PC controls - Keyboard layout

(Atavax) #201

with a mouse, with weapons that require high accuracy, there are professionals and amateurs that use extremely low mouse sensitivities in order of 20-30" for a 360 degree turn (if you can move your mouse within half a centimeter of where you want every time, the lower the sensitivity, the higher the accuracy). these players can do these 360 degree turns in a fraction of a second with the mouse through 2 or 3 large arm movements. I doubt trackballs can achieve this type of accuracy; if they got anywhere near that low a sensitivity, i would think they wouldn’t be able to make a 180 degree turn fast enough when needed to.

(H0RSE) #202

these players can do these 360 degree turns in a fraction of a second with the mouse through 2 or 3 large arm movements. I doubt trackballs can achieve this type of accuracy; if they got anywhere near that low a sensitivity, i would think they wouldn’t be able to make a 180 degree turn fast enough when needed to.

I can perform a 360 turn by moving my finger about an inch at my current settings. If I lower my settings and need to make big movements, I can just spin the ball, stop it when I get to where I need to be, and continue aiming seamlessly.

(Crytiqal) #203

If I move my index/middle finger, I find it more difficult not to move my other fingers then when I would move my wrist, which would keep my fingers relative to each other stationary, thus having them on the LMB, RMB without a hassle.

But each one has their liking I assume.

(Nail) #204

the one I had used thumb on ball, I prefer that over finger

(LyndonL) #205

I use one similar to the one Nail attached (Logitech) with work since I work in a surveillance style aircraft and need high precision with minimal space and resistance to turbulence. I find the trackball with the thumb very accurate, but still after using it for just under 5 years, I am still more accurate at speed with a laser mouse.

(Atavax) #206

the problem is every shooter enthusiast is going to think they’re accurate, whether they’re using a mouse with half an inch for a 360 or 40 inches for a 360 or a trackball or using a console controller; and they’re going to think that they turn fast enough, because if they didn’t, they wouldn’t be playing with that device set the way it is. and frankly, if a trackball did provide significant improvement or even comparable performance to the mouse in shooters, i very much doubt that #1 it wouldn’t be more prevalent in invite and pro level players, and #2 input device manufacturers wouldn’t come out with gaming centered trackballs.

(Senethro) #207

Interesting post and it made me realise something. Many players use low sensitivity because it allows them to be more precise as errors get smoothed out. However to make this work they need large mousemats.

Trackballs are used in places where large tracts of deskspace are unavailable. Since trackballs are like upside down mice, and the surface of your hand (or finger, going by some accounts) is always going to be smaller than a mousemat, it looks comparable to playing at 5cm/360.

I remember a poll on the old ETQW boards asking for cm/360 where nearly all the names I recognized as infantry players were above 15cm and only some of the tankers/fliers were below. If I’d played against more trackballers I’d be able to state with more confidence that its a bad control device for FPS but as my sample size is 3 I can’t do that. But just talking about it, I don’t see how anyone could be more than middling average skill with a trackball.

(H0RSE) #208

If I’d played against more trackballers I’d be able to state with more confidence that its a bad control device for FPS but as my sample size is 3 I can’t do that. But just talking about it, I don’t see how anyone could be more than middling average skill with a trackball.

Not that it means anything to you, but playing W:ET and RTCW with trackball, is what got me noticed and invited clans. I never signed up or ask to join any of the clans I played in, they approached me based on my performance - and these were all serious, competitive clans that enlisted in leagues, not just a group of guys that wanted to play for fun.

Since none of you really have experience playing FPS with a trackball (I’ve been doing it since Quake 3) all you really have is speculation and assumptions. I have used both mouse and trackball, and I find trackballs to be years ahead of mice, in terms of ease of use, comfort and overall performance.

(Senethro) #209

Ok, I’m even less convinced that a trackball can do fast FPS with tracking aim emphasis than other types of game. It would be just such an oddity that I’d have to see it in action. Can I get a duel against you in W:ET, TF2 or even QL? (I kind of know the campgrounds map from LANs)

(Atavax) #210

[QUOTE=H0RSE;252128]Not that it means anything to you, but playing W:ET and RTCW with trackball, is what got me noticed and invited clans. I never signed up or ask to join any of the clans I played in, they approached me based on my performance - and these were all serious, competitive clans that enlisted in leagues, not just a group of guys that wanted to play for fun.

Since none of you really have experience playing FPS with a trackball (I’ve been doing it since Quake 3) all you really have is speculation and assumptions. I have used both mouse and trackball, and I find trackballs to be years ahead of mice, in terms of ease of use, comfort and overall performance.[/QUOTE]

where did you get the impression that none of us have experience playing FPS with a trackball? in college i had a friend that used a trackball in shooters, and i tried it out. i have experience. I am just not an arrogant bastard who thinks because i tried something and i didn’t like it, it must be inferior to the thing i prefer, like someone else in this thread is.

being offered to clans in any old competitive league isn’t very impressive either.

(H0RSE) #211

where did you get the impression that none of us have experience playing FPS with a trackball? in college i had a friend that used a trackball in shooters, and i tried it out. i have experience.
Oh yes, you “tried it out.” You totally blew my argument out of the water - your “trying it out in college,” is totally the same as someone who has exclusively used one for around 10 years - for everything, not just FPS. Your statement is like saying, “I have experience driving stick shift - my dad let me park his car.” Yes, you really put me in my place on that one… /sarcasm.

I am just not an arrogant bastard who thinks because i tried something and i didn’t like it, it must be inferior to the thing i prefer, like someone else in this thread is.

lol, who’s being arrogant? I’m just making a statement. I used a mouse for years, before I even knew what a trackball was - then I tired one. And it was awesome. So now, when it comes to trackball vs mouse, trackball wins every time, at least for me.

It’s the same thing with vanilla vs chocolate ice cream. There’s nothing “arrogant” about me liking one over the other, I just think compared to vanilla, chocolate ice cream tastes like crap and compared to a trackball, a mouse just doesn’t compete. I’m not saying some with a mouse can’t beat a trackball user, I’m saying that fro me personally, I do much better in games using a trackball over a mouse.

(Mustang) #212

Had a go with a thumb trackball and didn’t get on very well with it (same one Nails posted I think)
Wouldn’t mind trying out a finger one though

(Atavax) #213

ok, well, how many competitve clans have to gotten into using nothing but a mouse? oh, but you’ve tried out using a mouse in shooters, so you know trackballs are better… that was my point.

(H0RSE) #214

[QUOTE=Atavax;252143]ok, well, how many competitve clans have to gotten into using nothing but a mouse? oh, but you’ve tried out using a mouse in shooters, so you know trackballs are better… that was my point.[/QUOTE] I have about 5 years experience using a mouse in shooters…

(Atavax) #215

[QUOTE=H0RSE;252141]
lol, who’s being arrogant? I’m just making a statement. I used a mouse for years, before I even knew what a trackball was - then I tired one. And it was awesome. So now, when it comes to trackball vs mouse, trackball wins every time, at least for me.

It’s the same thing with vanilla vs chocolate ice cream. There’s nothing “arrogant” about me liking one over the other, I just think compared to vanilla, chocolate ice cream tastes like crap and compared to a trackball, a mouse just doesn’t compete. I’m not saying some with a mouse can’t beat a trackball user, I’m saying that fro me personally, I do much better in games using a trackball over a mouse.[/QUOTE]

to me, this below quote is not saying you personally have a easier time with the trackball, but in general, the trackball is better for shooters.

[QUOTE=H0RSE;252006]
It is much easier, comfortable and more accurate moving just a finger, opposed to my whole hand, wrist, arm, etc. It’s also easier with button presses as well - for example, holding down the RMB (say for ironsights) while trying to aim and shoot with a mouse, can be a bit difficult. On my trackball, the buttons are independent from the ball (which is the only thing that moves) so performing an action like this is simple.[/QUOTE]

(Atavax) #216

what competitive clans have you gotten into using a mouse in shooters?

(H0RSE) #217

Oh, so now playing shooters online is not enough, I have to have “competitive experience,” to be a valid mouse user… Well, Father Time is a bitch, because I wasn’t even interested into the whole “clan/comp” scene, until after I started using trackballs.

So how many clans did I get into using a mouse? None.

  1. Even if I was invited, it was at a time when I didn’t care for it.
  2. I’m much better with the trackball.
(Atavax) #218

[QUOTE=H0RSE;252147]Oh, so now playing shooters online is not enough, I have to have “competitive experience,” to be a valid mouse user… Well, Father Time is a bitch, because I wasn’t even interested into the whole “clan/comp” scene, until after I started using trackballs.

So how many clans did I get into using a mouse? None.

  1. Even if I was invited, it was at a time when I didn’t care for it.
  2. I’m much better with the trackball.[/QUOTE]

its a simple bias. think of a class based game. people will typically play 1 or 2 classes in the game competitively. Only an idiot would ask a competitive player to compare a class he plays competitively with one he doesn’t. he’s only an expert on one; any reasonable person would look for someone who has competitive experience in both to compare them…

(Senethro) #219

Duel, Horse yes/no?

(H0RSE) #220

its a simple bias. think of a class based game. people will typically play 1 or 2 classes in the game competitively. Only an idiot would ask a competitive player to compare a class he plays competitively with one he doesn’t. he’s only an expert on one; any reasonable person would look for someone who has competitive experience in both to compare them…

Actually, it’s nothing like that. It just has to do with timing and coincidence.

Timing, because I happen to get interested in comp play after I started using a trackball and coincidence, for explaining how I started using a trackball in first place.

Once upon a time, a long time ago, I went in to use the computer. I looked at the desk and a strange device was sitting where the mouse once was. I said to my poops, “WTF is that thing?!” and he replied, “It’s a trackball. It like a big, upside down mouse.” From that day on, I used trackballs.

My decision to use a trackball was not a thought out, decisive process, with me eventually coming to the conclusion to buy one or try one out. If my pops never would have gotten that trackball, I most likely never would have used one, and would still be using a mouse today. I has nothing to do with me favoring the trackball because I played competitive with it and not with a mouse. I favor the trackball, because I think it is more comfortable, easier to use and I play better with it period - regardless if it is comp play or not. Even back when I first started using it, within a week I was playing the same or better with it in FPS games than I was with a mouse, which I had 5 or so years experience with.