Phantom is an Assault class.


(JJMAJR) #1

Phantom isn’t planned on providing any direct usefulness for his team. Thus, he needs to be balanced in a way that would make him be suitable in the same way as an Assault class.

Most, if not all, Assault classes have area denial. In fact, they are the classes that are just as good, if not better, at denying an area than Engineers. They are also great aggressively, taking out heavily fortified positions where Engineers tend to only be good at finishing the job.

Phantom needs to be able to do both of that, and in a way that can support his teammates. Considering he is unlikely to get objective specialist, he’s going to need to be able to work aggressively and defensively.

The most viable course of action would be to have Phantom be very hard to kill. His normal armor (without the damn abilities) should be on par to Fragger’s, but his movement speed should be reduced. He also needs to be able to deny an area, which is something his current abilities, even alongside being a tank more than a ninja, cannot work in his favor for. Therefore, the Phantom should be able to use either a type of grenade or a primitive trap. Since Proxy speaks out against the latter due to her performance with landmines, it’s not the best of ideas. Grenades it shall be.

Finally, he should be able to disappear without a trace if he gets downed. This could allow him to waste a Bushwacker’s time, help out a bumrushing Phoenix, or even another Phantom, and help his team give a big dosage of surprise to the enemy. Since this ability’s practically useless unless in niche scenarios, it should have no cooldown.

Summary of Phantom changes:

  • Increase maximum HP to 140
  • Give him a grenade of some sort. Flashbangs, tear gas, just something.
  • Make him able to hide while downed. This ability shouldn’t have a cooldown.
  • Reduce maximum speed to 385. Due to his weapons’ mobility, he’s still faster than Fragger.

(RyePanda) #2

They should give him some sort of a recon ability.


(neverplayseriou) #3

@RyePanda sd already said that they wouldn’t do that.


(JJMAJR) #4

SD said no to Phantom getting a spotter ability, which isn’t very smart, but we have to work around that now. Like Amerika’s performance with the Phantom, I’m being pragmatic.

If the Phantom isn’t going to spot, then it should be rebalanced so high level players can find a use for the class. Like you, I think that SD is being irrational.


(gg2ez) #5

I think Phantom needs to be re-classed. His “Recon” title serves no purpose, especially when he doesn’t do “Recon”.


(Someordinaryguy) #6

HELL NO ! Phantom should be more Recon than Assault, we already have enough of them in the game. He was a Recon/Assassin merc since Closed Beta and cloak is his main gig


(gg2ez) #7

All other Recon mercs have something in common, spotting abilities - that’s what makes Recon mercs, Recon mercs. Just because he has the ability to be invisible doesn’t make him a Recon, he needs a spotting ability or else he’s just a stealthy assault, and since the devs confirmed “no spotting ability will be added to Phantom”, he technically is an assault. Doesn’t matter what he was in CB, it was an incorrect classification.


(3N1GM4) #8

“All other recon mercs” is only two. which isn’t many. Stoker doesn’t have a fire support ability, but is grouped with them.


(watsyurdeal) #9

They need to make him more “Recon” because if he were “Assault” you know damn well he wouldn’t be picked over Fragger OR Thunder.


(JJMAJR) #10

All fire supports have the ability to give ammo. That was their main way to support their team. Stoker gives ammo, which makes him a fire support merc, even if his definition of “fire support” is more along the lines of an assault class.

Meanwhile, the three other planned recon mercs have the ability to spot enemies. Aimee’s closed beta information was that she can set up a camera to spot enemies moving about. The others that were released thus far are also able to spot enemies besides phantom.

SD is not going to make Phantom an actual recon class, thus he needs to be balanced along the lines of an assault class. And to quote…

He really needs some work.


(KattiValk) #11

Phantom is a recon that doesn’t recon. The devs did say IIRC that his only real job is killing people anyway. It kind of sounds like an Assault to me.


(Amerika) #12

Yeah, that is what struck me as odd about their response. His job is killing people, which is pretty much the job of Recon as well so it does make some sense, but recons also allow their teammates to be aware of people around them yet Phantom lacks this ability. It seems like such an odd omission and an easy fix yet they are refusing to budge on it and instead have relegated Phantom to being good in pubs but a bad pick over other classes in real matches.

I don’t think he should be assault at all. In a way his stealth does help him recon people’s positions to his teammates through voicecoms but we all know how useful that is overall compared to seeing people through walls with a marker.


(gg2ez) #13

Don’t forget Aimee’s camera when she gets put in. There’s another spotting ability for you.

Stoker is a Fire Support merc because he provides ammo - that’s what fire supports do.


(signofzeta) #14

Phantom is not Assault, and never will be. Assault never use stealth. They take enemies head on, and they let enemies see them. Phantom is 100% recon. There is a reason why all Recons are named CovertOps_01, CovertOps_02, CovertOps_03, and CovertOps_04. They have abilities that make you covert.

Let’s put it this way. It isn’t about killing people, it is how you kill them.

If your job is killing by having better weapons, then you are assault. As such, they carry some sort of heavy weapon. LMG, minigun, and grenade launcher. You go Rambo with these mercs. Their slowness makes it hard to do hit and run tactics and your slow speed makes it useless to take the long route and flank your enemy. Assaults take the front door.

If your job is killing by making it so that your enemy can’t see you, either through your own invisibility, lessening your enemy’s visibility to the surroundings, or sheer distance, you are recon. If you are going rambo with a recon merc, and you are complaining that that merc is dying all the time, you are using that merc wrong. If that merc is successfully killing a lot of enemies, and you are going rambo with a recon merc, then Splash Damage made that merc wrong. Recons are better suited at taking the back door and flanking the enemy from the side or from the rear.

For Phantom to truly be assault, he has to carry LMGs, or carry some other heavy weapon, and he has to attack in a manner that enemies see him. He also needs to play in a style where he takes the front door, rather than flanking enemies from the side or rear.

There’s also the fire support merc. Their role is give ammo and kill enemies. Their killing enemy ability has a large area of effect at the expense of long cool down times.

Phantom should be changed so he uses hit and run tactics, and like all other recon mercs, should be good at killing one enemy, but be poor at killing multiple enemies in quick succession. Like Vasili and Aimee’s snipers, Phantom’s invisibility gives your enemy fear of not knowing where they are going to be hit, because of that, Phantom is a recon.

The class roles in dirty bomb is no different from the class roles in Wolfenstein Enemy Territory.

Soldiers, or Assault carry heavy weapons, and their job is to kill enemies, by having weapons with better firepower, but at the expense of speed. If anything, Nader needs to be slow.

Medics heal and revive.

Engineers do objectives, and have some defensive ability like mines.

Field Ops, or Fire Support, give ammo, and have an ability that can kill multiple enemies in a large area, but at the expense of long cool down time.

Covert Ops, or Recon, gathers intelligence, either through long distance spotting, or blending in with the enemy. They also use stealth to kill enemies. They are horrible at dealing with large groups of enemies.

Now looking at what I described with the 5 Wolf ET classes, Phantom falls in the Covert Ops category because he gathers intelligence by being near the enemy without the enemy seeing him, and he uses stealth to kill enemies. Phantom should be made so that if you try to katana one enemy while other enemies are looking, you deserve to be killed. Phantom needs to be made so that he wins in a 1 on 1 fight, but not on a 1 on 5 fight. Even on a 1 on 2, he needs to come out with little health left.

Phantom’s real job should be picking off enemy snipers, and any lone wolf players. Phantom’s job is also to pick off important targets. If there is a group of enemies, with one important target, an Assault merc would kill every single enemy. A recon merc would kill the important target only. To a Phantom, if you killed the important target, and the enemies around him kill the Phantom, Phantom has done his job.


(gg2ez) #15

[quote=“signofzeta;108425”]Let’s put it this way. It isn’t about killing people, it is how you kill them.

If your job is killing by having better weapons, then you are assault. As such, they carry some sort of heavy weapon. LMG, minigun, and grenade launcher.

If your job is killing by making it so that your enemy can’t see you, either through your on invisibility, lessening your enemy’s visibility, or sheer distance, you are recon.

For Phantom to truly be assault, he has to carry LMGs, or carry some other heavy weapon, and he has to attack in a manner that enemies see him.

There’s also the fire support merc. Their role is give ammo and kill enemies. Their killing enemy ability has a large area of effect at the expense of long cool down times.

Phantom should be changed so he uses hit and run tactics.[/quote]

[Definition]Reconnaissance: military observation of a region to locate an enemy or ascertain strategic features. (Keyword: Locate)

Recon gets spotting abilities, that’s why they’re called Recon - because they do reconnaissance, they locate enemies and inform the team, hence the name Recon.

Assault classes have no utility apart from killing enemies. It’s not about how you kill your enemies, it’s about the the fact that all Phantom can do is kill. Just because he’s stealthy doesn’t make him Recon, it makes him a stealthy assault.


(signofzeta) #16

Phantom is nothing more than playing Wolf ET, using covert ops, and disguising themselves and backstabbing enemies.

Any class can kill enemies. Bushwhacker kills enemies with turrets. Proxy kills enemies with mines. I can technically use Proxy to throw a mine offensively at a group of enemies if I wanted to and get many kills. As I said, it is how you kill them. Fletcher can use sticky bombs like grenades.

ALL recons are stealthy assaults. The real name for Recon is actually Covert Ops. Phantom’s invisibility makes him covert, hence why he is a recon.

What separates all Assaults from any other class is that they have heavy weapon abilities. The 2 classes who don’t have a heavy weapon ability, Fragger and Thunder, both use LMGs.

Recons are supposed to be bad at killing multiple enemies. They are good at picking off one enemy at a time. As I said, Phantom needs to be good on a 1 on 1 fight, bad at a 5 on 1 fight.

I will tell you the difference between the 5 classes. Only 1 class is bad at killing enemies. Medic.

Assault kills enemies by having weapons with more firepower. Grenade Launcher, Minigun, LMG. Their weakness is their speed. Although Nader is faster than mercs from other classes, on average, the Assault class as a whole is slow.

Engineers kill enemies by way of using traps. Mines, Turrets, or well placed sticky bombs. Their weakness is that their abiltiies aren’t really that offensive compared to other classes.

Fire Support kill enemies by having large area of effect, but at the expense of long cooldown times. Examples are airstrike, artillery, orbital laser, and molotov.

Recon kill enemies by not being seen. Their weakness is dealing with large crowds.

After the Phantom nerf, Phantom still kills enemies without being seen, but now he has such a tough time dealing with large crowds, unless the crowd are a bunch of noobs.

You don’t take the words Assault, Fire Support, Engineer, Medic, Recon literally. You compare the mercs from Dirty Bomb, their play style, and transfer that play style to a class you would use in Wolfenstein Enemy Territory. Phantom’s playstyle can only be played by using the Covert Ops class, well you can technically sneak around with other classes, but the Covert Ops is built for that.

From the Wolf ET manual:

The Soldier is Enemy Territory’s Heavy Weapons Specialist. While the Soldier doesn’t have any special abilities, he is the only class that can carry heavy two-handed weapons such as the mobile MG42, Mortar, Flamethrower and Panzerfaust. Soldiers initially spawn with a load-out of 4 Hand Grenades.

The Medic can heal team-mates with Health Packs and revive dead teammates, bringing them back into combat without having to wait for the next respawn. Medics help their teammates keep on fighting. Medics can only carry the M1A1 Thompson or MP40 SMG’s and initially spawn with a load-out of one Hand Grenade.

Engineers can set and defuse Dynamite, defuse enemy Satchel Charges, plant Land Mines, build constructible objectives, and repair guns and vehicles. Almost every primary objective in Enemy Territory requires the special abilities of the Engineer. Allied Engineers can choose between the M1A1 Thompson sub machine gun or the M1 Garand rifle with M7 Grenade Launcher. Axis Engineers can choose between the MP40 sub machine gun or the K43 rifle with GPG40 GranatWerfer. Engineers spawn with an initial load-out of 4 Hand Grenades (and 5 Rifle Grenades, if they’ve chosen that rifle).

The Field Operations Specialist or Field Ops is responsible for a team’s ammunition resupply and heavy fire support. Field Ops can distribute Ammo Packs to their team-mates so that they can keep on fighting even when their initial load-out is expended. Field Ops can use call in Air Strikes for nearby targets by indicating the target with their Smoke Canister, and use their Binoculars to spot distant targets for Artillery Strikes. Field Ops can only use SMG’s and initially spawn with a load-out of 2 Hand Grenades.

The Covert Operations Specialist or Covert Ops is Enemy Territory’s espionage, reconnaissance and sabotage expert, in addition to being a deadly marksman. His skills are stealing and wearing enemy uniforms, detecting Land Mines and the stealthy sniping of unsuspecting enemies. He can also infiltrate enemy positions by using enemy Team Doors (while disguised), can report vital battlefield intelligence to his team and destroy key targets with Satchel Charges.

Now if the Dirty Bomb classes were like the Wolf ET classes, which they are, where would Phantom fit? I don’t know, Covert Ops, aka Recon?

For Phantom to be Assault, he has to have one of 2 things. No special abilities, or the ability to carry heavy weapons, or in the case of dirty bomb, have a heavy weapon special ability that is a heavy weapon. So can Phantom carry heavy weapons or have a heavy weapon special ability? No. Does he have special ability that isn’t a weapon ability? Invisibility? Yes. Therefore not an Assault.

We all know that Phantom can’t be a Medic, Engineer or Fire Support.

This leaves Covert Ops aka Recon. Can he at least do one of the things listed in the Covert Ops description. Phantom can do 3 of these things. He is an espionage, sabotage expert, and he can infiltrate enemy positions. Phantom is a recon.

You may not notice this, but the abilities that the recon mercs have once all belonged to one Covert Ops in Wolf ET. It is just that the Covert Ops abilities are split among 4 different mercs. The following abilitiies are:

Sniping: Vasili and Aimee

Smoke: Redeye

Detect Enemy Positions: Vasili. He throws a heartbeat sensor, and in Wolf ET, the enemy positions are displayed on radar so long as the covert ops looks at them.

Detect mines, and in the case of Dirty Bomb, Turrets, Ammo Stations, and Health Staions: Aimee, hopefully.

Satchel Charge: Aimee, because her third eye cam can explode, and the Satchel Charge became the third eye cam in ETQW.

Disguise: No merc has this, but disguising as someone when both teams look exactly the same is stupid, so invisibility achieves the same effect to your enemy. Phantom has this.


(gg2ez) #17

[quote=“signofzeta;108435”]Phantom is nothing more than playing Wolf ET, using covert ops, and disguising themselves and backstabbing enemies.

Any class can kill enemies. Bushwhacker kills enemies with turrets. Proxy kills enemies with mines. I can technically use Proxy to throw a mine offensively at a group of enemies if I wanted to and get many kills. As I said, it is how you kill them. Fletcher can use sticky bombs like grenades.

ALL recons are stealthy assaults. The real name for Recon is actually Covert Ops. Phantom’s invisibility makes him covert, hence why he is a recon.

What separates all Assaults from any other class is that they have heavy weapon abilities. The 2 classes who don’t have a heavy weapon ability, Fragger and Thunder, both use LMGs.

Recons are supposed to be bad at killing multiple enemies. They are good at picking off one enemy at a time. As I said, Phantom needs to be good on a 1 on 1 fight, bad at a 5 on 1 fight.

I will tell you the difference between the 5 classes. Only 1 class is bad at killing enemies. Medic.

Assault kills enemies by having weapons with more firepower. Grenade Launcher, Minigun, LMG. Their weakness is their speed. Although Nader is faster than mercs from other classes, on average, the Assault class as a whole is slow.

Engineers kill enemies by way of using traps. Mines, Turrets, or well placed sticky bombs. Their weakness is that their abiltiies aren’t really that offensive compared to other classes.

Fire Support kill enemies by having large area of effect, but at the expense of long cooldown times. Examples are airstrike, artillery, orbital laser, and molotov.

Recon kill enemies by not being seen. Their weakness is dealing with large crowds.

After the Phantom nerf, Phantom still kills enemies without being seen, but now he has such a tough time dealing with large crowds, unless the crowd are a bunch of noobs.

You don’t take the words Assault, Fire Support, Engineer, Medic, Recon literally. You compare the mercs from Dirty Bomb, their play style, and transfer that play style to a class you would use in Wolfenstein Enemy Territory. Phantom’s playstyle can only be played by using the Covert Ops class, well you can technically sneak around with other classes, but the Covert Ops is built for that.[/quote]

Matey, maybe in ET you could consider Phantom a Recon class, but in Dirty Bomb, a Recon class provides information to the team - even consider the term “Recon ability” which refers to an ability that discloses the enemy’s location to your team, and if your “compare the playstyle” mentality means anything, you should know that Phantom doesn’t fit within the category of Recon because he lacks their primary ability similarities.

Again “compare the playstyles”:

  • All Recon mercs and their similarities.
    [list]
  • Vasilli.
    [list]
  • Spotting.
    [/list]
  • Redeye.
    [list]
  • Spotting.
    [/list]
  • Aimee
    [list]
  • Spotting. (Camera?)
    [/list]
    [/list]

And then you have the outlier, Phantom - with a cloak. Anybody should be able to deduce that the common and recurring theme of Recon mercs is spotting. It shouldn’t be this hard to understand, a merc with a spotting ability is a Recon merc and the outliers go into other classes.

Same can be said for other classes.

  • Fast repair, disarm, arm = engineer.
  • Ammo providers = fire support.
  • Pure killing = assault.
  • Spotting = recon.

(signofzeta) #18

That’s where you are wrong, and I believe that Splash Damage classified Phantom as Recon because of how Wolf ET classifies them. And if I am not mistaken, Redeye can’t spot enemies. He can use IR Goggles to see enemies through smoke, but he can’t relay them to teammates unless he uses the chat. Same as Phantom being invisible and just standing there and relaying enemy positions through chat.

As I said, both the Covert Ops in ET, and in ETQW, and the Operative in Brink, and Phantom can infiltrate enemy positions. Only Phantom in Dirty Bomb can infiltrate enemy positions. No other merc can do that.

Ok, I’m wrong, and Redeye can spot enemies using IR goggles, but Phantom’s ability lineage traces back to the covert ops class in ET, not the soldier class in ET.

So by your logic, Stoker isn’t a fire support because he doesn’t use a radio to call in fire support. Maybe what makes recons recons isn’t because of the spotting, but because they are the stealth class?

The fact of the matter is, Splash Damage classifies Phantom as a recon. He doesn’t have a spotting ability, which means your definition of recon must having a spotting ability is wrong. My definition of recon is whatever ability traces back to the same class in ET. All Assault mercs carried heavy weapons, and those that didn’t have a heavy weapon special ability, could carry LMGs, and because they carried heavy weapons, they are traced back to the fact that in Wolf ET, the Soldier class is the only class that could carry heavy weapons.

Oh did I mention that Phantom could infiltrate enemy positions? So he isn’t technically a pure killer. Phantom is probably the best recon class to relay to your teammates every single detail of what your enemy is doing. Vasili can only spot enemy positions, but Phantom + chat can tell teammates where the enemies are facing, how they are positioned, their tendencies that any other merc who could spot couldn’t do. You could say Redeye could do that too, but Phantom can literally be beside the enemy and relay information without having to hide behind cover.

I also mentioned that Assault, aka Soldiers can kill multiple enemies effectively, and it is truly the case in Wolf ET. Recon, aka Covert Ops, are horrible at killing multiple enemies effectively, and is only good at killing high value targets.


(gg2ez) #19

[quote=“signofzeta;108444”]That’s where you are wrong, and I believe that Splash Damage classified Phantom as Recon because of how Wolf ET classifies them. And if I am not mistaken, Redeye can’t spot enemies. He can use IR Goggles to see enemies through smoke, but he can’t relay them to teammates unless he uses the chat. Same as Phantom being invisible and just standing there and relaying enemy positions through chat.

As I said, both the Covert Ops in ET, and in ETQW, and the Operative in Brink, and Phantom can infiltrate enemy positions. Only Phantom in Dirty Bomb can infiltrate enemy positions. No other merc can do that.

Ok, I’m wrong, and Redeye can spot enemies using IR goggles, but Phantom’s ability lineage traces back to the covert ops class in ET, not the soldier class in ET.[/quote]

Mate, this isn’t Wolf ET. It’s Dirty Bomb - you’re trying to compare two different classes from two different games. Open up, pal - developers can make different content.

Perhaps if you’ve actually read what I’ve been typing instead of retaliating with factually ill rebuttals you would’ve seen that I said this:

Stoker is easily a Fire Support, no other class has access to ammo abilities, just like the only class to have access to spotting abilities is the Recon class.

[quote=“signofzeta;108444”]
The fact of the matter is, Splash Damage classifies Phantom as a recon. He doesn’t have a spotting ability, which means your definition of recon must having a spotting ability is wrong.[/quote]

Yes, classified him inconsistently with the current class system of DB. Saying that it’s right just because the developer made it that way is like saying it would be right if SD classified Vasilli as a medic simply because it was they that did it.

Infiltrate enemy positions to do what? Answer: Kill.

And now to debunk the most BS argument to be placed on the DB Forums.

Your enemies are blind if they can’t spot a cloaked Phantom “right beside them”. Just in case you’re too new to of noticed, Phantom’s invisibility isn’t 100% invisible and eminates a buzzing sound when active. He can be clearly seen by players who aren’t blind or deaf.

Let’s also talk about how the cloak and your chat skills mean jack sh*t. The cloak lasts for 10 seconds, meaning you can only get info for 10 secs MAX, Redeye and Vasilli’s skills spot enemies for a prolonged time. Even if Redeye’s IR Goggles don’t last as long, the Marker that appears above enemies heads lasts for a while longer.

Addressing your “where they’re facing” argument, they’ll turn to face your direction as soon as they hear the buzzing of your cloak so long as they’re half-competent players. Not to mention, people can turn to face different directions in no more than a single mouse movement.

Again, I don’t care about W:ET. This is Dirty Bomb, and as I said before - Developers know how to make new content.

@signofzeta Before today, you didn’t even know that Redeye had a spotting ability - lesson is do your research before rebutting.


(signofzeta) #20

But the fact that Splash Damage classifies Phantom as a Recon merc proves that spotting isn’t what makes a merc recon, and your way of classifying the mercs is wrong. The developer can make different content, but hey guess what, it doesn’t change the fact that Phantom is a recon merc without a spotting abilty, and all Assault mercs happen to carry some sort of heavy weapon, which Phantom does not carry.

How I classify the mercs is more likely how Splash Damage classifies it than your way of classifying the mercs. If your way was correct, Phantom wouldn’t be a recon, but the fact of the matter is, he is a recon merc.

This might change later on, but right now, at this instant, Phantom is a recon merc.

Here is what I see in common between mercs sharing the same class.

Assault mercs all have heavy weapons and they are good at killing lots of enemies fast.

Medic mercs can heal and revive.

Engineer mercs can do objectives faster, and have defensive special abilities. You can use these offensively, but they are more effective defensively.

Fire support all have ammo ability and an ability that kills enemies in a large area of effect, and are usually good at area denial.

Recon mercs all use stealth, and kill enemies without being seen. As a drawback, they are horrible at killing multiple enemies quickly. They can all see what the enemy is doing without the enemy noticing them.

Here is something to make it simpler. Assault mercs can win in a 1 on 5, ok maybe 1 on 3 fight. Recon mercs can’t. Recon mercs don’t get shot at if they are seeing what the enemy is doing. Assault mercs get shot at.

Ok, so I will ask you this. If Aimee was released, and all she could do is use a third eye cam, look through it, use the third eye cam as an explosive, and snipe, and the third eye cam does NOT relay information to teammates, does that make her a Recon? By my definition, yes, and by your definition, no. By definition, she is spotting, but by your definition of spotting, the information must be automatically relayed to your teammates, while spotting just means that you are just looking at what the enemy is doing. It is just that you have to manually use chat to relay the information.