PC Gamer Interview with Tripwire President, John Gibson

(EnderWiggin.DA.) #1

Thought about posting this in the off topic section but I find some of the points John Gibson makes could be more freely discussed here. In the article they compare RO2 and CoD but I think there is a parallel discussion for DB and RTCW/ET/ETQW. I kind of expect there will be a lot of SD dev +1s.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/13/call-of-duty-red-orchestra-2-interview/2/

What did they [gamers] complain about?
Gibson: It’s the gameplay mechanics that they become used to. The way that players instantly accelerate when they move, they don’t build up speed. “The weapons really don’t have a lot of power” [in RO2]. They’re all very weak. The way they handle… They’re like: “I hate Red Orchestra, I can’t play it.” Well, why? “Because the guy doesn’t move like he does in Call of Duty. Call of Duty has great movement.” Why is it great? “Because it just is, I just like the way it works.” So you don’t like the momentum system in Red Orchestra? “Yeah, it sucks, it’s clunky, it’s terrible.” Well, why? “It’s just because I’m used to this.”

That sounds familiar…

And really, watching some of these guys play… one of the things that Call of Duty does, and it’s smart business, to a degree, is they compress the skill gap. And the way you compress the skill gap as a designer is you add a whole bunch of randomness. A whole bunch of weaponry that doesn’t require any skill to get kills. Random spawns, massive cone fire on your weapons. Lots of devices that can get kills with zero skill at all, and you know, it’s kind of smart to compress your skill gap to a degree. You don’t want the elite players to destroy the new players so bad that new players can never get into the game and enjoy it. I’m looking at you, Dota.

I have honestly been wondering about this with DB. Can a reasonable number of gamers adapt to DB’s objective modes and shooting mechanics? Do they have the patience for spawn timers and no squad spawns? How can SD highlight the nuances of DB to new players so they don’t just play the game for 5 minutes and uninstall? In short explain the facets of the game before the frustration sets in so new players know why they died and think “I know what I did wrong and I know what to improve in my play.”

(Ashog) #2

Well, there is not much choice I am afraid, it is either an old skool shooter or this (see interview). I guess we know what SD officially dedicated themselves to with this game. So throw away the doubts, be reasonable! :slight_smile:

(Hyperg) #3

You don’t want the elite players to destroy the new players so bad that new players can never get into the game and enjoy it

This has pretty the same amount of logic as “I can never really play tennis, 'cause Federer will destroy me”. Good players have their own interests to pursue and as long as that’s properly fueled (this is where the issue is, not giving me a tennis rocket that shoots 10 balls at the same time), everyone will enjoy the game and gather experience. Make it easy to setup tournaments and ladders and stuff and a self-regulating skill reference scale will emerge for everyone to relate to (pretty much like the division system in the TF2 euroleague).

Having said that, it’s obviously good business to sell as much as you can :slight_smile:

(Anti) #4

We’re very conscious that some FPS games have achieved the success they have by lowering the skill gap and it makes sense, but we believe we can maintain that gap and still have a game that is enjoyable for all if we build a few key features to allow it. I think the MOBA games are a very good example of how this can be achieved.

(ImageOmega) #5

Regarding movement it is not that Dirty Bomb does not feel like x, y, or z game, but that you don’t feel as precisely in control of your character as you’d want or expect. My biggest goto example is always Quake 3 or QuakeLive because you really feel like you have control of your character and getting hit won’t slow you down either. Maybe you get knocked back by a rocket, but that is completely different from a bullet slowing you down. I couldn’t imagine how god awful the game would be if getting hit by the lightning gun slowed you down instead of pushing.

Different games and different mechanics? Sure. I buy into that. I think a lot of other players do as well. That is why we don’t see rampant “bring back strafe jumping!” posts. People are at peace with using sprint. What is odd in the movement is the jump height as well as the strafing speed. I think w/ the new patch the strafing from left to right may be a bit snappier. There was one point in DB where you would literally halt then start to accelerate the other direction. That type of movement is awful.

The thing is I think Splash Damage has a lot of their ideas in line with ours. They have some other voices they are listening to as well, so it becomes a discussion about what is best to bridge the gap of the gaming communities instead of “skill”. Regardless, we are here for a reason, so we should be expressing our opinions on movement. And, if we feel the best example is game x, y, or z then that is our reference point, so that there is a concrete benchmark instead of theorycrafting.

(tokamak) #6

Say about COD what you will, but EVERYTHING about it feels perfect. The movement as well as the guns. It just sucks you in the action.

Without the fast regeneration it would also be a great setting for ET-style games. In a way SD can consider themselves lucky that they never fully embarked on that.

(Hyperg) #7

EVERYTHING about it feels perfect. It just sucks you in the action.

That’s why we have drug addicts xD. It doesn’t necessarily make it good for your health tho. CoD will never be my cup of tea because it puts too much emphasis on a single individual rather than the team. It’s how they got up, no argument there, it’s ofc easier to be the hero by yourself, rather than working with your team, provided you’re given the proper tools. Even some of the cup matches I’ve watched emit that strong scent of 1v1 pwnage, rather than team vs team.

Could that framework of game and weapon mechanics work as a base to construct an awesome team and objective - based shooter? You’re right abt that, it certainly could, but it will obviously put a dent in their sales figures xD

(Bangtastic) #8

@DB movement: compared to current games, its already a lot better. I guess one of the old CoD’s had great movement. Black ops 2 it gives you the feeling having big stone on your back, which only allows you to sprint 5 metres, then stop for 3 seconds and so on. This is the worst clunkiest acceleration movement in a game i have ever seen. You will never get momentum and wont come in a flow. If you see the running animation in multiplayer… reminds me planet of the apes, stupiest anim i ever saw xD Especially CoD and BF3 have strong preconceived notions about other games, dont forget that.

Back to topic: It really depends which games you have played before you play DB. Most ppl will compare it to their last shooters they played quite a time.
What i hate most about F2P games is that they looks somwhere cheap, and it plays like the 10000 clone of a fps.
Also i dont like the completely overloaded in game menus. Customize this, buy one million different items with one million different stats.
Like Blacklight Retribution actually i like it, but it stops me playing cause of the heavy cluttered overload of information. I dont want to read through all that stuff and understand how things work, since i dont waste too much time to get started. But then there are additional tutorial tips everywhere (why i already played this game in the past!). Menu and art style is so exhausting for me. For most F2P (fps) games its the same overload, menu/stats/items/coins etc. combined with a poor game itself.
Maybe a subtle factor for you but for me it decides whether i start playin a F2P game.

Some Moba games like LoL have nice menus, the impression it gives me that its plain, tidy and clear and ofc its a simple game in its core! If you dont learn some chars and all items by heart, you are lost.

I dont want to be already overwhelmed when only staring at the start menu screen.

(Loffy) #9

One of the biggest threats to DB is the following scenario: I sometimes, as engineer, try and get the EV moving, but I am all “alone”. There are 2-3 enemies defending it, and my team is… well… not exactly around the EV. I miss close quarter support, as the engi. Woa, I sound like the big hero here :slight_smile: Well, I am sure that more players than I have felt this. However, when this scenario occurs, for new players (first time testing DB), there is a risk that they leave the game. Just my two cents.

(Hyperg) #10

I feel your pain there. When I’m playing a support class and I see another dude trying to accomplish something, like in the scenario you described, an engi trying to do his job, If I can’t find a vantage point nearby, most often I will try to block incoming fire to that dude, while firing back at the attackers. Even if I get killed in the process and the engi succeeds, I feel like the risk got rewarded. Ppl wanting and watching K/D-s on their scoreboards will never understand this. I’m not saying that dying recklessly is something which should be overlooked when trying to help your team, but there is indeed a risk game which a lot of ppl don’t even consider getting into.

(Humate) #11

In DB I also find that being the only aggressive player on a team of pure support players, tends to prompt rage. You find no one on your team is actually shooting, strangest thing. :slight_smile:

(tokamak) #12

That’s only the health regeneration and ease of obtaining your own weapons and ammo. A few simple amendments and it becomes a team-shooter.

(Hyperg) #13

Creating some dependencies between classes is a first step but it’s not the only one. And even if we’re talking about those, we’ve got a pretty big pile of posts about just the health packs and the ammo packs about DB which is already geared towards teamplay , approaching the problems from several angles. I just don’t see how all this falls into a “simple amendment” category.

(warbie) #14

^ add to that that not all of us like the feel of CoD. Clunky with random weapons - after years of Q3/RTCW/ET it’s like someone has stripped away all the fluidity of movement and precision in firing. CoD’s the fps equivalent of a big bouncy castle full of nerf guns.

(Ashog) #15

CoD = no skill needed for a kill. Serious Sam powered weapons. What is PERFECT about it? No go.

(Breo) #16

That’s exactly the point of the interview about players who thinks this way :slight_smile:

(scre4m.) #17

I totally agree with this guy who was interviewed. The only reason ppl play COD is that it does not require any skill, nor any teamwork, nor does this game have any depth or a long learning curve.
You can join a server absolutely stoned and still kick ass.^^

This might be a 30-minutes fun. But it is no game to play for long time.

the question is: do we want those cod players? I dont want them. just my personal opinion.
And I dont think SD wants them either ( although it would bring a lot of $), but they know they cannot convince a COD player that any game might be better than COD. so no $ at all for SD, but only a bad game.^^

this will be a rather old-school shooter, but still I hope it will attract some new payers, but the typical COD-player should not be the kind of player this game should look good to.

(Bangtastic) #18

Duty Calls - CoD in a nutshell^^ you must have played it, its free for download^^

The original ones were way better, ofc the background and environment were different at that time. I mean the main idea which provided CoD was kinda new back then, but today its totally overused and had become a routine. And CoD is the only shooter were i experience on every server offending swear words all the way voip and ingame chat lol. The last CoD was the fourth one, after that the game itself had become only a brand/label instrumentalized for marketing purposes and market shares.

(tokamak) #19

Skilled COD players consistently score (much) higher than non-skilled ones. And it makes sense, if what you did didn’t matter then players would feel without control and playing wouldn’t make sense.

It’s way to easy to dismiss this game as simple. It’s not. It’s mechanics are superb, it’s high-grade weaponised addictive entertainment. Concerning movement and shooting the game is awesome and anyone can get into it straight away. It’s only not tailored perfectly for objective and team-based gameplay. Still, if they wanted to they could easily shift some parameters and make it the perfect team-shooter and outclass the other games.

And as of now COD even seems to have better toys.

//youtu.be/rwRSYWAOdGo

All I’m saying is, stop being such snobs. It clouds your judgement. COD is not a cheap shooter, it’s mechanics are incredibly refined and intuitive which is the core reason that it is such a huge success. Don’t just dismiss it as a low skill-ceiling, if you’d actually take the time to have a go at it on a server you’ll see that skill IS something that is being rewarded. There are pro-players and it’s a huge e-sport.

I have complete confidence that SD is able to invent better gameplay. All I’m saying is that you really need to bring more to the table than a marginally different shooter because even in the toys department COD is outperforming right now.

(Ashog) #20

Your video shows nothing else to me than players 2-shot-instakilling each other with hilariously (it’s not even funny anymore) ovepowered weapons while walking (no movement skill involved). If I needed that, i’d go play some crap like CS-GO or similar, without paying 60 euro in the process just for looks and nice sounds.