Phantom poll with unbiased options


(ChadBroChill) #121

Being a stealth character is supposed to be high risk/high reward. If you catch your opponent off guard, you should win, but if you get caught in the process of sneaking, you’re fucked. That’s literally how every stealth character has ever been designed. The TF2 Spy and PS2 Infiltrator are great examples.

At this point, there’s no gamble in charging forward with your cloak, no disadvantage incurred by being caught, he gets to wait for you to empty half your clip into his shield while he lines you up with the kek or a katana long jump. If there was a delay between him decloaking and attacking, he’d be forced to give his opponent the first shot: A huge advantage in this game.

I really don’t mind him being good at duels, but like all characters in this game, if you want an advantage, you gotta work for it.


(t3hsquirr3l) #122

Whew, made it to the end of the thread so far!

I think that the current iteration is not a terrible game ender or even a real game changer, except in certain situations. I mostly want to see very minor adjustments aimed at making headlong rushes into direct enemy fire less attractive, and encourage more stealthy play. Basically shifting his focus from tank to shank. Stealth is a mindset, not just a fancy suit, and the best Phantoms I’ve played against get that.

Having said that, I actually think that as a concept Phantom could use a revision. He’s stealthy, but not very stealthy, and so needs a shield for when he inevitably gets noticed. I feel like it sends confusing and/or contradictory messages about how he should be played and therefore countered, which matters particularly in lower-ranked public matches where new players are forming their opinions. I also kind of think that’s what’ll hold him back in competitive play.

If he’s supposed to be stealthy, why not make him actually stealthy? Ditch the shield, improve the invisibility just a tiny bit, maybe even muffle his footsteps. I feel like more balancing could be done from there (hp, cooldowns, duration, damage, etc) to put together a class that rewards stealth and planning while leaving them as vulnerable as any other merc when discovered.

A tanky melee rusher could work too, just ditch the stealth and keep the overshield. Without the potential to sneak past (or into) inexperienced or fully engaged players, even a quick cooldown and the ability to absorb explosives and a sniper headshot is okay as you’d need it to close the distance at all. Again, more balancing could be done from that point.

Thems just mah opyniuns tho, I’m not actually that unhappy with Phantom over all. Just fix whatever bugs and make some little adjustments, we’ll all get on fine.


(Mayple) #123

I can’t say the number is correct but it sure seems like a majority when every game with a phantom comes with its fair share of toxic players and general complaining about him.

I wouldn’t say 85%, but I do feel like the majority of players don’t like him.


(avidOctagon) #124

His biggest issue is his tankiness honestly. He has high base health, speed, and a damage reduction shield that ALSO makes him invisible. If he is seen while invisible, he should be punished for it by being shot and killed before he’s in range, not rewarded for being seen early. Many classes are physically unable to kill Phantom with a full clip of ammo while he’s shielded, and that’s not taking in to account the fact that you can miss, while Phantom (more or less) has 100& accuracy with the katana due to its reach.

It’s the same problem I have with a lot of class based games: if the skill necessary to stop a class is vastly higher than the skill necessary to play that class, I think there’s an issue.
Also, none of his loadouts should be “Katana + smg” imo. If he wants a solid ranged weapon, he should be forced to take a less powerful melee weapon, and vice versa. That seems plenty fair, he’s far too versatile as is with the ability to easily flank or front line.


(Whoisthis) #125

Slightly OP, but needs one of two adjustments:

  1. Slow him down. The Katana is deadly to lights, and although he is theoretically slower than them, their only recourse is to run away shooting…which makes them slower than him. I’ve heard people say that this forces people to group up…but get too close and he just hits more than one of you with a swipe. This is particularly bad in Terminal where Phantom rules (lots of cover, close spaces, etc)
  2. Make the shield not absorb damage. As a light I often see him rushing me from far away and even when shooting at him he just shrugs it off. If I try to run he KEKs me. Making the shield not absorb damage I think forces better play as he just can’t rush a light when he sees one knowing the shield will absorb the headshots.
    I actually own a Phantom and play him occasionally and I don’t find him THAT overpowered (although I don’t have Chopper or a KEK yet). That being said, I believe people are cheating the graphics engine because I’m seeing people charge into a room I’ve just cloaked in and immediately turn the corner and start shooting me even though they couldn’t have possibly have seen me before. This happened with a Sparks in one game over and over again and it clearly felt and looked like a cheat of some kind. The second time I had hid in a different corner and she still pointed right at me immediately even though I didn’t move either time.

(VillainousMuse) #126

Okay so… I voted for OP, here’s why.

First of all having an invisibility/melee mechanic based character in a first person shooter is f***ing stupid and whichever developer thought it was a good idea deserves a good hard punch to the d*** every time Phantom tops the leader board of a match.

Barring that, he’s not going anywhere because someone out there has already forked over real money for him so here’s what I think needs to be done.

His invisibility’s visibility needs a rework, seeing him when I’m by myself and shooting at him isn’t much of a hassle because all I see is a black smudge and start shooting at it. At that point, it’s up to me and my skill to bring him out of stealth and then kill him before he kills me. What isn’t acceptable is the fact that in theory that’s how it works, in practice I’m usually in the middle of a clusterf*** of a firefight and between explosions, bullets and other people running around the last thing I can really see is a black smudge running right at me until I accidentally shoot him and drop him out of stealth only to get a sword in my face for my trouble. Not necessarily saying his invisibility as is isn’t good for when he’s stationary but when he’s on the move? Easy to see my a**.

The amount of damage he can take needs to get a serious kick in the ns too, in literally every game I’ve played ever whenever stealth becomes a mechanic, being seen is met with severe punishment. In RTS/MOBA based games, anyone with a stealth mechanic is usually paper thin for a dmn good reason. Being detected for Phantom shouldn’t be a “Oh well they saw me, better start bouncing around and swing my sword at them”, it should be a "OH F THEYVE SEEN ME I NEED TO GET OUT OF HERE NOW". As is, I can empty almost an entire magazine with the MP5 ( or whatever “not real gun” variant they call it for Nader ) at point blank and still get a sword in my face for the trouble. That’s not okay. Don’t care if it’s his stealth buff or the amount of health he has, something’s gotta change on this front.

His reach/swing arc needs to not be so bloody wide he can hit me without even facing me. Yeah I know, sometimes what’s going on with my screen isn’t what’s going on with someone else’s screen but come on, some of the kill reports I’ve gotten (where they show colour coded positions of where/how you died) when I’m killed by Phantom the b******* isn’t even standing near me or facing the correct direction.

Honestly I’d just rather he not be in the game anymore but I know full well I’m more likely to sprout a mushroom on my left acheek. I’d settle for every time I raise my voice in a "Goda*it another team with three phantoms on the opposite side" complaint the entire room wouldn’t immediately go full League of Legends “L2P noob” on me.

No he isn’t balanced.

No he isn’t easy to see.

No he isn’t easy to counter.

And no my mother’s sexual habits have nothing to do with my ability to play this game.


(titaniumCrouton) #127

So to summarize…

1.) You want to make him easier to see.

2.) You want to severly punish him if he is seen, which will be extremely easy once you make him much easier to see.

3.) You want to nerf his katana, arguably the weakest part of his entire kit (As any experinced player on these forums will inform you, if you’re getting wrecked by Katana all day, you’ve got bigger problems than phantom to worry about.)

4.) You also want to make him super squishy

So, if we follow your suggestion we basically make him useless. How about no. Sorry to say but a lot of the problem with Phantom is the same problem every stealth character, every assassin in every game known to man suffers.

He pub stomps and he makes noobs cry. Sorry, but it’s the fucking truth. Now, he does need SOME nerfing and by some I mean adjustments to the whole shielding on the stealth. Beyond that though it’s problems with player skill and how they play the game.

Incoming Retort A: “But he katana’d my face!” If you’re bad enough you’re constantly and I mean to the point he is top boarding with just his katana, you deserve it and have never seen the horror of speed chopper Aura. Seriously, it’s the biggest sign of noob play when you’re getting constantly melee’d to death.

Incoming retort B: “B-b-but he keeps flanking me and shootign me in dah face with kek!” Well, that is his entire job and no amount of nerfs you level at him will change that. Stop being alone. He counters the lone wolf and the EXP grinding “Stand on her heal station” all day Aura. Sorry, but learn to adapt.

Incoming retort C: “But i saw him, shot him and he still closed distance and killed me” First off he is bad for going to knife you after you saw him, but agreed. That is why the shield part of the stealth should be the thing adjusted. Doesn’t mean he can’t drop out and shoot you anyway but you know…that is his job.

Incoming retort D: “He should have super low HP!” Actually, his HP is fine. He already has to get in pretty close to do his job (even closer if he wants to katana) and his entire job is flanking/getting behind enemy lines to disrupt them. Considering the ease of shooting and speed of dirty bomb, he is exactly how he should be. He only seems tanky due to his cloak which, as has been admitted, is the thing that should be looked at.

If he gets the drop on you and you’re alone…you’re dead. That’s just how he is designed. It’s why he is an assassin character. If he drops out on you and you’re with a few people, he’s going to die. Assuming you know how to aim…can’t atest for really bad players. But if that was the case you’d be dead no matter who got behind you.

So yeah. He needs small adjustments but the biggest adjustment that needs to be made is within the community itself. Sorry guys but you have to learn to adapt. I see a lot of people citing Overwatch earlier in the thread (or was it another thread?) bad news for yah: If you can’t handle Phantom just because he can stealth you’ll get utterly destroyed come overwatch because that entie game is about how you can shake up the enemy team and fuck with them.

Phantom is a meta changer. That is true. But every merc is in it’s own way. Phantom jsut changes it in a way you’re not used too xP. The solution to Phantom isn’t as simple as “get X class to shoot him instead of Y class” because any class can kill him. He just forces you to play close to the vest and like a proper team. But people don’t like doing that and get understandably punished for it.

Gl and hf.


(firebrickRetreiver) #128

Phantom is the biggest casual filter in the game. If you can’t deal with him, you have bigger problems than phantom.

He goes down quickly enough. If I could change anything for him, I would just remove Chopper from his Katana, and maybe tone down a bit of damage.

To compensate, make him deal increased damage from the back. Make it generous, something like 180 degrees. He IS supposed to be a backstabbing bastard, not someone who runs up to you swinging. So after the patches, he deals MORE damage than now from the back, but less from the front.

Also, another idea I was musing over is giving him the Sparks treatment. He uses a machine pistol as a primary and a pistol as a secondary. Of course, he would also need buffs to his melee to compensate (like the aforementioned backstab buff)


(VillainousMuse) #129

So for starters: No and it’s adorable that you can predict what I’m going to retort to you, especially the uncertain stammers. Really spot on.

Ohhhh wait no, sorry. Wrong train of thought, it just makes you sound like a patronizing a**.

Now point for point…

1.) I want him easier to see while he’s moving, ever play HALO Reach? As far as I’m concerned, only FPS game that’s done stealth mechanics right. You move, you become more visible, sit still, you’re less so. The more you move the faster the stealth drains, forcing one to choose their movements and plan their attacks. A mechanic like this I can respect because it takes time and patience to execute.

2.) Have you ever played any stealth game like… ever? And I don’t mean those scripted Call of Duty Quick Time scenes where you press contextual button to make the guard want to pick his nose so you can sneak by him. I mean a -real- stealth game where the central mechanic of it is if you get seen, you LOSE. Yes I do think he should be severely punished for being spotted, he’s a f***ing stealth merc you t***.

3.) Really? I’m getting wrecked by Katana and that’s my fault entirely? I could sift through this very thread and find at least three or four posts containing “Katana’s reach is too much” or something to that effect. Either you’re calling everyone who agrees with this point a noob or you didn’t think this point through very carefully. Either way, bully for you.

4.) I refer you to my earlier comment about him being a “f***ing stealth merc” and where I also called you a “t***”. All I have to say on that point.

I imagine if we followed my opinion to the letter, yes he’d be rather difficult to play. Useless? Not necessarily, I never recommended nerfing the amount of damage his Katana actually does so… again you either didn’t think this point through very clearly or you fail at reading comprehension. He still wastes light mercs in one good shot, medium mercs in two or three. I think even scaling back my opinion on the matter from “OP” to “Minor tweaks”, you would have to play him rather intelligently as opposed to the “roflcloakcharge” Phantoms I see just about every bloody game they’re in.

Now for the fun parts… what you think I am going to say…

Prediction A retort: Uhhh, no I never complained about him “katana’ing me in the face” ( Good job on that dips***, I use real words when I talk ). I complained about how I can do a mag dump as he barrels at me in a straight line, hit with most of the mag and -still- get a sword to the face despite giving a generous amount of ammunition to the point where his a** could be picked up with a magnet.

Prediction B retort: … Did you even finish reading what I said? There was -literally- no mention of the KEK or any gun for that matter -anywhere- in my commentary, as colourful as it was. So either you’re again failing at reading comprehension or you’re confusing me with someone else.

Prediction C retort: You know I’ll actually give you credit where it’s due here. Yes, I am unhappy with the fact that I see him from several feet off, mag-dump him and he still just strolls up to me like it’s no big deal and shivs me for my trouble. Not sure if you actually read part of my post or if this is just the law of averages at work, either way golf-clap.

Prediction D retort: Just gonna plop this right here…

… The amount of damage he can take needs to get a serious kick in the n**s too … Don’t care if it’s his stealth buff or the amount of health he has, something’s gotta change on this front.

Glad we agree, moving along.

… Where did Overwatch come in to this? Good lord man are we even having the same discussion? That’s almost a full (guessed) 70% of my post you either missed, didn’t read correctly or didn’t internalize. I will admit my attitude towards Phantom is pretty bitter but that’s more or less how I feel about stealth in any first person shooter done wrong, it’s something that needs to be done very carefully. Not thrown together and pitched in to the game like some sort of tanky-ninja-mutant hybrid.

To the “getting the drop on me” business… Yeah, if the player catches him before he pulls it off though I don’t think he should just get it for free. Which is essentially what he gets now because he can just blindly swing and hop around dodging bullets until he hits a home run.

Addressing the “Aura stiletto chopper” business… I can -see- that b**** before she gets to me, don’t even try to pull that buster-brown. I have plenty of time to shoot her and can usually down her in less than a magazine, depending on my aim that day.

You can stow the “meta-changer” paragraph completely by the way, you’re acting like I said in my post I get the s*** kicked out of me every time there’s a Phantom in the room. It makes you not only sound but look like a condescending a**. My whole gripe with Phantom isn’t the fact that I don’t know how to play against him, I know full well how to play against him and there are people who are better at it than I am countering it; then there are people whom I am better at countering than they are playing.

My gripe is primarily based around “He’s not fun to play against”, see because I graduated from the gaming school of “video games are supposed to be fun for everyone involved” I have little fun, if any when there is a Phantom in the room. When they’re on the other team because I play Dirty Bomb for cathartic violence and getting stabbed when I walk around a corner by some schmuck I couldn’t even see isn’t fun, when they’re on my team because I know the other team is in the aforementioned shoes of getting stabbed around corners by the before-mentioned schmuck.

I don’t need to win a game in Dirty Bomb to have fun much in the same way that I don’t need to win any game to have fun. You know what’s not fun though? A curb-stomp battle when there’s three phantoms on the opposing team and every death of mine is getting my head cleaved in by Phantom.

As a minor note, a small part of my gripe is when I complain about aforementioned circumstance and am immediately bombarded with… pretty much the exact commentary you’re giving me but lacking any semblance of proper grammar or thought.

TL;DR

You completely misread my post in massive quantifiable chunks, until you’ve read it again or passed middle school English: Shut up or F*** off, preferably both in either order.


(titaniumCrouton) #130

[quote=“VillainousMuse;48629”]

-snip-

Read the first part, then stopped. Sorry but you’re being stupidly hostile to a very fair, well thought out post. The retort part wasn’t aimed at you but (if you’d breath, think and read around a bit) is more addressing the main ‘points’ most people have brought up.

In other words, as “cute” as you might think it is, I was just covering pre-responses to the most common talking points.

Now if you’d like to re-write your post in a less hostile fashion, I’ll be glad to read it and respond in kind. Until then, ta-ta :slight_smile:


(waggishVoice) #131

I find it amusing that someone would claim 84% is “a small, vocal minority”


(Ctrix) #132

Havn’t read this thread, just want to say IMO he needs to be an assassin and a flanker. Right now he’s a brawler and no mistake.


(gummer44) #133

As someone who spent a dozen hours playing to unlock phantom and more as the merc himself, I understand a need to tweak his stats BUT without a nerfing him into oblivion. In reaction to Cloaking mitigating damage done while active, taking that alone from his ability could balance him to some capacity. If his health is to be decreased the mitigation of his ability I believe should stay to keep him from being too weak to high dps dealers like Rhino. His cloaking in general I think should be widely untouched with the exception to a slight increase to the cooldown from 5 to 7-8 seconds. Also to those complaining about the effectiveness of cloak, both an experienced and inexperienced player can spot him from any distance when paying attention, plus the noise emitted when cloaked is a dead give away, I myself have been named everything from the “Mosquito” by someone with experience and the “:heart::heart::heart::heart::heart::heart::heart:” by someone who well, wasn’t. That is my two cents, do with it what you will.


(911AmberLamps) #134

I voted slightly OP, but if it were up to me I’d actually remove him from the game altogether. Here’s why:

  • He is one of many characters designed by developers to be “thematically cool” despite being a bad fit for game balance. With this kind of game you’re free to ignore team- and objective-based play and just try to deathmatch it like a 12 year old, but you’re encouraged to play the game the way it’s designed. Vassili may be borderline, but Phantom straight up gives teamwork and objective play the middle finger. At least Vassili’s heartbeat sensor gives him some support potential.

  • “Frag” roles are all well and good, but their power must be balanced. They can have a relatively low skill floor, like Nader, and be balanced by something like, in Nader’s case, low health. Fragger has high health but only 2 grenades before cooldown and a serious reload time(on machine gun). Now let’s look at Phantom… extended melee range, invisibility(albeit imperfect, but good enough to make it much harder to get a headshot), and damage reduction while cloaked. Low risk, high reward.

  • Yes, a bad Phantom who assassinates in the middle of a group will soon be killed. That doesn’t solve the problem though, because his existence is encouraging that dumb deathmatch style of play.

  • Good developers pay attention to balancing the “fun” of characters on both sides. While it may be a real knee-slappin’ good time to play Phantom all day and try to get melee kills, there’s NOTHING fun about trying to fight the invisible guy who can one-shot you. Golden gun characters are never fun to play against.

  • It’s really nice that the good, experienced players can counter him with their 1337 skillz. On the other hand, the developer isn’t just working on the game for their sake. There’s a wide player base, and keeping balance throughout is important.

So my idea of the ideal balance for the game is actually to delete him. He’s a terrible concept, frankly. But since that won’t happen, the best ways to fix the outstanding issues are:

  1. Remove his damage reduction while cloaked. Entirely. He needs his risk upped.
  2. Katana strikes should only OHKO full HP light mercs from behind. This might already be the case, I really don’t know for sure - but in my experience it didn’t seem to be the case.

and while you’re at it:

  1. Incorporate better matchmaking to lessen the constant pubstomping.

These changes(which really aren’t THAT harsh) would preserve his concept and playstyle. If he’s meant to hunt rogues, hitting them from behind shouldn’t be hard for him. If he’s almost always killed when Leeroying, it will discourage all the stupid deathmatch kids from using him all day. Higher risk for his rewards will mean that a good Phantom is a credit to his team instead of the burden he usually is now.


(xAvenger) #135

I don’t think he needs a nerf. His shield and invisibility is of the duration where one has to use it well out of range of the enemy team because if he uses it too close to where they are, they see him use it, break it, and he’s dead. The duration goes down if he suffers damage, so all it takes is for a team to be very successful when facing a team with Phantom is to be aware Phantom is in a match and they can watch for him and stop him. A team with players who pay attention and watch the battlefield will prevail.

Nerfing would make him nearly useless.


(Sorotia) #136

He definitely needs some nerfing how much is hard to say. His cloak shouldn’t have a shield and maybe to compensate they make him a little harder to see.

It’s like they said hey…lets give him the stealth of a Ninja and the power and defense of a Samurai…and the downsides of neither.


(Jojack) #137

[quote=“cursedPencil;49695”]I voted slightly OP, but if it were up to me I’d actually remove him from the game altogether. Here’s why:

  • He is one of many characters designed by developers to be “thematically cool” despite being a bad fit for game balance. With this kind of game you’re free to ignore team- and objective-based play and just try to deathmatch it like a 12 year old, but you’re encouraged to play the game the way it’s designed. Vassili may be borderline, but Phantom straight up gives teamwork and objective play the middle finger. At least Vassili’s heartbeat sensor gives him some support potential.

  • “Frag” roles are all well and good, but their power must be balanced. They can have a relatively low skill floor, like Nader, and be balanced by something like, in Nader’s case, low health. Fragger has high health but only 2 grenades before cooldown and a serious reload time(on machine gun). Now let’s look at Phantom… extended melee range, invisibility(albeit imperfect, but good enough to make it much harder to get a headshot), and damage reduction while cloaked. Low risk, high reward.

  • Yes, a bad Phantom who assassinates in the middle of a group will soon be killed. That doesn’t solve the problem though, because his existence is encouraging that dumb deathmatch style of play.

  • Good developers pay attention to balancing the “fun” of characters on both sides. While it may be a real knee-slappin’ good time to play Phantom all day and try to get melee kills, there’s NOTHING fun about trying to fight the invisible guy who can one-shot you. Golden gun characters are never fun to play against.

  • It’s really nice that the good, experienced players can counter him with their 1337 skillz. On the other hand, the developer isn’t just working on the game for their sake. There’s a wide player base, and keeping balance throughout is important.

So my idea of the ideal balance for the game is actually to delete him. He’s a terrible concept, frankly. But since that won’t happen, the best ways to fix the outstanding issues are:

  1. Remove his damage reduction while cloaked. Entirely. He needs his risk upped.
  2. Katana strikes should only OHKO full HP light mercs from behind. This might already be the case, I really don’t know for sure - but in my experience it didn’t seem to be the case.

and while you’re at it:

  1. Incorporate better matchmaking to lessen the constant pubstomping.

These changes(which really aren’t THAT harsh) would preserve his concept and playstyle. If he’s meant to hunt rogues, hitting them from behind shouldn’t be hard for him. If he’s almost always killed when Leeroying, it will discourage all the stupid deathmatch kids from using him all day. Higher risk for his rewards will mean that a good Phantom is a credit to his team instead of the burden he usually is now.[/quote]

This guy nailed it, perfectly.