Phantom all but a fun merc / lacking an identity

[capriciousParsely]

You people forget that Phantom is almost invisible while standing still. Edge corners while stealthing and you will get the advantage everytime.

[BushDweller]

[quote=“Azure;59651”]

1.You keep on saying you play him as a gunner which pretty much defeats the point of picking Phantom over any Merc. You rather rely on RNG to get a kill which any other class can do better at.

2. Phantom is RECON and Fragger is ASSAULT http://dirtybomb.gamepedia.com/Mercs
   They are and should be completely different in play styles.

3. Why do you keep trying to dismiss the other classes obviously better abilities to make Phantom sound better??? You sound like someone with a serious case of buyers remorse…[/quote]

4. RNG? Huh? How does RNG have a role in this at all? Using a gun, how does that defeat the point of phantom? The point of phantom currently is being able to flank and get around the enemy easier.

5. Vasilli is RECON and Fragger is ASSAULT??? They both use guns???
   Redeye is RECON and Fragger is ASSAULT??? They both have throwables+guns???
   Whats your point? A recon class isn’t tied to a specific weapon lol

6. Huh…? Phantoms ability is great, if I could go invisible with any class, I would.

[watsyurdeal]

[quote=“BushDweller;59740”][quote=“Azure;59651”]

1.You keep on saying you play him as a gunner which pretty much defeats the point of picking Phantom over any Merc. You rather rely on RNG to get a kill which any other class can do better at.

2. Phantom is RECON and Fragger is ASSAULT http://dirtybomb.gamepedia.com/Mercs
   They are and should be completely different in play styles.

3. Why do you keep trying to dismiss the other classes obviously better abilities to make Phantom sound better??? You sound like someone with a serious case of buyers remorse…[/quote]

4. RNG? Huh? How does RNG have a role in this at all? Using a gun, how does that defeat the point of phantom? The point of phantom currently is being able to flank and get around the enemy easier.

5. Vasilli is RECON and Fragger is ASSAULT??? They both use guns???
   Redeye is RECON and Fragger is ASSAULT??? They both have throwables+guns???
   Whats your point? A recon class isn’t tied to a specific weapon lol

6. Huh…? Phantoms ability is great, if I could go invisible with any class, I would.[/quote]

Regarding number 2, I think his point is that Recon are more akin to Glass Cannons, whereas Assault are more of full frontlines classes, first to come in, first to die, but they do the most damage.

[Ottah]

You people forget that Phantom is almost invisible while standing still. Edge corners while stealthing and you will get the advantage everytime.

We know you can do that with the merc, we know that he is 90% translucent when you dont move. Its just that the current version of the cloak really dropped the skill ceiling down (despite what the dev’s believe) and made the playstyle dull and linear because its no longer possible to make plays against competent players because they spot you 10 out of 10 times, unless they are fully distracted. In wich case any merc could have killed them.

A full cloak without damage reduction, that is what he needs. i really dont understand why the dev’s think its okay that some classes will never see comp, so they dont bother thinking about possible improvements. And before you go ‘Umg but my proxy will get oneshot nonstop ;(’, well his cloak noise is so audible that it actually hurts my ears when a phantom sneaks up on me when i play vasilli, you sprint for a second, turn around and gun down the phantom. 1 sniper shot will drop the cloak and flatout kill the phantom if you headshot him and his cloak is somewhat drained.

In TF2 the Spy is also not a class that is played as a ‘main’ class, but often players in comp matches do switch to the spy if they recognize a moment where a play is possible, that will never happen in this game with the current attitude of the dev’s towards phantom.

Dull, linear gameplay, that is what phantom means to me now. Hoping for some tweaks at best, the other mercs except vas are just not interesting to me (standard gun gameplay, i want to use my brain as a weapon)

[Lumi]

[quote=“BushDweller;59374”]

I’m sorry but with this logic…

Regarding Fletcher,Bushwhacker, Proxy you still don’t get me. Yes they can do objectives well, but so can any other merc. The advantages you’re advertizing are chievable by many other mercs or heck just by personal skill.

Should we buff them too!?!?!?![/quote]

Where did you get the idea that I’m asking for a buff? Please everyone, bring this thread back on track. It’s not about crying that Phantom got nerfed too hard. It is about his playstyle not being unique at all in his current state.

Although Fletcher,Bushwhacker, Proxy do objectives faster than all other mercs, they still have a distinctive ability that sets them apart. You will always see a good fletcher retreat and set up sticky bomb traps. While a proxy will defend any objective with her mines. Bushwhacker will have his turret set up in a defensive postition. Nobody can replace their play styles. But many can easily do what Phantom does.

You people forget that Phantom is almost invisible while standing still. Edge corners while stealthing and you will get the advantage everytime.

I’ve managed to do that more than one with mercs other than Phantom. No need to be invisible to not be seen in corners. People tend to dash by fast without even noticing what’s happening in the corner of their screens.

[Gi.Am]

–snip–

I’ve managed to do that more than one with mercs other than Phantom. No need to be invisible to not be seen in corners. People tend to dash by fast without even noticing what’s happening in the corner of their screens.

indeed standing still in corners is fastpaced shooter, sneaking 101. The second lesson is timing the moment an open space is clear and rushing through as fast as you can. Thats why you ususally get flanked by Proxy and not Rhino.

Which is another thing that rubs me slightly the wrong way with Phantoms stealth mechanics (and stealth shooters in general but thats another story).
Because he is not that fast to begin with (and for the record I don’t think he needs to be faster), he actually has to relay on his invisibility to get through open spaces, since gamelogic (unlike what you see good sneaky players do, in games without invis) dictates that slow movement is sneakier, you become less visible by moving slower. Which in the end means that instead of rushing through open spaces, you gotta move through them at a snails pace (making you late to the party and giving enemies plenty time to spot you).

Short addition to sitting in a corner. Doing it cloaked can be worse, than doing it without, without it people might walk right past you. With cloak they get a nice audio que telling them, that they should maybe check their surrounding for a Phantom.

[Kaos88]

“The concept of stepping back and hipfiring is completely lost to you isn’t it.”

Im not talking about seeing them 1st. We are blatantly talking about flanking and i said if the cloak was the way it was before which was near impossible to see.

[Vulcan]

Im just gonna throw a suggestion out there, Not sure if it’s been said because im a lazy shit who refuses to read this entire discussion, But how i think Phantom can be Fixed,

Make him Full Melee, Give the majority of his Loadouts the Katana (Since it’s unique to him) and give him a Pistol, Maybe even a Machine pistol as a primary. Somewhat like Sparks except his Primary would be the Pistol/Machine Pistol, Secondary being the Melee (Most likely Katana)

I was a fairly Phantom exclusive player when he has added, and he was somewhat OP, If you were blind. Most people could see him through his cloak even before they made his “Cloak” just a shield. The Melee also needs to be fixed, considering fighting a Proxy/Aura Close Quarters Melee isnt very find with their agility advantage.

He just needs to be moved to a Stealth Melee class. Make the Cloak significantly less Visible, so he could be an Actual stealth character. The current Cooldown for the Cloak is fine, I agree with the increase but they destroyed this “Stealth” Merc.

This may be taking it a little too far but i feel like as a Ninja, his Speed should probably be Higher… That may be an unpopular opinion but im just throwing it out there.

So, Primary Pistol/Machine Pistol, Secondary Melee (Katana), Make Cloak less visible, Maybe increase Speed, and possibly decrease Health if that would help make him less “OP”.

One last thing, I only say an increase to Speed because as of the moment, Phantom has no role other than killing, which he cant do very well right now… So he could easily be an objective runner like Proxy/Aura.

Just my Suggestions

[BushDweller]

[quote=“Vulcan;59886”]
Make him Full Melee, Give the majority of his Loadouts the Katana (Since it’s unique to him) )[/quote]

Just saying… The katana isn’t Unique to him, they said more characters may get it

[Vulcan]

[quote=“BushDweller;59888”][quote=“Vulcan;59886”]
Make him Full Melee, Give the majority of his Loadouts the Katana (Since it’s unique to him) )[/quote]

Just saying… The katana isn’t Unique to him, they said more characters may get it
[/quote]

I realize this but for the moment it is Unique to him.

[Vulcan]

Im just gonna post my idea again, but summarize it.

Instead of having an SMG, Pistol and Melee, Give him either a Pistol/Machine Pistol as a Primary and Melee as secondary. Nothing else, almost just as Sparks, Making him a fairly Melee only class, Make his cloak significantly Less Visible as he was made as a “Stealth” class, now he’s supposedly a shitty Tank. Maybe even increase Speed, as he is a Ninja, And Decrease Health if necessary.

Yeah

[watsyurdeal]

Just take a hint from TF2 and make the cloak 100% invisible. Keep the armor if you want since he’ll need it once Red Eye comes out, but make it so he can not attack while cloaked. Phantom can only attack, plant, revive, etc, when he’s uncloaked.

This is perfect because it gives Phantom’s the stealth they need, and it gives him the counter play people want since he has to reveal himself first before he attacks.

Give him a cloak and decloak speed of about 0.5 seconds respectively, and bam, perfect stealth class that get behind the enemy from right under their nose, and has plenty of options to kill them with, the katana and smg should be plenty.

Though I wonder if he needs a secondary ability.

[Ronan]

People keep saying ‘he’s invisible’

You must be seeing something I’m not, because anyone with a single eye can see that he’s far from invisible, he’s a guy with a sheet thrown over his head.

“I can flank good with him”

That’s nice, do you a want a cookie to go along with the typical ego posts stroking their metaphorical wieners. Yes, he can flank, but so can any other merc, he’s JUST like any other merc right now, because his cloak is that visible. It’s no different. And you really can’t say that it is. I’ve done two games, one as Bushwacker, and the other as Phantom. In the Phantom game I went 14/6 and the Bushwacker one I went 14/8. Flanking only. Using the kek10. I used the cloak on Phantom, and I didn’t use the turret on Bushwacker. The only reason I didn’t have the 2 deaths Bushwacker had is because my ‘cloak’ provided a bit of padding before the bullets tore into me. It didn’t assist my ability in flanking in the slightest. THAT’S the problem people don’t recognize. The cloak should let you sneak past people without it’s only use being a temporary bullet sponge.

[Ronan]

@Watsyurdeal

Something I’ve suggested and will suggest until the day I die is the the fact that Phantom should get something like the Payday 2 crew gets. The ability to ‘mark’ someone during his cloaked duration. This would be on a charged-based system, and it’d have 2-3 charges. Phantom uses a charge to mark out crucial targets whilst being cloaked, haling to his ‘recon’ based title. Let marked enemies be shown through walls for a set duration. Because right now, it’s as if Phantom just has a sheet thrown over his head, thinking he’s invisible. It’s not stealthy whatsoever.

To add those things, though. The cooldown and visibility of the cloak will need to be fixed. Maybe add the health back to 120, as with the shield in it’s current place, that nerf was rather hefty. Sure, he can still tank sniper shots as advertised in his rolecall, so, I can’t complain all that much.

What’s sad is that a lot of people just got upset about Phantom instead of wanting to learn how to counter him, which, indeed, there were quite a few ways. IE; when old-Phantom rushed you with his katana during his cloak, his cloak doesn’t last forever, so, people saying they waste entire mags into it before he kills them because they attacked him with his DAMAGE SOAKING ARMOR. That’s what it does, made him get close. All I did, and I killed any Phantom that’d come up to me, was… walk backwards. The right-click that they’d try to hit with had a very short range, and even the swing. Walk backwards and aim for the head, in that close of a range, headshots should be a breeze.

Which, is where I understand the “move slower with katana” nerf came in, but, if that was added, then in my eyes, some of the other nerfs weren’t. Which, luckily, they said they’re looking into announcing some news for another melee change this upcoming week, along with a new merc(maybe). I’m hoping that it’s Red Eye, so they can gather data on how he does against Phantom, how much of a hard counter he is to him, etc, and they can buff Phantom accordingly. I mean, Red Eye has 120 health, why can’t Phantom? I mean, Red Eye is literally a direct counter to him. He should’ve been released before any nerfs happened in my eyes.

TL;DR Change the visibility and cooldowns back. Maybe health. Add a ‘spotter’ based ability.

[shockingSpout]

After the July 22 update many things where changed bugs fixed characters “balanced” one thing that caught my eye was the extensive list of not tweaks but nerfs to the character phantom most of which I’m ok with because he didn’t need to have 120 HP and the extra 4 seconds on refractive armors cool down where kinda needed to appease the community which stated that he was op but by making him more visible while mobile just destroyed his playability his guns are not the best and his only saving grace was his cloak and katana/knife even before the nerf it was relatively easy to see phantom while he was moving but now his cloak can really only be used as a shield for bad situations because he’s too easy to see being more visible now while walking then he was pre-update while sprinting he already had almost no objective use but this dashes even those low hopes of being useful I would like this to be considered and to hear anyone else’s feed back on this subject as well because he was my favorite merc and now I can’t even use him in game

[impressiveAlligator]

There’s no doubt at this point that Phantom was overnerfed. He plays like a shadow of his former self. I honestly think that the best way to fix him, is to split him into two characters.

A charging Samurai: Legionnaire
And a sneaking Ninja: Phantom

The overarching issue with phantom was that he filled two roles perfectly. The balls-to-the-walls face hunter (SMOrc) who ran into the enemy line causing silly chaos, stabbing left and right. The second role is a stealthy backstabber, using the cloak to get behind the enemy, killing the support, and simultaneously using his invisibility to assist his team.

Legionnaire would have a melee weapon, not as strong as the Katana, but a higher range, and a Riot shield. Along with that, a single shot secondary. His ability would be “Charge!” In which he shoots off in a target direction, knocking back enemies. It would have a 30 second cooldown, 15 if you do not collide with any targets. Cannot be used while carrying objectives. High health, low normal movespeed.

Phantom is the same as the current skillset, only with 90 health, higher movespeed and much more potent cloak. Played as a stealthy assassin. 10 second cloak, 10 second cooldown, with the same scaling. His cloak would be very lightly affected by movement, uncloaked by attack and if a kill is made, the cloak cooldown is instantly done. A stealthy backstabber class.

[Ronan]

As of today on the Dev Stream with Red Eye being released, one of the things that the hosts said is that “they’re happy where Phantom currently sits”, now, I know that doesn’t necessarily mean a lot as Splash Damage has been good with listening to the community over themselves at times, and I hope that’s the case here. I love Phantom, as everyone knows who’s seen my post, but, I’m sick and tired of feeling like the only way to use him right now is use the gun, and not the katana and cloak in a stealthy way.

Most Phantom players are being forced to use the cloak to flank and absorb damage, followed up by the gun. No use of the katana at all.

But, I won’t get too winded into this issue. As stated, Splash Damage has been good in listening to the community over what they may think is ‘okay’. I mean, they thought Phantom was ‘okay’ to release in the first place, and they changed him from there, and I hope with Red Eye’s release, and when his tweaks come, Phantom’s will too, or before such preferably.

@MissMurder

If you could, whenever you feel 100% better, be sure to give us updates about our beloved/hated ghosty-ghost

… Who really isn’t a ghost now, more like a guy with a sheet tossed over his head.

[Amerika]

[quote=“BushDweller;59740”][quote=“Azure;59651”]

1.You keep on saying you play him as a gunner which pretty much defeats the point of picking Phantom over any Merc. You rather rely on RNG to get a kill which any other class can do better at.

2. Phantom is RECON and Fragger is ASSAULT http://dirtybomb.gamepedia.com/Mercs
   They are and should be completely different in play styles.

3. Why do you keep trying to dismiss the other classes obviously better abilities to make Phantom sound better??? You sound like someone with a serious case of buyers remorse…[/quote]

4. RNG? Huh? How does RNG have a role in this at all? Using a gun, how does that defeat the point of phantom? The point of phantom currently is being able to flank and get around the enemy easier.

5. Vasilli is RECON and Fragger is ASSAULT??? They both use guns???
   Redeye is RECON and Fragger is ASSAULT??? They both have throwables+guns???
   Whats your point? A recon class isn’t tied to a specific weapon lol

6. Huh…? Phantoms ability is great, if I could go invisible with any class, I would.[/quote]

He simply doesn’t want to post rationally. Making up things to prove a weak arguments makes this discussion not worth it. I like good discussions…not zealotry. Some people will say anything to try and get what they want regardless of the rational or logic behind the words.

[BushDweller]

[quote=“Amerika;60591”][quote=“BushDweller;59740”][quote=“Azure;59651”]

1.You keep on saying you play him as a gunner which pretty much defeats the point of picking Phantom over any Merc. You rather rely on RNG to get a kill which any other class can do better at.

2. Phantom is RECON and Fragger is ASSAULT http://dirtybomb.gamepedia.com/Mercs
   They are and should be completely different in play styles.

3. Why do you keep trying to dismiss the other classes obviously better abilities to make Phantom sound better??? You sound like someone with a serious case of buyers remorse…[/quote]

4. RNG? Huh? How does RNG have a role in this at all? Using a gun, how does that defeat the point of phantom? The point of phantom currently is being able to flank and get around the enemy easier.

5. Vasilli is RECON and Fragger is ASSAULT??? They both use guns???
   Redeye is RECON and Fragger is ASSAULT??? They both have throwables+guns???
   Whats your point? A recon class isn’t tied to a specific weapon lol

6. Huh…? Phantoms ability is great, if I could go invisible with any class, I would.[/quote]

He simply doesn’t want to post rationally. Making up things to prove a weak arguments makes this discussion not worth it. I like good discussions…not zealotry. Some people will say anything to try and get what they want regardless of the rational or logic behind the words.[/quote]

You are a mod eh?

I like you

[tulipRowboat]

I thought of a couple things that may make phantom a bit more competent at what he does.

1: give him a few seconds of 100% invisibility which cannot be seen by the naked eye. After about 2~3 seconds or so, he goes back to his regular cloaking.

2: Give him faster draw speed so he can quickly switch from melee to his ranged weapons without dying instantly. As it stands now, if a phantom comes at you with a sword, he can hit you once, you turn around and start shooting him, and hes normally dead before he can kill you.

Many a time a Phantom could have killed me if he had pulled out his gun after landing the first melee hit, rather than trying to chase me as I’m shooting him.

If he had faster draw speed, it would give players an incentive to use his guns more often rather than focusing only on melee.

These two suggestions would buff him, without making him an OP insta kill merc with with no skill involved.