden is f*cking awesome. If you were to convince me that Phantom should be able to take 100% invis with manual uncloak, you would at least have to give him a secondary that appeals to Phantom’s character. [/quote]

What more do you want???

He has the Kek 10, Crotz, or Blishok to choose from, the Siemon, Smith and Wessun, and DE 50, the Katana and beckhill and stilletto.

If buffed like I proposed, perfect cloak to get behind enemies and get into spots nobody else could get to, not even a Fragger.

The only thing he’d need is a reconnaissance ability, which I’ve already stated before, the EMP, which is the Heartbeat Sensor, only it disables deployables instead.

How does that not fit a character built around killing people at vital points in time, and sabotaging an enemy strat?

The only other thing I could think is letting his Katana gib instantly, or all attacks from behind from Phantom gib instantly. I wouldn’t think he’d need much more to justify his role after that.

[quote=“trickyNugget;88743”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;88735”]I think that it’s a band aid to the problem, which is that a stealth class simply sucks at being stealthy.

Being sorta visible isn’t good enough, and the armor is bullshit imo.

If they wanna fix Phantom to be a spooky sneaky ghost, then he needs to lose the armor and actually disappear.
[/quote]
That begs the question, though. What the hell is Phantom really supposed to be?

Is he a stealthy hunter-killer?
Is he a reconnaissance operative?
Is he an assault unit?
Is he a damage soak?

I’d say he’s all four, but is mediocre at best and abysmal at worst at everything he does.
[/quote]

I think it’s obvious they’re trying to make him the first and or second one, the armor is added on as an afterthought, and the SMGs are there because without them, he’d be terrible for damage output, even Sparks with her Machine Pistols would be more effective.[/quote]

What he needs is a team play ability and balance, you can choose one or the other an EMP or a new cloak? It’s highly unlikely SD would change the entire cloak mechanic this far into his release anyways - or add an EMP device.

The most likely scenario suggested by people on this thread is getting Looter added to his loadouts, especially since the devs want a set of series 2 loadouts.

[watsyurdeal]

[quote=“gg2ez;89130”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;89126”][quote=“gg2ez;89115”]
@Watsyurdeal Raiden is f*cking awesome. If you were to convince me that Phantom should be able to take 100% invis with manual uncloak, you would at least have to give him a secondary that appeals to Phantom’s character. [/quote]

What more do you want???

He has the Kek 10, Crotz, or Blishok to choose from, the Siemon, Smith and Wessun, and DE 50, the Katana and beckhill and stilletto.

If buffed like I proposed, perfect cloak to get behind enemies and get into spots nobody else could get to, not even a Fragger.

The only thing he’d need is a reconnaissance ability, which I’ve already stated before, the EMP, which is the Heartbeat Sensor, only it disables deployables instead.

How does that not fit a character built around killing people at vital points in time, and sabotaging an enemy strat?

The only other thing I could think is letting his Katana gib instantly, or all attacks from behind from Phantom gib instantly. I wouldn’t think he’d need much more to justify his role after that.

[quote=“trickyNugget;88743”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;88735”]I think that it’s a band aid to the problem, which is that a stealth class simply sucks at being stealthy.

Being sorta visible isn’t good enough, and the armor is bullshit imo.

If they wanna fix Phantom to be a spooky sneaky ghost, then he needs to lose the armor and actually disappear.
[/quote]
That begs the question, though. What the hell is Phantom really supposed to be?

Is he a stealthy hunter-killer?
Is he a reconnaissance operative?
Is he an assault unit?
Is he a damage soak?

I’d say he’s all four, but is mediocre at best and abysmal at worst at everything he does.
[/quote]

I think it’s obvious they’re trying to make him the first and or second one, the armor is added on as an afterthought, and the SMGs are there because without them, he’d be terrible for damage output, even Sparks with her Machine Pistols would be more effective.[/quote]

What he needs is a team play ability and balance, you can choose one or the other an EMP or a new cloak? It’s highly unlikely SD would change the entire cloak mechanic this far into his release anyways - or add an EMP device.

The most likely scenario suggested by people on this thread is getting Looter added to his loadouts, especially since the devs want a set of series 2 loadouts. [/quote]

And that’s the main brunt of the problem imo, Splash Damage calls this a beta yet refuses to make huge changes to the game that would actually help it a lot.

Phantom’s cloak is just one of those things, imagine if the recent Fragger change were just a thread, do you really think anyone would agree with it???

It’s one of those things you have to try out to see how it plays at, and imo, the recent change increased the effectiveness of Fragger while also increasing the skill floor.

It blows me away that they refuse to take notes from other games, especially since Spy ALSO had a damage soaking ability of sorts…and guess what, people fucking hated it. But the Spy was also borderline useless because he’s sort of a one trick pony, without the Ambassador he can only stab to get kills, and it becomes incredibly easy to read and predict.

Phantom wouldn’t have that problem, he has the guns, the health, and the tools needed to be an effecive stealth class…all except that his stealth ability is garbage. If the enemy can see you at all it’s pointless, you might as well be naked.

[gg2ez]

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;89135”][quote=“gg2ez;89130”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;89126”][quote=“gg2ez;89115”]
@Watsyurdeal Raiden is f*cking awesome. If you were to convince me that Phantom should be able to take 100% invis with manual uncloak, you would at least have to give him a secondary that appeals to Phantom’s character. [/quote]

What more do you want???

He has the Kek 10, Crotz, or Blishok to choose from, the Siemon, Smith and Wessun, and DE 50, the Katana and beckhill and stilletto.

If buffed like I proposed, perfect cloak to get behind enemies and get into spots nobody else could get to, not even a Fragger.

The only thing he’d need is a reconnaissance ability, which I’ve already stated before, the EMP, which is the Heartbeat Sensor, only it disables deployables instead.

How does that not fit a character built around killing people at vital points in time, and sabotaging an enemy strat?

The only other thing I could think is letting his Katana gib instantly, or all attacks from behind from Phantom gib instantly. I wouldn’t think he’d need much more to justify his role after that.

[quote=“trickyNugget;88743”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;88735”]I think that it’s a band aid to the problem, which is that a stealth class simply sucks at being stealthy.

Being sorta visible isn’t good enough, and the armor is bullshit imo.

If they wanna fix Phantom to be a spooky sneaky ghost, then he needs to lose the armor and actually disappear.
[/quote]
That begs the question, though. What the hell is Phantom really supposed to be?

Is he a stealthy hunter-killer?
Is he a reconnaissance operative?
Is he an assault unit?
Is he a damage soak?

I’d say he’s all four, but is mediocre at best and abysmal at worst at everything he does.
[/quote]

I think it’s obvious they’re trying to make him the first and or second one, the armor is added on as an afterthought, and the SMGs are there because without them, he’d be terrible for damage output, even Sparks with her Machine Pistols would be more effective.[/quote]

What he needs is a team play ability and balance, you can choose one or the other an EMP or a new cloak? It’s highly unlikely SD would change the entire cloak mechanic this far into his release anyways - or add an EMP device.

The most likely scenario suggested by people on this thread is getting Looter added to his loadouts, especially since the devs want a set of series 2 loadouts. [/quote]

And that’s the main brunt of the problem imo, Splash Damage calls this a beta yet refuses to make huge changes to the game that would actually help it a lot.

Phantom’s cloak is just one of those things, imagine if the recent Fragger change were just a thread, do you really think anyone would agree with it???

It’s one of those things you have to try out to see how it plays at, and imo, the recent change increased the effectiveness of Fragger while also increasing the skill floor.

It blows me away that they refuse to take notes from other games, especially since Spy ALSO had a damage soaking ability of sorts…and guess what, people fucking hated it. But the Spy was also borderline useless because he’s sort of a one trick pony, without the Ambassador he can only stab to get kills, and it becomes incredibly easy to read and predict.

Phantom wouldn’t have that problem, he has the guns, the health, and the tools needed to be an effecive stealth class…all except that his stealth ability is garbage. If the enemy can see you at all it’s pointless, you might as well be naked.[/quote]

This is why DB isn’t going to survive the upcoming FPS like Overwatch or R6: Siege, without loosing a substantial amount of players. It’s because SD refuse to make community suggested changes and instead just try to fix complaints.

[Rosenkreuz]

They should just make him completely invisible until he gets to a certain range, gradually becoming more visible as the distance closes passed the minimum range. It could make his Refractive Armor better while not being unfair to other players if the numbers are adjusted the right way.

[gg2ez]

They should just make him completely invisible until he gets to a certain range, gradually becoming more visible as the distance closes passed the minimum range. It could make his Refractive Armor better while not being unfair to other players if the numbers are adjusted the right way.

@trickyNugget that’s actually pretty good. He’d get an absolute chance of flanking but when he got in close enough he could still be countered of he made himself noticed.

I think I’m going to stick with this Idea.