Phantom Feedback by Einde : who ya gonna call ? Phantombusters !

(watsyurdeal) #41

After playing him tonight, I think these would be some good starter changes

After playing him a solid amount, I think Phantom could use 3 changes.

Buffs

  1. You are fully invisible while walking, only sprinting reveals you. Why? Because everyone has access to Sprint, meaning closing the gap on moving players and staying undetected will be really difficult. And if the enemy rushes into your melee they would have been dead regardless of the buff, it just adds more to his sneakiness

  2. Put the Katana on all his cards, honestly that’s like his second ability, without it he isn’t much use to the team.

Nerfs

  1. Cloak now only reduces 75% of the incoming damage, if needed we an nerf it to 67%-50% instead.

  2. Reduce his health to 110, although the way he plays, even with 120 health if caught out of cloak he’ll die fast, so maybe the first nerf would be enough.

  3. Get rid of chopper, I can’t see him needing it if the Katana is on each card.

(Jojack) #42

Replace the Kek with the SMG 9 and replace the crotzni with the Aunuld.

(watsyurdeal) #43

Or just give him the Hochfir, which is just a weaker KEK

(Jojack) #44

So he would have Blish, SMG 9 and Hochfir? I would probably be ok with this.

If you mean Blish, Crotzni and Hochfir, I think that’s still too powerful.

(watsyurdeal) #45

[quote=“Jojack;43275”]
If you mean Blish, Crotzni and Hochfir, I think that’s still too powerful.[/quote]

Well I disagree, sorry

(Jojack) #46

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;43279”][quote=“Jojack;43275”]
If you mean Blish, Crotzni and Hochfir, I think that’s still too powerful.[/quote]

Well I disagree, sorry
[/quote]

It’s ok. That’s allowed.

(Eox) #47

The more I think about it, the more I feel like my rework is not that good. Actually, that guy has an invisibility right ? He should be designed to be better used for flanking, and should avoid direct combat. A bit like a Proxy, but with a bit more HP of course.

I’ll make another rework suggestion in addition of the first one. Stay tuned.

(wittyChicken) #48

Nope. It takes twice as long for Proxy to do it as Shotgun pellets can only hit one enemy, while the katana will hit everyone in range.

Fragger can do it though. He wouldn’t even need to jog around the map to get to their back.

[/quote]
Unloading it’s whole clip, assuming you have good aim you could kill ALL of them, aim for the head, and nail your shots, hell if you wanna be a real douche you could plant a mine there too for a safety net.[/quote]
That is where the skillcap comes to play.

Proxy would need pretty decent aim on X- and Y-axis while Phantom doesn’t really need to aim at any axis due to the forgiving nature of katana’s right-click. He also has higher health pool which let him escape there, while Proxy would have died to the fragger’s grenade.

Phantom is (arguably) the easiest character to play in pubs now and the only reason why you wouldn’t want to have his right-click fixed is if you enjoy pwning noobs with it yourself.

(GregHouseMD) #49

I’m not sure if that’s what you meant, but the armor definitely feels tacked-on to me. It’s like they decided sneaking using cloak alone was too difficult, and tacked on a mechanic that’d make flanking more forgiving, by making it so that even if people spot you, that doesn’t foil Phantom’s flanking.

Unfortunately, in doing so, they kinda created a beast who doesn’t need to flank at all, because - assuming he can move well - he can absorb quite a few bullets without having to worry about his health. Instead of having to sneak up on people or ambush them, he just needs to be close enough to charge without dying. There’s nothing really sneaky about him.

(Gi.Am) #50

The lead designer said something along the lines that the armor was intended for shielding other Mercs i.e. standing besides proxy while repairing and eating a fragger nade for her. Similar to what I suggested far up.

He also stated that this is clearly not how people use the armor (you can tho. Standing in front or besides a repairing merc is quite good, both to eat incoming damage aswell as slicing approaching phantoms).
I would suspect that however they change phantom, that they either remove it, as not working. Or more likely change it in a way, that the guardian angel aspect gets better promoted.

(watsyurdeal) #51

[quote=“Gi.Am;43535”]
I would suspect that however they change phantom, that they either remove it, as not working. Or more likely change it in a way, that the guardian angel aspect gets better promoted.[/quote]

Well changing so it benefits his team mates more than him is basically sounding like he can cloak his team mates. If he wants to body block for them with his cloak, he could still do that, but the problem with cloak right now, is that just completely eats bullets.

Perfect example, I was in a hairy situation, I committed to it and got the pick on Vasilli so my team could push up, I cloaked and was able to escape with 20 health left.

THAT should not be possible, that’s ridiculous, at least make 90% damage reduction so if the Phantom is close to dying he’ll pay for it. He cheats death way too easily.

The other aspects about him are fine imo, the Katana and SMGs really aren’t as powerful as you’d think. Especially the SMGs, you need to commit to using them before you attack, you won’t have enough time to switch to your SMG from your Katana when caught.

(Jojack) #52

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;43541”]
The other aspects about him are fine imo, the Katana and SMGs really aren’t as powerful as you’d think. Especially the SMGs, you need to commit to using them before you attack, you won’t have enough time to switch to your SMG from your Katana when caught.[/quote]

I really disagree with the smg not being powerful.

I pretty much don’t even use the katana anymore. As powerful as it is against unaware players on light merc it usually ends in my death eventually. Against good players, you might take out a couple light mercs or one heavy merc before being turned on and gunned down before your victim(s) are revived.

So, I use the Kek now. I abuse the stealth to make sure I always get the first shot and have the new ridiculous aim punch advantage (while also attacking from behind) and then re-stealth and preposition. My K/D on pubs has gone from around a 3/1 or 3.5/1 using the katana primarily to easily 5/1 using the Kek primarily. I’m more lethal and harder to kill.

This reinforces my opinion that the Kek and Crotzni need to go. While playing with the katana primarily is harder against good players, that’s the way it should be. Playing with the Kek and the Crotzni against good players is still way too easy, especially with the new aim punch.

(watsyurdeal) #53

If you’re going for single targets, then yea, but in a gunfight with more than one person, you will not last as long.

That’s the thing I think everyone needs to remember here, right now, a lot of players aren’t used to having to stick together, only the smarter players seem to understand strength in numbers.

If he lost the SMGs he’d become a one trick pony really, machine pistols wouldn’t be nearly enough to keep you alive or deal significant damage, especially when they are likely going to be nerfing the cloak cooldown.

And again, you have to commit to using the gun, you do not have enough time to switch weapons unless you’re swapping to your Revolver.

But also, hold on for a bit, I got some math coming to you, just gimme a while

(Jojack) #54

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;43563”]If you’re going for single targets, then yea, but in a gunfight with more than one person, you will not last as long.

That’s the thing I think everyone needs to remember here, right now, a lot of players aren’t used to having to stick together, only the smarter players seem to understand strength in numbers.

If he lost the SMGs he’d become a one trick pony really, machine pistols wouldn’t be nearly enough to keep you alive or deal significant damage, especially when they are likely going to be nerfing the cloak cooldown.

And again, you have to commit to using the gun, you do not have enough time to switch weapons unless you’re swapping to your Revolver.

But also, hold on for a bit, I got some math coming to you, just gimme a while[/quote]

It definitely takes some patience and some good positioning but when people don’t know your there and aren’t even looking at your direction you can take them down almost instantly with the KEK. And have time to recloak and hide again. Just picking off single targets (looking for medic targets or players who aren’t real close to medics) and just causing mayhem behind enemy lines. All the while they are engaging the rest of your team from the front.

I actually like Phantom when played like this because it does require a good amount of skill, awareness, patience and positioning rather than just kamikaze rushing with the katana which you can do without any of those qualities.

(watsyurdeal) #55

Well, I’m back, and here’s some numbers for you Jojack, time to kill with the SMGs he has, and the Machine Pistols he could have, in this case, he trades the KEK, Crotz, and Blishok for the Empire, MP400, or Tolen.

These numbers are based on this chart, where I take the number of shots to kill minus 1, and multiply it by the firing interval. I just modified them to account for 50% player accuracy, which I consider to be average for a decent player.

[center]Blishok

80 HP: 0.44-0.87
90 HP: 0.44-0.87
100 HP: 0.44-1.16
110 HP: 0.73-1.30
120 HP: 1.16-2.18
150 HP: 1.3-2.6

Crotzni

80 HP: 0.46-0.83
90 HP: 0.55-1.01
100 HP: 0.55-1.10
110 HP: 0.55-1.29
120 HP: 0.55-1.29
150 HP: 0.83-1.67

KEK 10

80 HP: 0.43-0.95
90 HP: 0.52-1.03
100 HP: 0.52-1.20
110 HP: 0.52-1.29
120 HP: 0.69-1.29
150 HP: 0.78-1.59

MP400

80 HP: 0.48-1.05
90 HP: 0.57-1.14
100 HP: 0.57-1.33
110 HP: 0.57-1.43
120 HP: 0.76-1.43
150 HP: 0.86-1.9

Tolen

80 HP 0.49-0.98
90 HP: 0.49-1.15
100 HP: 0.66-1.4
110 HP: 0.74-1.48
120 HP: 0.74-1.64
[150 HP: 0.98-1.97

Empire 9

80 HP: 0.42-0.98
90 HP: 0.56-1.19
100 HP: 0.63-1.26
110 HP: 0.63-1.4
120 HP: 0.77-1.47
150 HP: 0.98-1.89[/center]

So, just so we’re clear here, this assumes 50% accuracy, so if you say need 10 shots kill someone, judging just off accuracy, you’d actually need to fire 15. But this is just math, number don’t lie, but people aren’t consistent, anything can happen in a fight.

But, just going off these numbers, I’d say there’d definitely be a noticeable chunk in the amount of damage Phantom would do if he had machine pistols instead. But also, a large part of why he’s so effective with the SMGs is positioning, really if you wanted to nerf that you’d give him shotguns and pistols only, then he’d be useless at anything but melee range.

I think honestly the first step is to tinker with cloak, then, if he’s still a bit too potent for Splash’s liking, then they could look at other options. Just by his design, he will always have the first shot and positioning advantage over other mercs, especially since he could aim down sights to gain pixel perfect accuracy and ensure his shots hit their mark.

(Jojack) #56

Yeah I think my main gripe regarding him having the kek is a gripe with the kek itself. The bullet spread on that thing is non existent. It is just as good from sniper range as it is in mid to close range. All other smgs are much harder to use at range. It honestly feels like a smoother and easier to use m4.

I’m not sure if I ever posted it but my first thought on fixing his primaries was to give him Fletcher primaries. Aunuld, Hollunds, Blish. He’s supposed to be a close combat specialist, give him primaries that reflect that.

Honestly if those were his primaries I think most people would stop complaining inmediately. And while they are at it they should give Fletcher the crotz and kek in place of the Blish and Hollunds. :wink:

(watsyurdeal) #57

So you wanna nerf Phantom and buff Fletcher, you sneaky devil that was your plan all along :open_mouth:

(Eox) #58

Giving machine pistols instead of SMGs to Phantom is something I began to consider since this morning. @Jojack and @Watsyurdeal you made both some pretty good points about it.

I don’t know how to handle this perfectly. In one hand, a stealth based character should be made for ambushing and not straight head to head combat, making sense to giving him a machine pistol. On the other hand, one trick ponies is something I really dislike (I always liked versatility, and it’s pretty much why I like to play Fletcher most than everything). So what should we do in the end ? Tricky question…

I recently read that post from @BBYipho : splitting the invisibility and the armor. And, well, the more I think about it, the more I find that idea appealing. Very, very appealing. That idea also allow me to put in place the machine pistols without turning Phantom into a “one trick pony”.

So I thanks to BBYipho I imagined that second rework :

  • Stealth and armor are now split, and make to abilities.
  • Triggering one of those abilities will give you a cooldown to both abilities (you have to pick one ! You can’t activate both of them). This avoid an exploit like “I go stealth and I poop my armor at your face at the very end to get a multikill”.
  • No cooldown nerf. No health nerf.
  • Primary weapons replaced with machine pistols.
  • You can now sprint while activating your stealth, since you can’t activate both your armor and your stealth, I think it’s welcomed.
  • You’ll be only visible if you run at full speed.
  • Activating your armor reduce your speed.
  • You armor takes 1 second to activate.
  • Shooting and attacking does not cancel your armor anymore : there’s no problem with this I think since you can’t combine stealth and armor, and armor will decrease your speed.

At the end, you should get a balanced merc, useful in offense by the use of stealth and useful in defense by the use of his armor. While the current version of phantom wounldn’t take bullets for you, you can freely put yourself behind that new version without too much problem to avoid taking damage. Phantom should be best used at countering mercs relying on heavy explosive damage like Fragger and for stealth picks. Can be tanky without the high damage output of heavy mercs. No more shield + invisibility combo, and much more reliance on ambushes.

I don’t think he’ll become a one trick pony this way, and he should be much more fun to fight against. Phantoms that fails their ambushes should be kinda easy targets, and Phantoms that use their armor would actually maybe protect someone if an ally decide to stay behind him.

(watsyurdeal) #59

So Phantom is now the main character from Crysis?

(Eox) #60

Does this pleases you or not ?