Phantom Viability Theory

(Verticules) #41

@gg2ez You are missing the point of this thread. I’m trying to theorize a non-offensive change for viability.

He kills people fine. He isn’t viable for competitive due to the utility someone else would bring, not because he is weak in combat.

(Verticules) #42

@Watsyurdeal Do you think changing his cloak would fix his viability in competitive? Would he be picked over someone with utility?

(gg2ez) #43

[quote=“VerticallyObese;88161”]@gg2ez You are missing the point of this thread. I’m trying to theorize a non-offensive change for viability.

He kills people fine. He isn’t viable for competitive due to the utility someone else would bring, not because he is weak in combat.[/quote]

I think you’re missing the point - Phantom’s utility is killing people and at the moment, any other merc can do that just as well or even better. Fragger has an LMG and Nades. Phantom has a metal bar with the range of a butter knife and a cloak. If you really want Phantom to be picked over a merc with his role you’ve got to add an ability that will either aid him in killing or do it for him.

(Jemmy) #44

My exp so far with cloaking.
People usually will see me and start shooting, it doesn’t take many bullets to drop the cloak (by this point I usually only have like a second left till dying).

(Grave_Knight) #45

[quote=“Jemmy;88257”]My exp so far with cloaking.
People usually will see me and start shooting, it doesn’t take many bullets to drop the cloak (by this point I usually only have like a second left till dying).[/quote]
Walk don’t run! If you run you’re clear as day but if you walk or crouch crawl you’ll be very hard to spot unless they’re in melee range to you and by than it should be too late.

(bontsa) #46

I can’t stress enough how much I agree with @Watsyurdeal here, the ability to not only get yourself into position and have a jump on your enemy and to be also able to make that jump instantenously without any warning, any kind of “I could’ve prevented that if I just were better at situational awareness / listening / paranoia” thought behind it is just utterly frustrating.

Phantom still feels just as bs to use and just as bs to die to in pubs despite all the nerfhammering that was done since his initial release, and this reason here just seems way too spot-on. Sorry, discussion was about competitive, but with said change (requirement of manual uncloack before action) would in my opinion bring more options to buff Phantom into usefulness without him starting to look extremely overpowered in other modes.

And since yeah if he ain’t getting any more reconish- side abilities judging from developer stream round-ups, these suggestions here look extremely interesting.

(Rosenkreuz) #47

I’m of the opinion that a character on a team that is not really a team player SHOULD be totally self-sufficient. They need to be able to heal themselves and arm themselves. I agree with what’s being said about him not having to rely on his team mates if he cannot provide anything the team can actually use. Every character has something that contributes to the game on top of killing the other players, except Phantom, which means that if the Devs are adamant about Phantom’s primary function to kill people then that should also mean that Phantom’s build is supposed to work with him towards that end goal. At present time, it does not.

Yes, for the most part Phantom is balanced in combat. But he’s competing with half of the merc roster who do his job better than he does, regardless if it’s flanking or open combat or camping. People were doing those things long before Phantom was re-added to the game.

And no, the SMGs don’t make Phantom magically better. You know who else has the same health pool as Phantom with the same SMGs? Fletcher (Blishlok and has 10 more movement speed than Phantom), Nader (Crotzni, also has the same speed and 10 HP more than Phantom) and Bushwacker (Kek and Crotzni, same speed). That’s just the medium class, too. Having an SMG only makes him less mediocre. He doesn’t handle SMGs any differently than the other mercs. Those other mercs mentioned also have offensive and defensive abilities that benefit the entire team (yes, explosives count as helpful to the player’s team when used properly on EVs or C4 areas.)

We also can’t say that Phantom is a good recon because Vasilli does that job, but infinitely better.

As I’ve said before, I greatly agree that Phantom needs to be self-sustaining. Perhaps adding Looter to his loadout cards would be very beneficial. I would honestly prefer for him to have his Refractive Armor do a little more outside of invisibility.

I’m not too sure about the forced decloaking before being able to attack. I mean, you can still sprint and bank off of walls. Logically, swinging something shouldn’t completely disable the armor to begin with, so if it HAS to be disabled when attacking then the animation Phantom does to engage the armor needs to either be removed or significantly shortened.

My other idea to help Phantom out (and at the same time, the team):

How about a radial blind? Reflective Armor. No one in the game has a Flash Bang yet. It’s not like the radial blind has to be super powerful either, and that sort of thing does seem like it could be balanced to where it isn’t going to make it so much easier to win that fight using the blind. It will use the same suit energy too, so if he uses Reflective Armor then he can’t use Refractive until the suit fully restores its energy (which is 10 seconds, I believe.) and it won’t be a very long blinding period either. Probably two or three seconds at most. The radius wouldn’t be that big either.

(gg2ez) #48

[quote=“trickyNugget;88446”]I’m of the opinion that a character on a team that is not really a team player SHOULD be totally self-sufficient. They need to be able to heal themselves and arm themselves. I agree with what’s being said about him not having to rely on his team mates if he cannot provide anything the team can actually use. Every character has something that contributes to the game on top of killing the other players, except Phantom, which means that if the Devs are adamant about Phantom’s primary function to kill people then that should also mean that Phantom’s build is supposed to work with him towards that end goal. At present time, it does not.

Yes, for the most part Phantom is balanced in combat. But he’s competing with half of the merc roster who do his job better than he does, regardless if it’s flanking or open combat or camping. People were doing those things long before Phantom was re-added to the game.

And no, the SMGs don’t make Phantom magically better. You know who else has the same health pool as Phantom with the same SMGs? Fletcher (Blishlok and has 10 more movement speed than Phantom), Nader (Crotzni, also has the same speed and 10 HP more than Phantom) and Bushwacker (Kek and Crotzni, same speed). That’s just the medium class, too. Having an SMG only makes him less mediocre. He doesn’t handle SMGs any differently than the other mercs. Those other mercs mentioned also have offensive and defensive abilities that benefit the entire team (yes, explosives count as helpful to the player’s team when used properly on EVs or C4 areas.)

We also can’t say that Phantom is a good recon because Vasilli does that job, but infinitely better.

As I’ve said before, I greatly agree that Phantom needs to be self-sustaining. Perhaps adding Looter to his loadout cards would be very beneficial. I would honestly prefer for him to have his Refractive Armor do a little more outside of invisibility.

I’m not too sure about the forced decloaking before being able to attack. I mean, you can still sprint and bank off of walls. Logically, swinging something shouldn’t completely disable the armor to begin with, so if it HAS to be disabled when attacking then the animation Phantom does to engage the armor needs to either be removed or significantly shortened.

My other idea to help Phantom out (and at the same time, the team):

How about a radial blind? Reflective Armor. No one in the game has a Flash Bang yet. It’s not like the radial blind has to be super powerful either, and that sort of thing does seem like it could be balanced to where it isn’t going to make it so much easier to win that fight using the blind. It will use the same suit energy too, so if he uses Reflective Armor then he can’t use Refractive until the suit fully restores its energy (which is 10 seconds, I believe.) and it won’t be a very long blinding period either. Probably two or three seconds at most. The radius wouldn’t be that big either.

[/quote]

Took the words right outta my mouth. If Phantom’s job is killing people, he shouldn’t be just “fine” at it, he should be bloody exceptional. Disagreeing with the fact Phantom’s utility is killing people is like disagreeing with the fact Fragger’s job is killing people - that might upset you but you’re going to have to buckle the hell up because as the devs said “Phantom’s job is killing people”, and they’re being very specific about that.

As I said before, if you’re trying to theorise a non-damaging ability for Phantom the fits with SD’s vision, it’s either got to help him kill or do it for him (kind of like how Fragger has Nades).

The whole flashbangs thing isn’t going to work because Thunder is coming - a closed beta merc that throws concussion grenades.

(Verticules) #49

@gg2ez
Then make your own thread. I’m looking for non-combat ideas.

(Trippy) #50

Hah 2 ez…
teleports behind u with my katana and chops u in half
psh, nothin personelle kid…

Sarcasm

(gg2ez) #51

[quote=“VerticallyObese;88485”]@gg2ez
Then make your own thread. I’m looking for non-combat ideas.[/quote]

You literally tunnel visioned right past this. “Help him kill” doesn’t mean it needs to be damaging.

Either way - You’re simply reading too far into it. Saying Phantom isn’t viable because he has no non-combat ability is like saying Fragger isn’t viable either.

You want to know why people choose Fragger? Answer: To kill people.

My point: If you want Phantom to be chosen over a merc whose job is killing you’ve got to give him an ability that kills or helps kill. It’s simple, that’s Phantom - he kills people.

(Verticules) #52

@gg2ez So you think Phantom’s combat is weak? No? Then why add something that makes him more powerful in combat? Why not add something that allows him to refresh for combat more often?

He is a recon because he is built for 1v1s and suprise attacks. And he does this well, but he still can be outplayed or overwhelmed by enemies. That is balanced.

Adding offensive abilities will break Phantom. And still won’t make him viable for competitive.

(gg2ez) #53

[quote=“VerticallyObese;88495”]@gg2ez So you think Phantom’s combat is weak? No? Then why add something that makes him more powerful in combat? Why not add something that allows him to refresh for combat more often?

He is a recon because he is built for 1v1s and suprise attacks. And he does this well, but he still can be outplayed or overwhelmed by enemies. That is balanced.

Adding offensive abilities will break Phantom. And still won’t make him viable for competitive.[/quote]

As I have mentioned time and time again in thread over thread, Phantom isn’t weak at killing but compared to all the other mercs, he’s nothing damn special. Every merc can use a freaking gun. What in the damn world do you not get? The only way you’re going to make a “KILLING ONLY” merc viable is to give him an ability that alows him to do his job better than any other merc and my point is it doesn’t have to be a non-damaging ability.

If you want to make it so he’s a 1v1specialist just give him an ability that works better in 1v1 situations!

Refreshing for combat is fine but it still doesn’t solve the issue of the fact that any other merc can still wield a gun just like him.

(Verticules) #54

He has a shield and semi-invisiblity? That sounds like something that gives u a 1-up in a 1v1.

Like I said, please take your combat ideas to another thread.

(gg2ez) #55

[quote=“VerticallyObese;88503”]He has a shield and semi-invisiblity? That sounds like something that gives u a 1-up in a 1v1.

Like I said, please take your combat ideas to another thread.[/quote]

Oh my God. I can’t even.

Phantom’s. Job. Is. Killing. People. There is his only utility. He will not help the team in any other way whatsoever. You can’t make Phantom anymore viable with an ability that affects just himself - he already has one and it’s called the cloak.

I’m getting the sense that you want Phantom to help the team more - Refreshing for combat isn’t going to help. It’s like allowing Phantom to function as his own independent medic and if anything, that’s what’s going to make him broken.

I’m not going to make my own thread about it because I’m not going to waste my time trying to convince SD to implement an ability that has nothing to do with the nature or playstyle of Phantom anyways. He just needs a buff with what he currently has and an ability that allows him to take off enemies at a faster (but still balanced) rate.

(Verticules) #56

@gg2ez That was my suggestion. There has been a few more added to my list.

I am ignoring anymore posts on the subject of better killing strength. I made it clear that is not the topic of this thread.

(gg2ez) #57

[quote=“VerticallyObese;88515”]@gg2ez That was my suggestion. There has been a few more added to my list.

I am ignoring anymore posts on the subject of better killing strength. I made it clear that is not the topic of this thread.[/quote]

I can respect that.

What do you mean by “more viable” in the first place? Perhaps you can convince me with a deeper explanation. @VerticallyObese

(gg2ez) #58

After reading through the thread header - there’s my best idea for non-damaging, team play, Ability.

Sound Grenade - Makes a loud bang upon detonation. No damage done but disables enemy hearing for 10 seconds.

Reasoning: Helps team by masking the sound of gunfire, helps Phantom because the enemy won’t hear the cloak buzz.

Honestly I’d prefer it to do a small amount of damage in a small radius but then again, you’d ignore the suggestion.

(Verticules) #59

@gg2ez
It’s an interesting idea, I feel like it would keep people from knowing what direction you are, but it would let them know that there is a Phantom nearby without a doubt. It would almost be more helpful if another merc had the ability. I feel like that grenade would warrant “airstrike marker” damage.

Do you think an ability to better hide Phantom would give him viablity? Or would just bring him closer?

(gg2ez) #60

[quote=“VerticallyObese;88649”]@gg2ez
It’s an interesting idea, I feel like it would keep people from knowing what direction you are, but it would let them know that there is a Phantom nearby without a doubt. It would almost be more helpful if another merc had the ability. I feel like that grenade would warrant “airstrike marker” damage.

Do you think an ability to better hide Phantom would give him viablity? Or would just bring him closer?[/quote]

As long as that ability to hide Phantom carried partially into his nearby teammates, there could be a potential reason to choose him over another merc - which is why I suggested an ability that might help the team hide (or flank) a bit more effectively as well.