[QUOTE=MrFunkyFunk;514104]Well now that Blizzard is making a moba-fps, maybe we can let them have the genre and get rid of all the existent/planned such-like features in DB to go back to a well-made classic team based shooter?
:stroggtapir:[/QUOTE]
splendid idea.
That is actually scratching an old TimeSpliiters like itch for me.
Won’t happen. DB is in a prison and they’re too far in development to change it. They’ll argue it, say I’m wrong but 2 years is more than enough time.
Actually, if you dig through my posts from last year or whatever I supported their idea for drastic changes to the game. The funny part, is my suggestions, though extreme, are damn near identical to what they’re doing in Overwatch. I even made a character up with a big shield that can barge through the choke points and essentially tank for the team.
Not everyone wants ET2. ET was a terrible game. I’d be down for RtCW 2 but even then I don’t think it would be largely successful with today’s gamers.
Today’s gamers don’t want to have to try hard to have fun. They want to hop in whenever they want, see some cool flashy abilities, and get easy frags.
In Overwatch, though the abilities look a bit over the top, you can see the creativity and the limitless design. That’s all we need to see to get an idea of what it will be like. It’s really hard to judge since all the abilities were used on non moving targets. It might not be as cheesy as it appears. Some of those abilities required you to track and it’s easy to track a non moving target.
In short - When I see DB, I see practice, set strats, a stagnant meta so to speak. Not much variation.
I see Overwatch and the combinations, team work, vertical angles etc. I see endless strats an ever evolving meta.
Of course this is all speculation without true testing but Blizzard doesn’t make **** games. They actually have a good track record and if you think they’re going to pull Overwatch after it was officially announced at Blizzcon I would say you are being really hopeful towards DB/SD because that’s not going to happen.
Oh but I agreed with your previous posts. I didn’t adress you. The drastic abilities is the ‘moba’ element indeed.
And I feel Blizzard is only just scraping the surface here. This trailer showed off the characters but knowing blizzard you’re going to see dynamic and interactive environments appear in no time.
Mind you, Heroes of the Storm isn’t profiling itself on the characters, those are just cosmetic and nostalgic. It’s selling point is that their moba offers much more than the usual three lane map that every moba plays on.
As for the trailer. Yeah I remember the TF2 trailer looking cheesy as hell as well, same here. Blizzard isn’t going to allow this game to turn into a big cheesy sheppard’s soup.
The irony of all this? The trailer reminded me more of QW than of any other game.
Blizzard’s Trailers are always good ,but doesn’t fully reflected the real actual gameplay
[video=youtube_share;FqnKB22pOC0]http://youtu.be/FqnKB22pOC0?list=UUlOf1XXinvZsy4wKPAkro2A[/video]
MOBAs aren’t easy frags or simple, and have been dwarfing FPS. It’s all about segregating the player base and spoon feeding them the idea that there’s more out there.
[QUOTE=strychzilla;514129]Actually, if you dig through my posts from last year or whatever I supported their idea for drastic changes to the game. The funny part, is my suggestions, though extreme, are damn near identical to what they’re doing in Overwatch. I even made a character up with a big shield that can barge through the choke points and essentially tank for the team.
Not everyone wants ET2. ET was a terrible game. I’d be down for RtCW 2 but even then I don’t think it would be largely successful with today’s gamers.
Today’s gamers don’t want to have to try hard to have fun. They want to hop in whenever they want, see some cool flashy abilities, and get easy frags.
In Overwatch, though the abilities look a bit over the top, you can see the creativity and the limitless design. That’s all we need to see to get an idea of what it will be like. It’s really hard to judge since all the abilities were used on non moving targets. It might not be as cheesy as it appears. Some of those abilities required you to track and it’s easy to track a non moving target.
In short - When I see DB, I see practice, set strats, a stagnant meta so to speak. Not much variation.
I see Overwatch and the combinations, team work, vertical angles etc. I see endless strats an ever evolving meta.
Of course this is all speculation without true testing but Blizzard doesn’t make **** games. They actually have a good track record and if you think they’re going to pull Overwatch after it was officially announced at Blizzcon I would say you are being really hopeful towards DB/SD because that’s not going to happen.[/QUOTE]
“You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to strychzilla again.”
[QUOTE=strychzilla;514129]…
In short - When I see DB, I see practice, set strats, a stagnant meta so to speak. Not much variation.
I see Overwatch and the combinations, team work, vertical angles etc. I see endless strats an ever evolving meta
…[/QUOTE]
I’d disagree with you somewhat here.
To refer to Blizzard in particular. Starcraft and DoTa/MOBAs… limited successful strategies in the end (per map) that ultimately relied on macro whoring skills. That has proven very successful for those core mechanics. But wasn’t that a key argument when RTS’ers were comparing the SC to C&C: Generals? SC and MOBAs (to date) ultimately do have a very heavy hand in stagnant gameplay. There is an ultimate strategy discovered and you MUST learn it/them if you want to be competitive, and any strategic deviation is a result of user error/ineptitude.
It didn’t make one better than the other (SC vs Generals), just different.
And I do recall a key complaint at one stage while we were in closed alpha (back when it was very W:ET-ish) from some being that the maps were too open, the harsh reality of real urban warfare was frustrating to some people. Too many alleys and ways to flank were the cause for stalemate matches… ie too many options basically.
Let’s assume both games come out perfectly (and I’d also disagree with you that Blizzard don’t make **** games… they can’t rely on their pre-Vivendi/Activision dream team legacy forever, and pretty art design can’t hide a lack of design innovation forever either, ie endless WoW expansions, SC2, D3). The endless strategies you see in Overwatch, the verticality… that is there in Overwatch, but DB still has the potential to be endlessly mutable mid-game, and that’s a vastly different strategic dynamic, one that still sets it apart from practically every other multiplay FPS, and its one that appeals more to the likes of myself and a few others.
The only other FPS model I can think of off the top of my head that forced you to really think on your feet because of the lack of map-based asymmetry were the original Rainbow 6’s, and I suppose the truest-to-form maps in the Counter Strike series… that element of “the real world isn’t fair” makes serious strategising more of a challenge, harder to grasp, but far deeper in its final satisfaction. Splash explored that element of environmental dependence rather well in ETQW and somewhat well in Brink (it’s impossible to gauge Brink map design properly now because it didn’t survive long enough to really be played/explored properly… I know I enjoyed it a lot with the folks on the private server I was playing on at the time), so its not like they’re shooting in the dark.
It could be argued Overwatch with its twitchy arena looking gameplay could only encourage more lone-wolf gameplay. Every genuinely team-based FPS these days has to weather that storm… the onslaught of CoD heroes that are incapable of adapting to a real team dynamic. It certainly killed Brink regardless of what many people criticise in the game… the quality of play between a server of clueless heroes and a server FULL of seasoned W:ET/ETQW collaborators was night and day.
After looking into the info on the individual Overwatch heroes, there are several design choices that I appreciate and would like to see applied more to DB’s mercs:
[ul]
[li] The heroes are all very distinct from one another, even those that have some similarities (e.g. the two dual-wielding gunslingers) have enough differences in character look, weapons and abilities to give the impression of significantly different gameplay (in this case Tracer being all about speed while Reaper feels more brutish and tankier). Cannot say the same in DB about say Skyhammer vs Stoker vs Arty…[/li]
[li]3 or more unique abilities for each hero in addition to their distinct weapons. A single ability does not give a lot of depth or personality to the DB mercs.[/li]
[li]At least one of each hero’s abilities is not about dealing damage. Currently in DB all the engie, assault (except Thunder) and fops abilities are about dealing damage (and yes, I consider ammo resupply as damage-related).[/li]
[li]Movement abilities, shields, buffs and debuffs. None of those in DB at the moment.[/li]
[li]Actively sustained abilities, not just things you fire-and-forget. Shields, buffs and debuffs that fall in this category usually require team coordination to maximize their value which is a good thing IMO. [/li]
[li]Counters (e.g. Symmetra’s gun has a charged mode that bypass shields while Pharah’s concussion blast causes extra damage against them; Tracer’s recall can probably get her out of trouble when running into traps that are not insta-kill). No such interactions in DB right now. [/li][/ul]
Any and all of these would help reinforce both the uniqueness of the mercs and the synergies between them.
The trade-off that’s being made here is the depth vs width of a class niche. It’s obvious that Overwatch has incredibly deep and narrow niches while DB still has very broad and shallow niches.
So that’s what you mean with ‘mutability’. In DB any merc can still shoot his way out of a well crafted stategy against him. A couple of well placed headshots nullify all the abilites. Where as in a game like Overwatch (I assume) there’s going to be situations that are already determined by the class dynamic.
My problem with most of this comparisson though, is that this is still evaluating games on a duel/combat basis. Shooters can be much more than twitchy tapdances or rocker-paper-scissor fights. A tactical shooter, or hell, any genre with the word ‘tactical’ in the title is ultimately about increasing the leverage on the flow of the match. Tactical games are rarely about winning immediately (through either a headshot or well placed counter), it’s always about gradually increasing your advantage.
And that’s what Overwatch is threatening with. Blizzard is going to bring tons of abilities to the table that ensure that this shooter is about map-control and team synergy. And with that in place the underlying niches can be tweaked however they like. Tweak mobility a bit, change the TTK, the creativity and tactical depth will always be there.
I’m not saying that Overwatch needs to be emulated and I’m certainly not saying that this game should be distanced from. Just that Overwatch is doing a lot of things that DB should’ve been doing already.
[QUOTE=Djiesse;514152]After looking into the info on the individual Overwatch heroes, there are several design choices that I appreciate and would like to see applied more to DB’s mercs:
[ul]
[li] The heroes are all very distinct from one another, even those that have some similarities (e.g. the two dual-wielding gunslingers) have enough differences in character look, weapons and abilities to give the impression of significantly different gameplay (in this case Tracer being all about speed while Reaper feels more brutish and tankier). Cannot say the same in DB about say Skyhammer vs Stoker vs Arty…[/li]
[li]3 or more unique abilities for each hero in addition to their distinct weapons. A single ability does not give a lot of depth or personality to the DB mercs.[/li]
[li]At least one of each hero’s abilities is not about dealing damage. Currently in DB all the engie, assault (except Thunder) and fops abilities are about dealing damage (and yes, I consider ammo resupply as damage-related).[/li]
[li]Movement abilities, shields, buffs and debuffs. None of those in DB at the moment.[/li]
[li]Actively sustained abilities, not just things you fire-and-forget. Shields, buffs and debuffs that fall in this category usually require team coordination to maximize their value which is a good thing IMO. [/li]
[li]Counters (e.g. Symmetra’s gun has a charged mode that bypass shields while Pharah’s concussion blast causes extra damage against them; Tracer’s recall can probably get her out of trouble when running into traps that are not insta-kill). No such interactions in DB right now. [/li][/ul]
Any and all of these would help reinforce both the uniqueness of the mercs and the synergies between them.[/QUOTE]
I would much rather each merc have one ability that makes it stand out and defines the playstyle in some way, than have each merc fiddle with multiple abilities, buffs, debuffs, etc.
I think at its core, DB is an FPS shooter, and not a MOBA, which this overwatch game will be. Pretty clear to me, if you look at the reaper’s special ability, it seems to be some short-range ‘deall damage to everyone around you’, I wouldn’t be surprised if those multiple abilities per character are all kinds of buffs&debuffs, which also disrupt the flow of the game, just like brink’s ‘buff friendlies gun’.
Rather than try to emulate a game with a bunch of players running around and clicking their ‘kill all opponents now’ buttons, i’d rather see DB stick to its guns, and become a team-based fast-paced shooter.
On the subject of counters: stoker’s flames are countered by red eye’s smoke, which is countered by explosives, so there is that. Nader counters turrets and rhino+healing station combos; just that most counters are not in your face, but come out during gameplay.
[QUOTE=tokamak;514153]The trade-off that’s being made here is the depth vs width of a class niche. It’s obvious that Overwatch has incredibly deep and narrow niches while DB still has very broad and shallow niches.
So that’s what you mean with ‘mutability’. In DB any merc can still shoot his way out of a well crafted stategy against him. A couple of well placed headshots nullify all the abilites. Where as in a game like Overwatch (I assume) there’s going to be situations that are already determined by the class dynamic.
…[/QUOTE]
Yes exactly. I see DB being in a state where the choice of a more intelligent player has the potential to turn the tide just by re-evaluating the map-&-match in the moment, and not having to worry too much about who made what character choice, and if the entire team is now irreversibly hobbled. Player intelligence should trump class dynamic in the hierarchy of play/flow/strategy.
However, I do think the class abilities should play a more significant role than they currently seem to. I hate to refer to W:ET and ETQW again, but class specifics really gave people purpose back then, and the last time I played DB I didn’t feel it really mattered what I was playing all that much. It definitely didn’t seem to matter in the grand scheme of the objectives… and that is something people SHOULD care more about in their selection.
It shouldn’t be a game changing choice for the team as a whole, but it should be a personal investment that motivates the player while they’ve spawned as their one-in-three choice. A motivation to play better, think smarter. The class specific XP gain per map/campaign was a very powerful motivator in the ET games… DB really, REALLY needs an evolution of the psychological/intellectual effect that mechanic achieved to be implemented into what is there now, and it has to be an in-the-moment mechanic much like how the class XP made you invest for a campaign in various strategies and activities because you wanted to try unlocking dual pistols first, or super-covie (I remember that changed often depending on the people I was playing with, and against, and which campaign, and etc… and how many alternated their play style as well).
Then again so far the abilities of overwatch characters seem to overlap and interact to such an extend that they might as well be considered one ability. Which is basically what I think Dijesse is trying to say. The ability should be applicable in multiple contexts yielding different results.
[QUOTE=Djiesse;514152]
[li]3 or more unique abilities for each hero in addition to their distinct weapons. A single ability does not give a lot of depth or personality to the DB mercs.[/li]
[li]At least one of each hero’s abilities is not about dealing damage. Currently in DB all the engie, assault (except Thunder) and fops abilities are about dealing damage (and yes, I consider ammo resupply as damage-related).[/li]
[li]Movement abilities, shields, buffs and debuffs. None of those in DB at the moment.[/li]
[li]Actively sustained abilities, not just things you fire-and-forget. Shields, buffs and debuffs that fall in this category usually require team coordination to maximize their value which is a good thing IMO. [/li]
[li]Counters (e.g. Symmetra’s gun has a charged mode that bypass shields while Pharah’s concussion blast causes extra damage against them; Tracer’s recall can probably get her out of trouble when running into traps that are not insta-kill). No such interactions in DB right now. [/li][/LIST]
Any and all of these would help reinforce both the uniqueness of the mercs and the synergies between them.[/QUOTE]
All this things transform the gameplay to other thing than an FPS (S for Shooter !). I don’t say that Overwatch will be bad, I want to play to it. But for DB I want to have a FPS (S for Shooter !!!), and not a game where the skill is to launch the abilities at the right moment.
For me, it’s really two different kinds of gameplay.
And even if the gameplay with abilities like in a MOBA attracts more the players, I think it could be a very bad decision from SD to change DB in this kind of game.
They can’t win if they attack the exact same market of Blizzard (marketing monster).
DB should be the Overwatch for the FPS players 
What stands out so far is that almost all the abilities are context sensitive. There’s always a better or worse time and place to use them.
That’s where Brink went wrong. Tons of abilities but for most of them it didn’t really matter how and when you applied them, all that mattered was that you applied them.
Overwatch is made with what SD didn’t care much but Blizzard know their importance .
Class,Story ,Mercs doesn’t look alike (easy ID) ,Maps in different locations,parkour style (Brink),zip wire mech,interaction/dynamic ,jet-packs : mix together add WoW flavor,some crazyness and cook until well done 
Like I said many times if you don’t do it …other studios will …
I’m still keeping hope:D
[QUOTE=Erkin31;514163]All this things transform the gameplay to other thing than an FPS (S for Shooter !). I don’t say that Overwatch will be bad, I want to play to it. But for DB I want to have a FPS (S for Shooter !!!), and not a game where the skill is to launch the abilities at the right moment.
For me, it’s really two different kinds of gameplay.
And even if the gameplay with abilities like in a MOBA attracts more the players, I think it could be a very bad decision from SD to change DB in this kind of game.
They can’t win if they attack the exact same market of Blizzard (marketing monster).
DB should be the Overwatch for the FPS players :)[/QUOTE]
It looks like most of the offensive abilities are skill shots, not just activate and you win. Some of the ultimates look easier to use but require more timing since it has a long cooldown. But the hardest hitting stuff does look like it requires aim and precision to pull off.
They are aiming for a broader audience than just twitch shooters but they are support oriented and still have skill shots like the mercy (the flying medic) still has a lot of movement based skills like flying and her pistol looks like it requires precision and even aiming ahead since it doesn’t look like its hit scan. But what makes her accessible is the heal beam, which can be used to as a damage buff alternatively.