Overly-complex maps

(acutepuppy) #1

I’ve been hearing a common worry from discussing Dirty Bomb before I joined the alpha, and it has turned into a very real concern among some folks in the alpha servers the last few days.

Does anyone feel the maps are just way too full of entrance and exit points?

I think that ET:QW had some of the most replayable maps I’ve ever loaded, and it seemed a large part of that was unless it was a place of strategic significance, or part of an objective, you really didn’t waste time inside. When you did go inside, they were impressive structures that felt like something you could assault as a team, or hunker down and defend, not just this big mess of zig-zagging turns.

Right now Dirty Bomb has enough alley ways to fit all of New York’s crime, every apartment has a hole in the wall that leads to a shortcut through a corner market, and every objective point seems to have an entrance for every player. It’s bad for new players, it’s bad for nail-biting moments, it’s confusing as a spectator. These maps are not bad at all, they just need drastic simplifying in my opinion.

It really just rips apart the teamplay dynamic when you can expect enemies to just pop out from somewhere. It honestly feels like playing Doom 3, after awhile the game is just a fluid motion of deaths to eventual defeat or victory.

Not only that, but it really takes the fun out of the solid gunplay, when you’re always fighting enemies up in your face. If you do manage to get in a ranged or semi-open area conflict, someone pops out of a vent cover and shoves a knife in your face. I was trying to pin down why DB felt claustrophobic in comparison to other titles, I think this is a big bit of it.

I am yet to see one environment that gives me the excitement that Sewer did after a just a couple play-throughs. That was a map that featured one main entrance, and a couple side ones that took additional C4 charges. Chokepoints that fun just aren’t in DB yet. It’s not that the maps need to be severely limited all over, it’s fun to have lots of ways to sneak around the E.V., and use map awareness to sweep up opponents. Honestly the MCP in Quake Wars was a boring mess outside, if it got stuck in the wrong spot. But objective points really need to be cleared of holes in the walls, in some cases just putting in some damn doors and windows and making the fight about two teams, a flank point, and a data-core, or whatnot.

What I’m saying overall is I could load up and navigate Valley start to finish, or the innards of Salvage, Slipgate, or Canyon with no issue. I have no chance at recalling any of the maps in DB yet to be honest.

Right now the maps are hard to learn, difficult to spectate, crowded, and really lack what made Splash Damage titles so accessible. Right now the maps feel like Brink… I look back and notice I played 62 hours of that game, and I can’t remember much of the maps at all, outside of the themes…

PS - Instant retrieve of data cores, please!

(potty200) #2

This is what I was saying the other day, I also feel that defence will just end up camping the obj without being able to hold like 1/2 passage ways. Before I got to know the maps I was constantly getting back raped, not so much now though. Which brings me onto another worry. IF there are too many ways to attack/push out from defence. New players are going to constantly get shot in the back. Is this going to detur them from playing and learning the game?

(acutepuppy) #3

I honestly think many modern games keep maps complex, so new players always have a way to sneak around and at least get a kill because every weapon has such high lethality. Everything in Dirty Bomb is much less lethal than most modern games, having freedom to move around while being shot is half the fun!

Honestly Dirty Bomb is an arena/sport type game (Quake/Tribes/Unreal) in a military setting. The maps would make sense to be be arenas (predictable, something you can plan, full of jump angles and calculable enemy positions) disguised as urban chaos. Instead, they are just urban chaos.

(stealth6) #4

I don’t agree, only LB is confusing in the beginning and mainly at the bridge part (where the EV crosses the bridge). It did blow my mind when I realized that the map is a circle though. You start at the end.

I think maybe that part of the map should maybe be tackled, where the defenders spawn in the parking garage and can get shot from 3 sides. Apart from that you get used to the maps pretty quickly.

(Maca) #5

I’m not going to provide any arguments because I frankly don’t have confidence in myself in this area, but I also found the maps overly complex because of the little nooks and crannies the first time I played, and I still do.

(Loffy) #6

I do not know about the multiple routes and alleys, but the maps do have a “crowded” feel. I wrote about my feeling of the maps being cluttered here, and my opinion is that DB as a game need to attract as many players as possible and therefore it is not optimal if the maps feel crowded and cluttered.

As level designers I can understand that you want to create sweet looking, detailed maps, but if they become too cluttered there is a risk that new players will feel that they are too confusing.

(Ashog) #7

There were a lot of IRC discussions (and even here) about more linear progression over map designs and SD acknowledged partly this issue. So look at Camden map and you will see that it is by design very close to what would be a typical ET map design. More maps under development (or will be) so I am sure we will see all kinds of fun map designs still.

The one choke point that’s fun already for me is the Waterloo station square (after 1st obj is done) - great main entrance fights, where one might as well take the sidestairs up or push into the inside wide area. Love eet.

(rookie1) #8

Took me while to learn maps and be more comfortable with the game had to spec a while …Now im kind of addicted ! :slight_smile: cant wait for new maps :slight_smile:

(EnderWiggin.DA.) #9

What I’m saying overall is I could load up and navigate Valley start to finish, or the innards of Salvage, Slipgate, or Canyon with no issue. I have no chance at recalling any of the maps in DB yet to be honest.

I had the same problem but I feel that many of the maps look the same. This makes sense because all of the current maps take place in very urban areas. There isn’t (currently) a snow map, a desert map, or a temperate map to distinguish one set of paths from another which make distinguishing the first 3 DB maps easy on the first plays. This situation has improved somewhat as level designers add more art but I still think it could be a problem for many future maps if everything looks the same.

Personally, I think as you learn the maps your opinion will change from “too many routes” to “OMG too cramped, gimme teh Camden’s!” Time will tell.

(INF3RN0) #10

Agree on crowded. The maps aren’t that difficult to learn- just give it a week. The problem is that there is not a lot of verticals as well. ETQW interior map designs were very simple in their overall design, but had very open in-door spaces and lots of ways to traverse from one space to another (so you always could clearly see where you were heading). The outlay of some of the DB maps also don’t entirely connect together, where in some of the more attractive defend points separate players by fairly long distances. Camden was quite a nice change of pace and I am sure after more feedback we will see a lot of improvement.

(murka) #11

Only LB has this crowded and tight feel. Mostly I’m bothered by the thin wall between first and second barrier. As a defender i just can’t ignore those footsteps, but they are miles away while being so close.

(mikeX) #12

Some maps are complex indeed. London Bridge is like labyrinth for any new player. I just hope that this won’t scare them away as they are getting back raped again and again…
However, it would be interesting for sure to see how the maps perform in a 5on5.

(SockDog) #13

Not sure if the levels are cramped or it’s as has been mentioned before, that the scale is just off. Not sure about removing the clutter either, this is meant to be a messy place. I know that doesn’t fit with the W:ET/ETQW expectations but perhaps this is going to need the use of some cover at times rather than long corridors or wide open spaces. At the core though I’d love to just see the player models shrunk down and see how it feels.

Regarding variety. I guess you have the seasons to lean on and we’re already see time of day influences. A Leicester Square one at night could be good, Hyde Park Corner (http://goo.gl/maps/vn6iQ) during Autumn would give plenty of scope for open areas with Hyde Park showing signs of demonstrations and camps etc to ease it being just a flat plain, there are also a lot of embassies around which could prove lucrative targets. The River Thames needs to feature on a map, could we have to lower Tower Bridge (http://goo.gl/maps/36xUd) as an objective? The Tower of London is of course right next to the bridge. Not sure how far out the containment is but you also have Richmond Park/Wimbledon Common for some Womble action. :slight_smile:

BTW here is a streetview of what I believe part of London Bridge was based on. Yada yada I know it’s a game but compare the pedestrians to what you experience in game. http://goo.gl/maps/vB58S

(Paul) #14

Just my 2 cents: I do not have this over-complicated feeling at all. Maps are great - I even believe maps in nowadays games do not have any challenge anymore, you can finally discover a bit now :slight_smile: Just need to explore and find out a few times and you’ll understand.

(acutepuppy) #15

I definitely need more time playing. I’m not saying the new maps are bad, by any account. I feel like they just may be missing areas that contribute to the exciting plays that are good for spectators, and the all important “oh ****” moment that gets a player hooked.

Proper radar systems with Covert Ops could change a lot as well.

I think I’ve played mostly London Bridge so far.

(acQu) #16

My opinion ? Yes, maps are not bad at all, but they are small and convulted. Very much agree, it is an issue of simplfication and very clear frontlines vs complex design. Me personally thinks that human perception is stressed really hard, maybe even too hard, when there are 4 to 5 places to look out for at once. W:ET (can’t talk about ET:QW, because i havn’t played it) always had clear frontlines. Of course, there were also places to hide in W:ET, but in my opinion DB really overstresses that. It becomes like Lotto more or less, if you have so many potential places zo look out for at once, feels like an enemy could pop out of every corner at any time…

(Anti) #17

I didn’t read the OP’s point as hard to learn so much as hard to tell where the opponent is coming from and why. It’s something I’ve experienced as well and watching a PUG earlier today seemed more obvious, there aren’t the key choke points or bottlenecks that you would have seen on Salvage, Ark or Refinery interiors in ETQW, or even Resort and Aquarium in Brink.

(Violator) #18

Initially the maps seem complex but after a week or so I found the objective routes are pretty well laid out with various small nooks and crannies on the side. LB for instance (and Whitechapel) has many open shops and alleys off the main route but they don’t constitute a separate route themselves on the whole, but rather provide some cover or a place to hide / regroup etc. and mainly get you back on the route you were already on. The exception is the end obj on LB which has several routes but I find this one of the most fun parts of the map.

(warbie) #19

Agreed and well put.

(acutepuppy) #20

Exactly. I like food metaphors. I see DB maps as a big plate of spaghetti, which is rad, but I want some meatballs.