Phantom: Balance Changes


(DirtyDav) #1

Inspired by this thread: http://forums.dirtybomb.nexon.net/discussion/33585/phantom-feedback ; original idea by @Watsyurdeal, figured I’d write about my opinion on it in depth.

I don’t doubt there’s been tons of this kinda thread before, but I wanted to express my own newly inspired ideas on how to maybe make phantom more balanced, more approachable to new and experienced players alike, and not as annoying af.

Nerfs:

-The shield would act as an object that would have to be activated/deactivated. You wouldn’t be able to start shooting while cloaked; you would have to hit the deactivate button (or run out of time), decloak and wait a very brief period where you can’t attack, and then start firing.

I suggest this because it’s way too easy to stand still and wait for someone to come running straight toward you at the moment, in which case you can unload an easy barrage of heads/right-click them with a katana. I don’t think that’s fair (although I admit to doing it frequently for easy kills :P)

If this method were implemented, you would have to manually decloak and wait very briefly (maybe half a second?) before you could shoot. This would make it much harder to sit and wait for an easy kill, and it gives the victim a much better chance of avoiding massive, unfair damage. This idea is utilized in Planetside 2’s Infiltrator class, and I think it works very well there.

-Remove the EMP shield. I really actually consider this a buff, because most of the time, disabled objects give phantoms away. At the same time, the way it is now, phantoms can be incredibly annoying against some objects, particularly hp stations. As soon as they come by, without warning, the station gets disabled.

This is very troublesome for aura players like me who are depending on their hp station to be there when we need it (and, for that matter, other teammates who are expecting healing). It takes 0 skill for a phantom to walk by and disable it, and it happens before anyone can see it coming. Hell, it can happen through fucking walls. The phantom gets his 25xp for disabling the station, but it’s usually his team which takes advantage of this and suddenly annihilates everyone that was depending on the station. It just takes a single, not even necessarily talented phantom, to just walk somewhere to change the fate of a massive crossfire.

The same goes for stickies. For as much as I hate them and like to laugh at scrubs who get confused af when they don’t go off when they’re supposed to, it’s not fair. It just confuses gameplay. It’s an element of unpredictability that shouldn’t be allowed.

Buffs:

-The shield would be stronger. Not quite as much as it used to be before the “buff” (that was a bit much), but it should definitely hold up against more than, what, 3 bodyshots? It should be at least 5, maybe more.

-The shield would deplete slower. Again, not by much, but as it stands, if you’re moving fast, it goes by too fast imo.

-Cooldown mechanic should be changed. I think it starts at 8 seconds currently (not certain) and over use increases the cooldown gradually up to 11 seconds (again, not certain). I think it ought to start at 3 seconds but increase much faster, e.g. if you use half the ability, it would be at 7 seconds, 11 seconds at full use. Mathematically, a simple, linear computation:

3+8*(time_used/time_total)

The punishment for equipping it for a single second would be greatly reduced, but using it the whole period would result in the same as it does now.

-The cloak would be nearly perfect. As in, you’d have to be super alert to see him even when sprinting. Since he wouldn’t be able to just start shooting on the fly, it shouldn’t be as big a deal. Maybe also make the cloak quieter, if not completely silent (not sure about this, thoughts?).

-EMP ability. tbh I’m on the fence with this one, but I think having a purely emp-only grenade or something wouldn’t be a bad idea. It would take at least some skill to throw, and people could see it coming easily enough. Doesn’t have to be a grenade, either, could be something else (idk, any ideas?).

Summary:
-Shield requires manual deactivation, and have to wait a brief period before firing (thinking probably .5 seconds).
-Remove EMP shield, make EMP an ability like a nade.
-Make shield slightly stronger, slightly longer lasting, and change the cooldown mechanic.
-Make the cloak almost perfectly invisible, maybe quieter.

Instead of a purely offensive invisible-guy who can come out of nowhere and stab the fuck outta you/insta-blast your head off, phantom’s ability would make him more strategic and defensive. It would make it more convenient for him to escape an unwinnable fight, and he could maneuver the map in enemy territory better than any other merc. He would be able to go anywhere without having to worry about being shot at, at the expense of the enemy team not having to worry about a phantom randomly appearing in front of them.

I think this would make phantom more practical to play and simply less annoying to opposing players. Thoughts?


(hoyes) #2

Hmm… about your first point, I think the role of phantom that the devs intended was for a hit and run playstyle, quickly running behind enemies deactivating your cloak and killing them all in rapid succession. Quick and effective. With the slow cloak deactivation it will make this strategy less-viable and tbh less fun.

People complain about this role though, since it doesn’t fit in with the meta, basically not doing anything for your team hence why SD gave him an emp. Imo your idea of an emp grenade is probably all he needs to really fit in as a viable merc, but make the emp extremely strong but on a longish cooldown.

Ideas:

-Remove emp from armor
-Revert cooldown
-Tune down range that armor can be heard by 3m
-Give him an emp nade that emits a bright blue light on a cooldown of 30 seconds
-It will have a radius of 10m, and disable all devices currently in the area for 9 seconds, as well as deactivate all deployables placed down (within radius) for 6 seconds
-It would have a 2.2 second fuse time(so if you have good enough reaction time you can pick up your deployables) and release the same pulse like effect as thunders conc used to
-When an enemy steps into the area of effect that the grenade went off, they will hear a slight staticy noise, alerting them that their deployables won’t work straight away

*The emp changes will only happen if bush gets a buff

I feel these changes would warrant phantom use a merc to disrupt enemy lines on a push by your team, where he can get behind, kill a couple enemies and activate the emp nade, making it much easier for your team to push. He would be very offensive, but still have some use on defense.


(GatoCommodore) #3

well i like the idea of making phantom cloak be used for running away instead of weird spoopy thing that people just can see when they saw cloaked phantom.


(JJMAJR) #4

I think that Phantom’s original design had him be stealthy as a defense character but a veritable tank offensively. Of course the latter part was impossible to counter and therefore Phantom’s tankiness was lost.

The developers probably thought it was smart to have Phantom be classified as a recon just because that he has a cloak.

I mean, there are medics, who are supposed to heal, and engineers, who are supposed to excel in interacting with objectives. Assaults are supposed to kill better and more consistently than other roles and therefore Phantom should have been classified as one when he was released.


(watsyurdeal) #5

For me the changes are much simpler
-Remove EMP field
-Add EMP nade instead
-Activating Refractive Armor equips it, so you can no longer use it at the same time as a gun, it is treated as a separate piece of gear. So you have to switch weapons or deactivate it to attack.
-Refractive Armor now cloaks you 100%, no matter how fast you move, this is counter balance the previous nerf.
-Refractive Armor can absorb a little more damage than before, this way you are not strictly shutdown by Red Eye.


(GatoCommodore) #6

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;214824”]For me the changes are much simpler
-Remove EMP field
-Add EMP nade instead
-Activating Refractive Armor equips it, so you can no longer use it at the same time as a gun, it is treated as a separate piece of gear. So you have to switch weapons or deactivate it to attack.
-Refractive Armor now cloaks you 100%, no matter how fast you move, this is counter balance the previous nerf.
-Refractive Armor can absorb a little more damage than before, this way you are not strictly shutdown by Red Eye.[/quote]

i actually dont mind if the full cooldown is 10-20 sec if the phantom is more like this.


(Dr_Plantboss) #7

I like the idea of a delay, but I don’t think that it should have to be manually disabled by pressing the ability key. I think that left or right clicking should disable it, and then you can attack afterwords.


(DirtyDav) #8

Yeah, I think that’s a good idea, in addition to hitting the ability key (just as an extra option for those who prefer that key).

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;214824”]
-Refractive Armor now cloaks you 100%, no matter how fast you move, this is counter balance the previous nerf.[/quote]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a game that gives 100% cloak even when moving…I’m not sure that’s such a good idea. That’ll make it a super-easy escape option. No one would be able to track him.

Otherwise, I think I agree with all your points, Wat.

But, again, I see a lot of people taking advantage of being able to stand still and wait for someone to get close to them to right-click them with katana. They are almost impossible to see, and if you’re in a hurry, you probably won’t be expecting it. It’s incredibly annoying when people do this, especially for those <=90 hp. This wouldn’t be a big deal if phantom’s weapons were briefly unusable after cloaking. As for strategy, if he is running behind enemies, then a brief wait-period shouldn’t be a big deal since they won’t see him coming, anyway.

Hm? Why? Is there something I’m missing?

But I can’t argue with your EMP ideas; I think that’d be a great addition.

Update: changed thread title, I think it’s more fitting. I didn’t really have a tank class in mind when I said “more defense based”, I just meant that he ought not to be able to pop out of nowhere and instakill someone but have a fairly useless shield when moving.

…out of curiosity, does SD take these things seriously, or are we just fantasizing over what would make a good merc? :stuck_out_tongue:


(watsyurdeal) #9

[quote=“r2dav2;214914”]

TF2? Tribes Ascend?


(DirtyDav) #10

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;214943”][quote=“r2dav2;214914”]

TF2? Tribes Ascend?[/quote]

Let me rephrase: I don’t think I’ve seen a game with a full cloak that also acts as a full damage protection shield that also has a super op primary they can whip out at any time…haven’t actually played tribes yet though lol, also not much of a TF2 player.


(GatoCommodore) #11

[quote=“r2dav2;214944”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;214943”][quote=“r2dav2;214914”]

TF2? Tribes Ascend?[/quote]

Let me rephrase: I don’t think I’ve seen a game with a full cloak that also acts as a full damage protection shield that also has a super op primary they can whip out at any time…haven’t actually played tribes yet though lol, also not much of a TF2 player.[/quote]

maybe not the shield. Just throw the shield turtle can get the shield.


(DirtyDav) #12

[quote=“sweetColumn;214946”][quote=“r2dav2;214944”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;214943”][quote=“r2dav2;214914”]

TF2? Tribes Ascend?[/quote]

Let me rephrase: I don’t think I’ve seen a game with a full cloak that also acts as a full damage protection shield that also has a super op primary they can whip out at any time…haven’t actually played tribes yet though lol, also not much of a TF2 player.[/quote]

maybe not the shield. Just throw the shield turtle can get the shield.[/quote]

But…Turtle’s shield isn’t quite the same…:stuck_out_tongue:


(GatoCommodore) #13

[quote=“r2dav2;214948”][quote=“sweetColumn;214946”][quote=“r2dav2;214944”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;214943”][quote=“r2dav2;214914”]

TF2? Tribes Ascend?[/quote]

Let me rephrase: I don’t think I’ve seen a game with a full cloak that also acts as a full damage protection shield that also has a super op primary they can whip out at any time…haven’t actually played tribes yet though lol, also not much of a TF2 player.[/quote]

maybe not the shield. Just throw the shield turtle can get the shield.[/quote]

But…Turtle’s shield isn’t quite the same…:P[/quote]

well phantom dont really need the shield. Most of the people who play phantom even forgot that he has shield. Escaping needs more wit than surivability if the cloak is indeed 100% invisibility


(DirtyDav) #14

[quote=“sweetColumn;214952”][quote=“r2dav2;214948”][quote=“sweetColumn;214946”][quote=“r2dav2;214944”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;214943”][quote=“r2dav2;214914”]

TF2? Tribes Ascend?[/quote]

Let me rephrase: I don’t think I’ve seen a game with a full cloak that also acts as a full damage protection shield that also has a super op primary they can whip out at any time…haven’t actually played tribes yet though lol, also not much of a TF2 player.[/quote]

maybe not the shield. Just throw the shield turtle can get the shield.[/quote]

But…Turtle’s shield isn’t quite the same…:P[/quote]

well phantom dont really need the shield. Most of the people who play phantom even forgot that he has shield. Escaping needs more wit than surivability if the cloak is indeed 100% invisibility[/quote]

So you’re saying that cloak wouldn’t act as a shield…I guess that would be an upside if getting shot doesn’t deplete it.

Or what if the shield just reduced damage when hit but didn’t deplete from that?


(Dr_Plantboss) #15

Team Fortress 2…


(GatoCommodore) #16

[quote=“r2dav2;214953”][quote=“sweetColumn;214952”][quote=“r2dav2;214948”][quote=“sweetColumn;214946”][quote=“r2dav2;214944”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;214943”][quote=“r2dav2;214914”]

TF2? Tribes Ascend?[/quote]

Let me rephrase: I don’t think I’ve seen a game with a full cloak that also acts as a full damage protection shield that also has a super op primary they can whip out at any time…haven’t actually played tribes yet though lol, also not much of a TF2 player.[/quote]

maybe not the shield. Just throw the shield turtle can get the shield.[/quote]

But…Turtle’s shield isn’t quite the same…:P[/quote]

well phantom dont really need the shield. Most of the people who play phantom even forgot that he has shield. Escaping needs more wit than surivability if the cloak is indeed 100% invisibility[/quote]

So you’re saying that cloak wouldn’t act as a shield…I guess that would be an upside if getting shot doesn’t deplete it.

Or what if the shield just reduced damage when hit but didn’t deplete from that?[/quote]

maybe the shield will hold until it ran out but will get that spoopy phantom glimmer when gets shot that will dissapear in another second.

i think thats better than the current cloak. Nobody really use the shield anyway.


(DirtyDav) #17

[quote=“sweetColumn;214968”][quote=“r2dav2;214953”][quote=“sweetColumn;214952”][quote=“r2dav2;214948”][quote=“sweetColumn;214946”][quote=“r2dav2;214944”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;214943”][quote=“r2dav2;214914”]

TF2? Tribes Ascend?[/quote]

Let me rephrase: I don’t think I’ve seen a game with a full cloak that also acts as a full damage protection shield that also has a super op primary they can whip out at any time…haven’t actually played tribes yet though lol, also not much of a TF2 player.[/quote]

maybe not the shield. Just throw the shield turtle can get the shield.[/quote]

But…Turtle’s shield isn’t quite the same…:P[/quote]

well phantom dont really need the shield. Most of the people who play phantom even forgot that he has shield. Escaping needs more wit than surivability if the cloak is indeed 100% invisibility[/quote]

So you’re saying that cloak wouldn’t act as a shield…I guess that would be an upside if getting shot doesn’t deplete it.

Or what if the shield just reduced damage when hit but didn’t deplete from that?[/quote]

maybe the shield will hold until it ran out but will get that spoopy phantom glimmer when gets shot that will dissapear in another second.

i think thats better than the current cloak. Nobody really use the shield anyway.[/quote]

I use it :S

I think that’s a good idea. SD pls implement.


(Mr-Penguin) #18

[quote=“r2dav2;214914”]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a game that gives 100% cloak even when moving…I’m not sure that’s such a good idea. That’ll make it a super-easy escape option. No one would be able to track him.

Otherwise, I think I agree with all your points, Wat.[/quote]
One of the characters in Paladins has a 100% cloak while moving , but you can only see it as a shimmer if you’re really close.

And then there’s Fractured Space’s stealth ships, but those are gigantic capital ships with huge TTK compared to an FPS, so it’s not really a good comparison with DB. :confused:


(GatoCommodore) #19

[quote=“derpypenguinz19;214974”][quote=“r2dav2;214914”]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a game that gives 100% cloak even when moving…I’m not sure that’s such a good idea. That’ll make it a super-easy escape option. No one would be able to track him.

Otherwise, I think I agree with all your points, Wat.[/quote]
One of the characters in Paladins has a 100% cloak while moving , but you can only see it as a shimmer if you’re really close.

And then there’s Fractured Space’s stealth ships, but those are gigantic capital ships with huge TTK compared to an FPS, so it’s not really a good comparison with DB. :confused:
[/quote]

shame my pc cant handle the fractured spess.
i really love capital ships fight with laser and all.


(Szakalot) #20

hard to read a wall of text if OP thinks Phantom is OP and not the probably weakest merc in the entire game.