Not the same mistake again?

[Smooth]

1. Are we limited to 1 loadout per class per round, i.e. could we choose 2 Medics, 2 Engies and 1 Soldier (and forego playing Sniper and F/Ops) ?

You will always have to have one of each class. If we allowed people to pick 5 Snipers for example, there’s a chance no one on the team will have an Engineer for map objectives, the essential Medic or someone to provide ammo etc.

[maxxxxlol]

Having to exit the game cause I chose the fops with airstrike and want to change to the arty. awesome

[Mustang]

of the 25 possible combinations (5 players * 5 load-outs)

Wouldn’t it be more like players^loadout possible combinations so 5^5 = 3,125

I can’t remember the last time I played 5 different classes in a single round

This is true, but often there is a strong need to change loadouts with-in the same class, combined with Smooth’s reasoning for requiring at least one loadout from each class to be selected then 5 selections is too limiting.

I’d rather keep it simple and allow 2 loadouts from each class for a total of 10.

Alternatively if 10 is considered too high then any 6 loadouts from any class, but at least 4 of the 5 classes must have a loadout selected for them, however you might still run into problems of leaving some classes uncatered for.

Or 7 loadouts with 1 from each class and 2 from any class.

[Samurai]

Yep personally i find myself liking this loadout system, once the tweaks dev’s have already mentioned fall into place (i.e change which characters we want at end of each round) it should be nice - you could even give the player a choice of 6 characters - the first 5 have to take up 1 of each class and then the last can be an alternate option to either strengthen your weakest class or a character you feel may come in handy at one or two point’s within the game.

Most of the moaning is just unreasonable… basically saying if you use healing station + shotgun on offense you are rendered useless for the entire round. I mean cmon be realistic here - if anything just address the weapon balance of this character so it can be effective on both offense & defense rather than blame the load out system, give the machine pistol a bit more of a buff for example or change the way the healing station works - at the very least after the 1st round you will learn to change this medic choice depending on which side you play. - Yes for now it’s frustrating as we can’t change between rounds but when this is implemented it will be fine.

I can foresee the narrowing selection of the most effective classes being taken, but this is up to SD to make each character equally as effective and interesting to play. And tbh im fine with this narrow character selection i mean i’ve played ETQW Medic/Technician like 80% of the time and Infiltrator/Covert Ops the remaining 20% so i can’t say i will miss the great variation of using all the characters. As long as alternate ones are fun and enjoyable to play (i.e bring something new) then they will get used every now and then during public for fun.

Edit: I can see this being quite a strategic element to comp as well depending on the final variation between the characters but the load out choices between 2 teams could have quite an impact on the way maps are played and the tactics that are used. It’s a talking point for spectators and a decision for teams to make that is something we are not used to from our previous FPS games. It’s a new factor that teams will have to learn and adapt to choosing the ideal load out for each map and either get rewarded or punished for it. We are used to adapting our classes (and the primary weapon they use) but now we have an additional layer of classes and characters (with different weapons entirely and different key abilities within these classes). It opens up the diversity within a match but also closes it off to allow you to be rewarded for taking a “risky” option rather than let the other team change to a character that will easily counter it preventing any risk/reward choices with the load outs.

[Kendle]

I like the idea of having 5 + ‘x’ choices if 1 from each class is compulsory, as that allows you to specialise as something. So if you decide you want to play Medic, for example, most of the time, you could choose 2 Medic load-outs + 1 of everything else. I’m not crazy about the idea of having 5 choices only when as many as 4 of them could be wasted because they relate to classes I don’t play.

I don’t however believe for one moment that the game fails if we can’t choose the exact best load-out for the precise situation we find ourselves in at any and every moment in the game. During this Alpha we’ve had times when a particular class had a certain feature but not another, and it hasn’t been unplayable due to not being able to switch between the 2.

Edit: I can see this being quite a strategic element to comp as well depending on the final variation between the characters but the load out choices between 2 teams could have quite an impact on the way maps are played and the tactics that are used. It’s a talking point for spectators and a decision for teams to make that is something we are not used to from our previous FPS games. It’s a new factor that teams will have to learn and adapt to choosing the ideal load out for each map and either get rewarded or punished for it. We are used to adapting our classes (and the primary weapon they use) but now we have an additional layer of classes and characters (with different weapons entirely and different key abilities within these classes).

Totally agree with this. A lot of the strategy in CS comes from what you buy and when, having limited choices of a wide variety of load-outs adds a whole extra dimension to competition, something objective mode gameplay has never seen before.

[Anti]

I’m currently off sick with the flu and I’d much rather be asleep than replying to this thread, but I’m worried about how much needless panic is being caused by people misunderstanding this design so hopefully I can add a quick post answering some of the questions and calm people down…then sleep

“Why are there characters?”
As we’ve said from the start DB is a Free-to-play game. This means you should be able to play it in its entirety without ever spending money, but it also means we need a way to monetize some players to make back the money that has been invested in making the game.

We know from the huge amount of research that we’ve done that aesthetic micro-transactions generally make very little money and don’t appeal to many players, whilst adjustments to game play do. This is why characters are so important to DB, they will be the main source of revenue.

This doesn’t mean the game is pay-to-win, each class has a role and each character should fill that role effectively. The difference between each is simply their play style, how they function to achieve that role. Essentially each character should be a side-grade.

Characters will be unlocked over time, for free, via an in-game currency or something similar, or they can be purchased.

“Why can I only take in five per match?”
This is an issue that all games that offer a lot of choice face. The game needs to load all the characters available for each player on the server into memory when the game begins, without a limit this can be a massive amount of memory or lead to issues where players are running around without models loaded. It’s basically not technically feasible. This is why even simple games like CoD and Crysis 3 still limit you to X customized slots that you can only change between matches.

For now our limit is five slots, that might change in future depending on testing and optimization if we find we can fit more.

“Why is it one per class?”
Because we don’t want your team to be missing the ability to do certain roles, so you each need to take one character for each role.

In future we might change this and allow you to take multiples of the same class, but it’s not on the cards right now.

“What if I like character X but weapon Y?”
We’re aiming to eventually allow some alt weapons per character, so that combat style isn’t always tied to an ability. i.e. Health station Medic might have an SMG she can equip instead.

“How can I choose if I don’t know what other players have?”
This is a good point, I’ll look into it further. Kendle’s suggestion that selection might be able to happen after joining the session but before spawning/loading might be something we can do, so you could pick knowing what the team has.

“Why can I only change in the launcher?”
This is simply a work in progress implementation. We’re gradually moving most of the UI into the game over time and you’ll be able to swap characters between maps in-game.

“This is Brink again!”
No it’s not. In Brink you had to quit the server to change load outs between maps, in DB you won’t. Brink also had a very lumpy system for switching a load out, in DB it’s pretty simple. Brink’s upgrades were largely invisible on team mates and enemies, you didn’t know what they had and what you needed, in DB the neat packages that are characters make this very easy to understand.

Hopefully that clears a few things up. I know that a lot of you would only like the same five characters for everybody, but if we were to pursue that sort of design, a ‘Wolf ET 2’ design, we’d have no F2P business model for the game. However that is what we are, a F2P FPS game.

We’ve always said DB would bring some new things to the table, that it is its own game, and characters are pretty much the biggest of those new things.

[Tast1c]

Sounds interesting, here is my concern:

You play Medic X and unlock all his Tier abilities early and mid game.

Then you change to your Medic Y in the endgame which has a better ultimate Tier 3 ability and you might still swap to Medic X Tier 3 ability to use it aswell. But is this a fair process, game flow?

It might work… but IMO it feels like it conflicts the whole System and end game might get Tier 3 spammy at some point. Because you use all the best char abilities at your will. Not much adapting needed.

[BomBaKlaK]

We’ve always said DB would bring some new things to the table, that it is its own game, and characters are pretty much the biggest of those new things.

Let’s test ! I want some new stuff on the table, but this things need to be effective, and interesting to play.
change between maps is not really a problem for me, but need a good implement to have the time to change if we want to.

[AntOO14]

Right i get the point, a good explanation.

[Hansi]

[QUOTE=Anti;448387]I’m currently off sick with the flu and I’d much rather be asleep than replying to this thread, but I’m worried about how much needless panic is being caused by people misunderstanding this design so hopefully I can add a quick post answering some of the questions and calm people down…then sleep
[/QUOTE]

Thank you for all the explanations, good recovering and sleep well. Maybe 28 days later you will wake up and you will see that it was not a normal flu and that the bomb has been delivered

[demsix]

Bring back EXP based unlocks per campaign ;_;

[scre4m1]

[QUOTE=Anti;448387]
“Why is it one per class?”
Because we don’t want your team to be missing the ability to do certain roles, so you each need to take one character for each role.

In future we might change this and allow you to take multiples of the same class, but it’s not on the cards right now.[/QUOTE]
As I stated earlier, imo grenade launcher soldier and MG soldier are 2 classes in my eyes. And I still dont like the idea of being forced to pick one for a match, cause you will need both ( possibly)

“What if I like character X but weapon Y?”
We’re aiming to eventually allow some alt weapons per character, so that combat style isn’t always tied to an ability. i.e. Health station Medic might have an SMG she can equip instead.

thank you. just what I wanted to hear

I’m currently off sick with the flu and I’d much rather be asleep than replying to this thread

get well soon.

[attack]

Ty for the answer :),gn8

[Bloodbite]

[QUOTE=Anti;448387]
“What if I like character X but weapon Y?”
We’re aiming to eventually allow some alt weapons per character, so that combat style isn’t always tied to an ability. i.e. Health station Medic might have an SMG she can equip instead.[/QUOTE]

I think it would be worth throwing a survey out to all of us, when the time comes, as to whether or not the switchable weapons should be limited to pre-match setups, or changeable mid battle like in the W:ET and ETQW loadout screens.

[mortis]

I understand the finer points of monetization and unlocking, but if you want my opinion as to which game had the best character selection menu, it was ET and ETQW limbo menus. Simple, enough variety to shake things up, easy to use on the fly in-game as things change. If you are locked into a character at the beginning of a match and someone rage quits, leaving you with no soldiers, or no engineers, then what?

Maybe you can have a pay/unlockable extra character that is able to pick and choose abilities, an engy with C4, a soldier with pliers to do disarms, etc, but a total number of abilities equal to any other character, and a generic limbo menu with the main characters for the cheapskates.

[Kendle]

If you are locked into a character at the beginning of a match and someone rage quits, leaving you with no soldiers, or no engineers, then what?

LOL, then YOU go Soldier or Engineer or whatever. You’re only locked into a load-out of a class, you (and everyone else on the server) can still switch to any other class you like whenever you like.

[Protekt1]

I don’t see a big deal with this yet everyone seems to be screaming blood. Limiting to 1 loadout per class forces you to think strategically and make compromises. You can’t just pick the best loadout for every situation. You have to think ahead and say I’ll probably need these tools to do this part and these tools to do that part. You’ll have to also think these tools will be useful if the enemy does X but I’ll have to rely on teammates to counter Y.

At least that is the way I see it. Sometimes the removal of unobstructed choice makes the choices you actually make more meaningful.

The alternate weapon thing seems necessary, however.

[Bloodbite]

[QUOTE=Protekt1;448472]…
The alternate weapon thing seems necessary, however.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Take away our guns and everyone gets a bit crazy protective.

[mortis]

LOL, then YOU go Soldier or Engineer or whatever. You’re only locked into a load-out of a class, you (and everyone else on the server) can still switch to any other class you like whenever you like. .

Yeah, I suppose you’re right, that’s what happens when I post when I still haven’t fully woken up.

In any case, why not have access to all the main characters? I fail to see how limiting access to them improves player enjoyment of the game. Maybe make it payable/unlockable, but full access seems like more fun to me…

[Jonny_Hex]

[QUOTE=mortis;448490]Yeah, I suppose you’re right, that’s what happens when I post when I still haven’t fully woken up.

In any case, why not have access to all the main characters? I fail to see how limiting access to them improves player enjoyment of the game. Maybe make it payable/unlockable, but full access seems like more fun to me…[/QUOTE]

Because part of your team strategy is to select an appropriate array of characters before you enter a match. You can choose your dudes, then you can play with them. You can learn what works for you, see how that fits with your team, and see how that stacks-up against your opponent’s choices. It’s an interesting choice.