Phantom is an Assault class.

(gg2ez) #21

[quote=“signofzeta;108453”]But the fact that Splash Damage classifies Phantom as a Recon merc proves that spotting isn’t what makes a merc recon, and your way of classifying the mercs is wrong. The developer can make different content, but hey guess what, it doesn’t change the fact that Phantom is a recon merc without a spotting abilty, and all Assault mercs happen to carry some sort of heavy weapon, which Phantom does not carry.

How I classify the mercs is more likely how Splash Damage classifies it than your way of classifying the mercs. If your way was correct, Phantom wouldn’t be a recon, but the fact of the matter is, he is a recon merc.

This might change later on, but right now, at this instant, Phantom is a recon merc.

Here is what I see in common between mercs sharing the same class.

Assault mercs all have heavy weapons and they are good at killing lots of enemies fast.

Medic mercs can heal and revive.

Engineer mercs can do objectives faster, and have defensive special abilities. You can use these offensively, but they are more effective defensively.

Fire support all have ammo ability and an ability that kills enemies in a large area of effect, and are usually good at area denial.

Recon mercs all use stealth, and kill enemies without being seen. As a drawback, they are horrible at killing multiple enemies quickly. They can all see what the enemy is doing without the enemy noticing them.

Here is something to make it simpler. Assault mercs can win in a 1 on 5, ok maybe 1 on 3 fight. Recon mercs can’t. Recon mercs don’t get shot at if they are seeing what the enemy is doing. Assault mercs get shot at.

Ok, so I will ask you this. If Aimee was released, and all she could do is use a third eye cam, look through it, use the third eye cam as an explosive, and snipe, and the third eye cam does NOT relay information to teammates, does that make her a Recon? By my definition, yes, and by your definition, no. By definition, she is spotting, but by your definition of spotting, the information must be automatically relayed to your teammates, while spotting just means that you are just looking at what the enemy is doing. It is just that you have to manually use chat to relay the information.[/quote]

Again, I will reiterate what I have said earlier.

Saying Phantom is rightfully Recon just becuase he has been released as one is the same as saying it would be OK if Vasilli was released as a medic class.

In a game based around abilities, you’re just plain wrong in saying that Recon is all about stealth. Vasilli and Redeye both have no stealth ability - and again, the game is based around abilities.

You probably shouldn’t be trying to make it simpler for me when before today, you didn’t even know Redeye had a spotting ability - there’s a gap between experience and insightedness and I’m falling on the good side of it.

If Aimee doesn’t get a spotting ability, only then Phantom can be classified as a Recon merc as it will be 2 Recon mercs with spotting and 2 Recon mercs without spotting abilities, but as it stands, Phantom is the minority.

(signofzeta) #22

In response to the edited post, then Phantom needs to be more invisible, but be horrible at killing multiple enemies. For example, a phantom is silent and invisible, but once he kills one guy with his katana, his cooldown goes to maximum, that is, he has to wait until his invisibility fully cools down, before he can go invisible again. He should never be good at dealing with multiple enemies, and because of that, the most likely action for a Phantom is death.

This is how a phantom should play, and this is how Splash Damage should change Phantom so it plays in this style. You use invisibility to stand near the enemy, and not attack, waiting for an important target to do something, like repairing, or delivering objective, and you strike. You become visible and you get killed by the enemy’s teammates. It isn’t to say you failed because you died, but it is because you killed a high value target that you succeeded.

Here is something you haven’t thought of with phantom, you can use invisibility and sneak past the enemy and plant the objective, although you would do the objective slowly.

You mention that no other class has access to ammo abilities which makes stoker a fire support, well no other class has access to stealth abilities, which makes Phantom a recon. As I said before, Splash Damage made Phantom a Recon, and you have to see what is in common with all of the Recon mercs to classify a merc as recon. Not all recon mercs can relay information to teammates, therefore spotting isn’t the feature that defines a recon merc. It’s no different from me saying that all fire support mercs have a feature where they use a radio to call in fire support from the sky.

In the same way, my definition of Assault mercs of heavy weapon wielders, effective at killing multiple enemies effectively is more specific to these mercs than just simply being the “killing enemies” merc, which is really the “abilityless” merc. It isn’t that their job is killing enemies because they can’t do something else. It is because they are good at killing multiple enemies.

It isn’t how you and I classify the mercs. It is how Splash Damage classifies the mercs. Your classification of mercs as

Assault “can’t do anything else but kill”
Medic “heal and revive”
Engineer “Do objectives”
Fire Support “Give Ammo”
Recon “Spot”

Doesn’t fit how Splash Damage classifies the mercs because Phantom can’t spot. The way I classify the mercs is to first group together the mercs that Splash Damage classifies, meaning Phantom is a Recon, and find what is in common with those 4 mercs. Since spotting isn’t in common with all the recon mercs, then the feature of recon mercs isn’t spotting, but something else. The classes in this game isn’t only about roles, but also about playstyle. Assault, Fire Support, and Recon can all kill. It is just that Assault is the most effective at killing with heavy weapons, and although Phantom’s job, according to Splash Damage, is to kill, he isn’t good at it, and must play in a style that is in common with other Recon mercs when it comes to killing. He has to use stealth, and stealth killing, or killing while being unseen is the one thing in common with all Recon mercs.

Your definition of spotting ability is the ability to relay information to teammates. If Aimee is released, and she can snipe and she has a third eye cam she could see through, as well as exploding the third eye cam, but her third eye cam does NOT relay information of what is seen through it to teammates, does that make her a recon?

(gg2ez) #23

[quote=“signofzeta;108468”]In response to the edited post, then Phantom needs to be more invisible, but be horrible at killing multiple enemies. For example, a phantom is silent and invisible, but once he kills one guy with his katana, his cooldown goes to maximum, that is, he has to wait until his invisibility fully cools down, before he can go invisible again. He should never be good at dealing with multiple enemies, and because of that, the most likely action for a Phantom is death.

This is how a phantom should play, and this is how Splash Damage should change Phantom so it plays in this style. You use invisibility to stand near the enemy, and not attack, waiting for an important target to do something, like repairing, or delivering objective, and you strike. You become visible and you get killed by the enemy’s teammates. It isn’t to say you failed because you died, but it is because you killed a high value target that you succeeded.

Here is something you haven’t thought of with phantom, you can use invisibility and sneak past the enemy and plant the objective, although you would do the objective slowly.

As I said before, your definition of spotting ability is the ability to relay information to teammates. If Aimee is released, and she can snipe and she has a third eye cam she could see through, as well as exploding the third eye cam, but her third eye cam does NOT relay information of what is seen through it to teammates, does that make her a recon?[/quote]

(Forgive the Ad Hominem) Again, more evidence that you aren’t experienced in this field. Why is it only when Phantom kills people with the Katana? He has a gun and ALL experienced Phantom players use it and ALL experienced Phantom players reccomend against Katana focused gameplay. 10/10 times, a Phantom that can actually use a gun, beats a Phantom that will not.

Your second paragraph isn’t even factually based. Each player has their own way of playing mercs. Some people will banzai rush, and some people will actually live. You can’t confine players to one playstyle, it’s impossible.

No, I’ve given pretty clear thought to ninja-planting. It’s a pretty commonly used tactic, even with Phantom in his current state. Just so you know.

Feel free to continue to argue your case, but do it knowingly that you’ve not shifted my opinion of what Phantom is and what it means to he a Recon class.

(signofzeta) #24

So, a Bushwhacker can use a gun, so what? Can Phantom use a heavy weapon? Didn’t think so.

You have to look at the mercs in how they are classified right now, and yeah right now, Phantom is a recon, and you have to find what is in common with the mercs within the same class.

Here are my observations.

Assault mercs are good at killing MULTIPLE enemies fast. They carry heavy weapons.

Medics have a heal and revive ability.

Engineers can do objectives faster and have a deployable trap or ambush like ability.

Fire Support give ammo, and they also have area denial and area of effect ability with long cooldowns.

Recons use stealth, and kill while being unseen. They are effective at looking at what enemies are doing without being seen, and yeah, Phantom can do this too, it is just that he doesn’t relay information to teammates. Even if Phantom is loud, he can still stand in a windowsill, look out said window, and enemies wouldn’t notice. If any other class tried to do that, including Vasili, he would be shot.

Right now, Phantom doesn’t feel enough like a recon, but he doesn’t have the features that are common to all Assault mercs that would make him an Assault merc. Phantom should never be an assault merc and he should never be changed into one. Right now, Phantom isn’t a recon enough, and something needs to be changed so he is more of a recon, and no, that doesn’t mean he has to have a spotting ability.

If Phantom players banzai rush and live, then Phantom is made wrong. What I was saying, for Phantom to be weak against multiple enemies, is that this his his drawback, and that Phantom should be more silent, more invisible, but the drawback should be that he can’t deal with multiple enemies at the same time. He should NOT get a armor or health boost, or anything that would make him more “assault without a heavy weapon” assault, but be changed so that he is good at killing, but he must pick his targets, like Vasili is doing with sniping. Vasili picks his targets long range, Phantom picks his targets at melee range.

I assumed you have played a lot of Wolf ET, and ETQW right? By my observations, there are a lot of similarities to how Splash Damage classifies the mercs and how the Wolf ET classes are described. It doesn’t matter what YOU think how the mercs should be classified. If Vasili was a medic, you have to find something in common with other medics that makes him a medic, but newsflash, he isn’t a medic because Splash Damage says so. He isn’t a medic because he can’t heal and revive, like other medics could. Splash Damage can classify mercs however they want, and right now, Phantom is a Recon, and the mercs just so happen to follow the Wolf ET model of classification. Say what you will, but reality shows that this is the case. You can’t disprove that the merc classification just so happens to fit the way Wolf ET describes the 5 classes, no matter how much you say that Splash Damage can make new content, but whatever new merc they release, they have their own classification system that you or I don’t know about, and your way of classifying the mercs isn’t the same as how Splash Damage does it, because Phantom is a Recon, and not all Recons can spot.

I also came up with Phantom abilities, that Splash Damage won’t add, because Phantom isn’t supposed to have anything but invisibility, which silences and removes muzzle flash from own weapon, or teammate’s weapon, thus making teammates more stealthy. By your definition, Recons must have spotting, but this new ability I made up isn’t spotting. I also mentioned Aimee, who is unreleased. She could easily have her third eye cam be unable to relay information to teammates, but have some other ability that isn’t considered spotting. Would that make her a recon then?

I think the problem is that you are looking at one ability to classify the mercs rather than looking at the overall picture. Assault mercs for example. You only focus on the “killing” part, but you fail to see other similarities that they all carry heavy weapons, and are good at killing multiple enemies effectively, which a Phantom should not do, and if Phantom can do this, he needs to be nerfed so he fails at this task.

I also see the way you classify the mercs is that you associate a class with a role, or should I say, a unique feature, and you sort out the mercs based on the role they are most effective at or unique feature they possess, rather than taking the mercs of the same class, and finding what is in common with the mercs in the same class, and finding the role they perform or unique feature they possess.

(KattiValk) #25

@Amerika Indeed, that comment really made very little sense.

@signofzeta Let’s take a look at something a bit more real than “muh Wolfenstein.” For example, observe the operational aspect of the US Army’s 75th Ranger Regiment. An elite group that also sits under SOCOM jurisdiction (higher than most SEAL teams in fact) that is specialized in fast insertion and securing airfields. They are not meant to spearhead an advance but are still meant to kick down doors and take names, the door just happens to be the back one. Rangers actually have been known for their recon role (most famous in Vietnam), but this is not the role modern Rangers fill.

To put it simply, direct action does not always have to be up front with the biggest sticks you can carry.

(ASTOUNDINGSHELL) #26

@Incoming signofzeta only argument is Wolfenstain comparisons

(watsyurdeal) #27

Here’s your argument, why the fuck is Phantom’s only job killing?

If I want a killing class I will pick Fragger, Nader, or Thunder when he comes out. Because they are the BEST for that job.

Phantom is just not a good killing class, his cloak is really not that hard to see, his armor is honestly really cheap and makes fighting him a chore. And he doesn’t have anything else to offer, no utility, no special traits or niches that make him an option in competitve, he’s just a wannabe killing class that’s useless when the enemy knows how he works.

What he needs is cloak, GOOD cloak, not this armor crap, get rid of it and buff his health back to 120. Then make cloak purely like the Spy’s in TF2, full 100% invis but to attack, revive, or interact with objectives you have to decloak, which is actually really fast due to the animations in this game (next time you play Phantom use the stopwatch on your phone and count how long it takes from a key press to the animation finishing).

Then, give him a god damn recon ability, I don’t care if it’s the Blackout tool that @Arjun suggested or the EMP idea I proposed, give him SOMETHING. He NEEDS a utility that makes him a viable option compared to other pure killing classes.

(Arjun) #28

First of all ,i wish they took of the God Damn ‘knives’ from his loadout .

I mean seriously !! why would anyone prefers to play with small knifes when they have access to a fucking Katana . Almost 99 % of the people plays Phantom only because of the Katana .

And its extremely sad to get a golden or Cobalt loadout with pen knife . I would rather play with the default loadout .

(JJMAJR) #29

Good phantoms don’t use their melee. Knives also may be a counterbalance to some incredible buffs for the class that would make his firearm play stronger.

I’d like to see a list of knife Phantom loadouts.

Also, I’d say that the Phantom could be rebalanced according to how an Assault merc plays. Make him cause absolute chaos with powerful grenades or something, or give him a spotter ability. SD doesn’t want to do the latter, so Phantom needs to be able to use something that causes a lot of damage.

(watsyurdeal) #30

The knife loadouts wouldn’t be so bad if they actually had good perks, but they simply don’t, and that’s why they are garbage.

(signofzeta) #31

[quote=“Incoming;108621”]@Amerika Indeed, that comment really made very little sense.

@signofzeta Let’s take a look at something a bit more real than “muh Wolfenstein.” For example, observe the operational aspect of the US Army’s 75th Ranger Regiment. An elite group that also sits under SOCOM jurisdiction (higher than most SEAL teams in fact) that is specialized in fast insertion and securing airfields. They are not meant to spearhead an advance but are still meant to kick down doors and take names, the door just happens to be the back one. Rangers actually have been known for their recon role (most famous in Vietnam), but this is not the role modern Rangers fill.

To put it simply, direct action does not always have to be up front with the biggest sticks you can carry.[/quote]

If that were true, Phantom would be Assault, which is false. The definition of Assault in this game is not necessarily about generally killing enemies and being useless at other things. Do you know why I compare with wolfenstein? Because each merc fits the description of the class but not another as they are classified right now.

We all have one known about this. The fact that Phantom is a Recon, Phoenix is a medic, Fragger is an assault, etc. From this known, I group together all the mercs labeled as one class, and find stuff in common with them. What you guys do is speculate on something that is unknown, and try to fit the pieces together, and when they don’t fit, this thread happens.

I look at what actually is, not what it should be.

(JJMAJR) #32

What about the actual combination of firearms? What SMGs and sidearms does the Phantom use when forced to use a knife?

(signofzeta) #33

Rather than viewing Phantom as a killing class, view him as the killing class whose intent is to distract the enemy. This is no different from Vasili using his sniper rifle. There are 2 things about recon mercs. Spying and being a pest. Phantom should be changed so his tactics goes as follows.

Go invisbile
Attack an enemy.
Try to retreat.
Repeat.

The job of Phantom is to try to annoy the enemy, much like what a sniper rifle does.

(Arjun) #34

[quote=“JJMAJR;108912”]
What about the actual combination of firearms? What SMGs and sidearms does the Phantom use when forced to use a knife?[/quote]

Only 3 out of 9 loadouts has Katana in it and it contains 3 diffferent guns . And the other 6 knive loadouts doesn’t have any special buff at all . His sidearms are only revolvers which makes it even harder to finish of people after hitting with a Katana .
( And don’t tell me that you can finish off with the primary , as i’m talking about the significance of the pistol )

(Reddeadcap) #35

Don’t forget Aimee’s camera when she gets put in. There’s another spotting ability for you.

Stoker is a Fire Support merc because he provides ammo - that’s what fire supports do. [/quote]
I’m guessing he was meant to be the deception spectrem more than detection, similar to how Redeye is a bit of both and more a bit of a rifleman than a sniper.

(Naonna) #36

My initial ideas to fix phantom: make his cloak ACTUALLY a bit difficult to see, as it was pre-nerf and let his melee kill gib. - With these changes, if he gets a kill after all the time spent sneaking in, it can matter in a similar way to a sniper’s head shot.

There’s a good chance he won’t get away after a kill because of the noise the cloak makes, along with the earlier stated the fact that Phantom is nowhere close to invisible against anyone with eyes or ears, even as phantom stands still. - He’s currently useless on a level 10 + server, and even less viable in competitive.

Adding to this issue is the nerf-ed cool down. If Phantom spent cloak to GET to his target, how is he to escape?

On a related note,if Aimee is added to the game, that will be THREE counters to the cloak.
Red eye can spot line of sight, Vassili can spot vertically, and Aimee can even spot Phantom around corners with her camera, far before he can be a threat.

If the developers wish to make him a stealth class, then let him be stealthy and squishy. There are enough counters in the game, and more to come.

p.s. - Since the slow-on-swing for melee, if anyone hears your cloak (which has a decent radius), they can simply hop once backwards. Any merc with a speed rating over phantom will be able to kill him in the time it takes to change to his primary after a melee hit/miss.

(JJMAJR) #37

Rock paper scissors is not how SD or the general community wants to balance the mercs in this game. Teams might not have a counter to Phantom, just like they might not be able to counter Rhino.

(Naonna) #38

As of now, even while IN cloak, two head shots from any shotgun will kill phantom, or 3 body shots - excluding any focus fire from nearby teammates. Even an Aura who has ears can 1v1 a Phantom, where common sense says that a lone medic shouldn’t be able to win that fight, unless the Phantom is unskilled.