Phantom - The issue (No QQing)

(Adam) #1

As said in the title. This is to explain what is wrong with phantom, I am not here to complain, and I don’t want to hear others complaining below. So please, add to the convo, don’t cry in the convo.

To start this off, let’s take a look at 2 factors. Closed beta, and Open beta.Why? During Closed beta Phantom was weak, and during Open beta, yes, as a player who bought phantom, he is op… ish…

Closed beta (Phantom’s weak point) compared to now
No SMG
Longer lasting cloak
Longer cool down on cloak
Actual lunge
MUCH slower
Slightly better damage, though not by much
Slightly higher HP, though not by much
Different pistol??? Don’t quote me on that…
Cloak didn’t sheild

So looking at this, laid out in front of us, we can see what Splash damage was seeing here. Phantom had an issue approaching players, by the time he reached them, he was low HP. It seems that Splash Damage wanted to make it so Phantom had a choose. He could bum rush, or stay back and shoot from a moderate far. The only issue with this idea is if you back off from Phantom with his sword out, he can pull out his SMG. In closed beta, if you backed out from a Phantom, his lunge could help him, or seriously hurt him if he missed. This caused players to instead of backing up, swivel. (left to right, right to left) With an SMG though, backing up, and swiveling isn’t every effective. The issue isn’t the Melee… Alot of players QQ over it, because a Melee has that stigma, but the real issue is his SMG. How I could see this being fixed though is even harder. Removing the SMG would cause issues, as then we go back to the run into bullets styled phantom, but a gun like a sniper would make him even worse. The best I can come up with is a weaker SMG, and giving the Melee less damage, more range, and adding the lunge. This would make it so phantom has the option, but when close by, the now weaker SMG would make it like Kira close up. It’s possible, but it’s best used from a far.

But what do you think will help? Keep in mind “Removing Phantom” and “Nerf plox” isn’t helping the convo. Do you think I nailed it on the head? Or is there another reason you think?

(Alphafox) #2

The reason, is simple in my eye, players need to adapt. When a new merc come out what do you see everywhere ‘’ X is OP, please nerf’’ and such things. People prefer to cry over the fact they don’t have a way to counter a merc (when they fight him in ‘‘his’’ zone eg. Phantom and Rhino excell at CQC) instead of actually finding the way to kill the merc.

Most people that complain don’t even know that HB sensor can remove his cloak AND armor. Why? Because they don’t even try, complaining is just simply easier.
The weaker SMG could work, but people who want to complain will complain no matter what.

(watsyurdeal) #3

I disagree, I think the issue Phantom had such a hard time getting close to the enemy, was that his cloak wasn’t exactly invisible.

Imagine this instead, get rid of the cloak damage reduction and the drain on hit. Instead, you’re completely invisible while doing everything but running, running make you more visible to the enemy. Or, let’s layer it even more, the more you move the more cloak you lose.

So in other words, we have Dirty Bomb’s Infiltrator. Capable of getting in close and harassing the enemy, but not tanky at all.

Here’s a good idea of what I am talking about

(Adam) #4

[quote=“Alphafox;41046”]The reason, is simple in my eye, players need to adapt. When a new merc come out what do you see everywhere ‘’ X is OP, please nerf’’ and such things. People prefer to cry over the fact they don’t have a way to counter a merc (when they fight him in ‘‘his’’ zone eg. Phantom and Rhino excell at CQC) instead of actually finding the way to kill the merc.

Most people that complain don’t even know that HB sensor can remove his cloak AND armor. Why? Because they don’t even try, complaining is just simply easier.
The weaker SMG could work, but people who want to complain will complain no matter what.[/quote]

To the person who flagged Alphafox, do not flag on my thread, this is a civil conversation, and we do not want your censorship. people should be able to speak freely, and not have to worry about toning.

As for the reply:

That is true, and the people who do use the hb sensors annoy the hell out of me. There is no doubt that player will learn how to counter CQC with phantom, but as I was typing this, I also remembered all the other mercs. Players like Red Eye could spot out Phantom, Phenix would often get back up after being knifed and take the low HP Phantom down. Every class has an ecosystem on weakness and strong. Phantom was very weak against sniper classes, and so far we have only 1/3 of the snipers added. Which would make me now wounder, when all the classes are re-added, how will Phantom stack up then?

(cornJester) #5

[quote=“Alphafox;41046”]The reason, is simple in my eye, players need to adapt. When a new merc come out what do you see everywhere ‘’ X is OP, please nerf’’ and such things. People prefer to cry over the fact they don’t have a way to counter a merc (when they fight him in ‘‘his’’ zone eg. Phantom and Rhino excell at CQC) instead of actually finding the way to kill the merc.

Most people that complain don’t even know that HB sensor can remove his cloak AND armor. Why? Because they don’t even try, complaining is just simply easier.
The weaker SMG could work, but people who want to complain will complain no matter what.[/quote]

Man Alphafox, you’re winning the game of capture the flag on this forum. People flagging you for no good reason, just because they disagree. Kinda funny actually.

(avidCow) #6

People prefer to cry over the fact they don’t have a way to counter a merc (when they fight him in ‘‘his’’ zone eg. Phantom and Rhino excell at CQC) instead of actually finding the way to kill the merc.

So suggest something other than picking Vassili all the time in case the other team stacks Phantom. Besides, not everyone has Vassili.

Most of the other suggestions I’ve seen have been comments like “just shoot him” or “shoot him in the head”. Thanks for the input, genius.

(Adam) #7

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;41053”]I disagree, I think the issue Phantom had such a hard time getting close to the enemy, was that his cloak wasn’t exactly invisible.

Imagine this instead, get rid of the cloak damage reduction and the drain on hit. Instead, you’re completely invisible while doing everything but running, running make you more visible to the enemy. Or, let’s layer it even more, the more you move the more cloak you lose.

So in other words, we have Dirty Bomb’s Infiltrator. Capable of getting in close and harassing the enemy, but not tanky at all.

Here’s a good idea of what I am talking about
[/quote]

I like this idea actually… From there we could also add a short delay even, so the enemy can react.

(Alphafox) #8

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;41053”]I disagree, I think the issue Phantom had such a hard time getting close to the enemy, was that his cloak wasn’t exactly invisible.

Imagine this instead, get rid of the cloak damage reduction and the drain on hit. Instead, you’re completely invisible while doing everything but running, running make you more visible to the enemy. Or, let’s layer it even more, the more you move the more cloak you lose.

So in other words, we have Dirty Bomb’s Infiltrator. Capable of getting in close and harassing the enemy, but not tanky at all.

Here’s a good idea of what I am talking about

The important difference here, is that infiltrator has a good amount speed compared to the Doombringers, Soldiers, Brutes etc. That idea could work if he had a good speed, but right now he’s at Sawbones speed, which isn’t exactly fast. The cloak armor is kinda required to get close and personal without the speed.

(Adam) #9

Yeah, the class is still very new, so who knows… As for stacking, they could go the TF2 way, and have a limit, though harder to do with the 3 merc loadout, it could be a thing…

(Alphafox) #10

[quote=“cornJester;41056”][quote=“Alphafox;41046”]The reason, is simple in my eye, players need to adapt. When a new merc come out what do you see everywhere ‘’ X is OP, please nerf’’ and such things. People prefer to cry over the fact they don’t have a way to counter a merc (when they fight him in ‘‘his’’ zone eg. Phantom and Rhino excell at CQC) instead of actually finding the way to kill the merc.

Most people that complain don’t even know that HB sensor can remove his cloak AND armor. Why? Because they don’t even try, complaining is just simply easier.
The weaker SMG could work, but people who want to complain will complain no matter what.[/quote]

Man Alphafox, you’re winning the game of capture the flag on this forum. People flagging you for no good reason, just because they disagree. Kinda funny actually.[/quote]

Well this is bound to happen i guess? :smile: I’m sure spamming the flag boutton has consequences anyways.[quote=“Adam;41054”][quote=“Alphafox;41046”]The reason, is simple in my eye, players need to adapt. When a new merc come out what do you see everywhere ‘’ X is OP, please nerf’’ and such things. People prefer to cry over the fact they don’t have a way to counter a merc (when they fight him in ‘‘his’’ zone eg. Phantom and Rhino excell at CQC) instead of actually finding the way to kill the merc.

Most people that complain don’t even know that HB sensor can remove his cloak AND armor. Why? Because they don’t even try, complaining is just simply easier.
The weaker SMG could work, but people who want to complain will complain no matter what.[/quote]

To the person who flagged Alphafox, do not flag on my thread, this is a civil conversation, and we do not want your censorship. people should be able to speak freely, and not have to worry about toning.

As for the reply:

That is true, and the people who do use the hb sensors annoy the hell out of me. There is no doubt that player will learn how to counter CQC with phantom, but as I was typing this, I also remembered all the other mercs. Players like Red Eye could spot out Phantom, Phenix would often get back up after being knifed and take the low HP Phantom down. Every class has an ecosystem on weakness and strong. Phantom was very weak against sniper classes, and so far we have only 1/3 of the snipers added. Which would make me now wounder, when all the classes are re-added, how will Phantom stack up then?[/quote]

RedEye, would absolutely change things for Phantom, when I think about it… every other merc that will be added after him will make his job alot harder to do, i’m looking at you Thunder…

(Adam) #11

I don’t remember thunder… Course, I focused on only a small about of merc in the closed beta (Phantom, proxie, Phenix, Aura, and Sparks) were the players I was mainly testing, so I frankly have no idea who Thunder is, or what he does. Aimee though seems the most scary to me.

Okay, I did a quick Bing of Thunder, and yes, I can see him being an issue to Phantom too… But still, Aimee still seems like Phantom’s worst nightmare. Which I guess could bring back to your first point, over time players will be able to counter.

(scrub_lord) #12

The problem is everyone plays too aggressively in pubs. People are so use to rushing in and not having many consequences to face for it. That’s why everyone complained extra hard at Rhino and Phantom’s release. They are both direct counters to said playstyle.

(Alphafox) #13

You summed it up pretty much. Is it something that get solve the older the community gets?

(watsyurdeal) #14

[quote=“Alphafox;41061”]
The important difference here, is that infiltrator has a good amount speed compared to the Doombringers, Soldiers, Brutes etc. That idea could work if he had a good speed, but right now he’s at Sawbones speed, which isn’t exactly fast. The cloak armor is kinda required to get close and personal without the speed.[/quote]

Yea but he doesn’t need Proxy or Aura speed either

Honestly with where he’s at I think he’s plenty fast, I could walk from the barricade room on Bridge to the enemy spawn where the EV was while cloaked, and with a loadout card that has the increased cloak duration.

Speed isn’t the issue, neither is his melee or SMGs, it’s just the tankiness of his cloak. I’d gladly give that up if I could actually be invisible while walking.

(avidCow) #15

A stealth class is a counter to rushing? But he’s also a counter to passive play as that allows him to manoeuvre where he wants and hide.

Don’t get it twisted. DB is fast and rewards quick flanking like you would see in a Quake 3 TDM. No one wants to skulk about checking every corner twice for that stealth guy with the OHK who also happens to tank damage like a truck. It’s rubbish design and doesn’t gel with the pace of the game.

(Alphafox) #16

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;41079”][quote=“Alphafox;41061”]
The important difference here, is that infiltrator has a good amount speed compared to the Doombringers, Soldiers, Brutes etc. That idea could work if he had a good speed, but right now he’s at Sawbones speed, which isn’t exactly fast. The cloak armor is kinda required to get close and personal without the speed.[/quote]

Yea but he doesn’t need Proxy or Aura speed either

Honestly with where he’s at I think he’s plenty fast, I could walk from the barricade room on Bridge to the enemy spawn where the EV was while cloaked, and with a loadout card that has the increased cloak duration.

Speed isn’t the issue, neither is his melee or SMGs, it’s just the tankiness of his cloak. I’d gladly give that up if I could actually be invisible while walking.[/quote]

Would you like 2 separate cloak abilities? One that well… cloak you and the other that just give you a armor boost ala Planetside 2 infiltrator (even if no one use that cloak perk that boost your armor in the game).

(triteCherry) #17

You summed it up pretty much. Is it something that get solve the older the community gets?
[/quote]

Habits die hard, it’s going to be a while before the faceram tactic dies out.

I do see how having the cloak have it’s own HP bar be annoying since you can’t counter it like Nader’s Martyrdom. Even Red Eye (with my minor knowledge in his abilities) can’t bypass the extra HP, only the visual aspect. He really does seem to break the speed vs health balance this game has. The ability also has a really short cooldown, most of my experience with him went Cloak>Kill>Find Victim>Cloak>Kill>Run>Cloak>Kill.

(watsyurdeal) #18

[quote=“Alphafox;41085”]

Would you like 2 separate cloak abilities? One that well… cloak you and the other that just give you a armor boost ala Planetside 2 infiltrator (even if no one use that cloak perk that boost your armor in the game).[/quote]

No, the Katana is Phantom’s second ability, and should be on all of his cards imo.

Cloak, is his second tool, which gets him behind enemy lines. He’s the definition of an ambush class, he’s the go to guy for when you need a pick on a particular player like Vasilli or Aura.

I don’t think he needs armor at all, he’s not a tank. Should he keep 120 health? well it depends on what Splash wants to do. Personally I don’t mind if he has it, it’s not like he’s going to be as much of an issue when he doesn’t have a second health meter.

(Adam) #19

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;41092”]

No, the Katana is Phantom’s second ability, and should be on all of his cards imo.

Cloak, is his second tool, which gets him behind enemy lines. He’s the definition of an ambush class, he’s the go to guy for when you need a pick on a particular player like Vasilli or Aura.

I don’t think he needs armor at all, he’s not a tank. Should he keep 120 health? well it depends on what Splash wants to do. Personally I don’t mind if he has it, it’s not like he’s going to be as much of an issue when he doesn’t have a second health meter.[/quote]

Personally I think the cloak hp need some help. Sure, I save myself 1 bullet, or a nade, but if a players is aimed at me, I am dead.

Maybe? Depends if the Combat Arms players are willing to learn. Alot of players in DB are CA player too, so that’s part of why everyone rushes.

[quote=“avidCow;41083”]A stealth class is a counter to rushing? But he’s also a counter to passive play as that allows him to manoeuvre where he wants and hide.

Don’t get it twisted. DB is fast and rewards quick flanking like you would see in a Quake 3 TDM. No one wants to skulk about checking every corner twice for that stealth guy with the OHK who also happens to tank damage like a truck. It’s rubbish design and doesn’t gel with the pace of the game.[/quote]

I don’t get why everyone thinks Phantom is a stealth class… Just because he has a cloak, doesn’t make him the spy from TF2…

[quote=“triteCherry;41088”]Habits die hard, it’s going to be a while before the faceram tactic dies out.

I do see how having the cloak have it’s own HP bar be annoying since you can’t counter it like Nader’s Martyrdom. Even Red Eye (with my minor knowledge in his abilities) can’t bypass the extra HP, only the visual aspect. He really does seem to break the speed vs health balance this game has. The ability also has a really short cooldown, most of my experience with him went Cloak>Kill>Find Victim>Cloak>Kill>Run>Cloak>Kill.[/quote]

The cloak having hp actaully is really balanced. If you shoot me enough, I come un-cloaked, and it is very hard to get back into cloak after. As a phantom too, when a person shoots me, my main goal is to gtfo, and flank them.

(watsyurdeal) #20

Because that’s what they are marketing him as

“recruit Phantom, be a sneaky ghost, and play dirty”

From the role call, it implies he’s meant to be stealthy, and as such, not a tank.

I mean people didn’t like Aura tanking either with her healing station, and clearly neither did Splash.

[quote=“Adam;41111”]
Personally I think the cloak hp need some help. Sure, I save myself 1 bullet, or a nade, but if a players is aimed at me, I am dead.[/quote]

That’s why I think he should have full invis while walking, but sprinting and jumping make him more visible.

You wouldn’t need to tank damage if you could just disappear out of sight from the enemy.