Not the same mistake again?

(INF3RN0) #21

What is the benefit of locking to one loadout per class per match??? I’d like to know.

(tokamak) #22

[QUOTE=attack;448222]but why :confused: i have not understand it in brink and not now why implement this?
would be nice if you could explain it to us[/QUOTE]

Because the game is about playing with what you have. Not choosing from an infinite amount of options which suits you best.

(scre4m.) #23

I personally like the idea of loadouts, as everyone knows what a certain loadout includes. Its better than free pick and creating a class of your own in this regard.

What I really do NOT like is the idea of being limited to 5 loadouts. WTF is this? You restrict the freedom of choosing the fitting loadout for the situation! For what reason? why? name 1 argument for this limit.

Seeing the general reaction on this forum regarding loadouts gives you a nice preview if you really bring this to final. This will cause much rage and I cannot imagine playing a game in which I am limited to such an extent.

Sure most players will stick to 2 or 3 loadouts within a match. But I want all loadouts at any time I feel like changing to a different loadout.

(Kl3ppy) #24

I hope that there will be 5 loadouts for attacking and 5 laodouts for defending. Then you can pick attack/defend specific attributes/weapons etc. Right now it is a bit too short and not really nice that you have to leave the server to test for example the other medic layout.

But it is the first time that we are able to choose between different chars. Its the first time the barracks are live. Lets wait till this good some improvement, for me it looks like SD wants to test it. And thats what I want to see in an alpha. We get new stuff to test and give feedback. SD takes this feedback serious and improves the stuff we really dont like.

(Kendle) #25

I can kind of understand the disappointment of not being to choose any loadout at any time but I’m not sure it’s that big a deal.

  1. If I understand correctly the final game will only ship with 1 (free) loadout per class. To get more you need to pay for them. Anyone playing for free won’t need to be able to choose between more than 5 loadouts because they won’t have more than 5 loadouts.

  2. Apparently we will be able to change loadouts between rounds (whilst on server), so if playing SW for example, and we have a defensive Engie and attacking Engie loadout, we’ll be able to choose the appropriate one for whichever half round we’re playing.

  3. In practise does it really matter? Will you really want to play every single class, using more than 1 loadout per class (assuming you’ve paid for them), during the course of a single round? I very (very) much doubt so.

What I don’t know is:

  1. Are we limited to 1 loadout per class per round, i.e. could we choose 2 Medics, 2 Engies and 1 Soldier (and forego playing Sniper and F/Ops) ?

  2. If we pay for extra loadouts does the max. number of loadouts we can choose from also increase ?

(scre4m.) #26

[QUOTE=Kendle;448323]

  1. If I understand correctly the final game will only ship with 1 (free) loadout per class. To get more you need to pay for them. Anyone playing for free won’t need to be able to choose between more than 5 loadouts because they won’t have more than 5 loadouts.[/QUOTE]
    I really hope we will be able to unlock more loadouts with ingame money, so free players won’t get a disadvantage.

[QUOTE=Kendle;448323]
2. Apparently we will be able to change loadouts between rounds (whilst on server), so if playing SW for example, and we have a defensive Engie and attacking Engie loadout, we’ll be able to choose the appropriate one for whichever half round we’re playing.[/QUOTE]
but there is more than1 defensive and 1 attacking loadout. 4 loadout slots each class are planned. So if those are useful, why restrict them?

[QUOTE=Kendle;448323]
3. In practise does it really matter? Will you really want to play every single class, using more than 1 loadout per class (assuming you’ve paid for them), during the course of a single round? I very (very) much doubt so.[/QUOTE]
I have always been looking to master all guns in a game ( at least to a certain degree) so I will use more than 5 loadout slots a round if I feel it helps. If I feel attacking medic is the only slot I need I will only use one. IMO the player should be able to choose if he plays 1, 3 or 8 loadouts in one round

[QUOTE=Kendle;448323]
What I don’t know is:

  1. Are we limited to 1 loadout per class per round, i.e. could we choose 2 Medics, 2 Engies and 1 Soldier (and forego playing Sniper and F/Ops) ?

  2. If we pay for extra loadouts does the max. number of loadouts we can choose from also increase ?[/QUOTE]
    I hope we can choose multiple loadouts per class

(iwound) #27

[QUOTE=mfzor;448239]I don’t like this at all, you should be able to choose your loadout ingame to reflect the dynamic nature of play/strategy.

Restricted for ??? reason is simply not good…

edit:
I have not played yet as I’m at work[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=rand0m;448254]This game is slowly getting worse and worse. Soon it won’t be recognizable as a “classic type fps”. The PC FPS genre is done. Apparently valve listens to their fans with CS:go. Changed enough to be pretty different but still, the core gameplay of CS is still there. You are turning this into a terrible version of brink. Take from your previous titles, brink was A W F U L.

Poor choice of game engine as well. Unreal engine is just bad for this type of game, such a shame.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=rapid_shot;448295]I don’t like that either. I don’t see where limiting the players options can ever be a good idea. If I’m sucking as the shotgun engi and mine, why shouldn’t I be able to change to the assault rifle and turret?

I would just like to hear the logic behind this decision to only be able to choose 5 per session.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Shifty.;448320]I hope that there will be 5 loadouts for attacking and 5 laodouts for defending. Then you can pick attack/defend specific attributes/weapons etc. Right now it is a bit too short and not really nice that you have to leave the server to test for example the other medic layout.

But it is the first time that we are able to choose between different chars. Its the first time the barracks are live. Lets wait till this good some improvement, for me it looks like SD wants to test it. And thats what I want to see in an alpha. We get new stuff to test and give feedback. SD takes this feedback serious and improves the stuff we really dont like.[/QUOTE]

For those too lazy to read a whole thread before a rant. read this.
I think Anti made a good quote explaining it. if i can find it ill post.

[QUOTE=iwound;448229]You choose the the five characters that you prefer before your match. Out of many, many choices. not just these two.
Based on the level and whether your defence or attack and your preferences.
It adds another level of strategy. If you choose wrong, you may suffer. But will learn over time
which characters suit your style over different levels.

if you could choose any character at any time it would be like getting any weapon or upgrade at anytime.
you have to learn, adapt and progress. That’s the longevity. In developing your skill.[/QUOTE]

i could say the same to you. have you thought it through.

If you choose the wrong loadouts, next time you choose a better loadout.
If you had access to all loadouts, the whole match would be spent picking and choosing with many afk for periods of time. wondering whether to have the gun with the red stripe or not.

ingame its a simple choice of what class is needed.

the restriction gives you a second teir of choice. that actually means something.

btw any loadout can be attack or defence. i see no proof of being one way or the other.

[QUOTE=Kendle;448323]

  1. Are we limited to 1 loadout per class per round, i.e. could we choose 2 Medics, 2 Engies and 1 Soldier (and forego playing Sniper and F/Ops) ?

  2. If we pay for extra loadouts does the max. number of loadouts we can choose from also increase ?[/QUOTE]

i would expect the 5 classes only. good point about SD needing to sell extra characters.
i expect that more than one set would be available from the start. so as to show the feature off.

(pulley) #28

no loadouts please!!! or at least u can change them every round! Who needs a Medic with Healthtower on attack?

(scre4m.) #29

[QUOTE=iwound;448327]
If you choose the wrong loadouts, next time you choose a better loadout.[/QUOTE]
so the whole team suffers from a lack of communication. Imagine, a team with no soli loadout (if its possible) so we cant finish the map. Or some guys refuse to play engi while you have the wrong engi loadout for that stage. This restriction requires some arrangements before round-start.

respawn times?!?!?!?!?!??!

if your skill is limited to one class I rlly cannot help you out, dude…

(iwound) #30

your confused about the system. you choose one loadout per class. if you make the wrong choice its your fault so next time you try to do better.

maybe, but with many many characters that would soon run out.

what are you talking about skills in one class. i pick a class that helps the team in the situation. i can pick any class at any time. can you explain what you mean.

(murka) #31

Dozens rant about different loadout for attack/defend…

(scre4m.) #32

so if I am restricted to 1 loadout per CLASS its even worse. Basically we can forget about shotguns and stuff as they arent useful for a whole map but only for some close combat parts.

[QUOTE=iwound;448332]
maybe, but with many many characters that would soon run out.[/QUOTE]
??

[QUOTE=iwound;448332]
what are you talking about skills in one class. i pick a class that helps the team in the situation. i can pick any class at any time. can you explain what you mean.[/QUOTE]
you cant pick any class at any time with this system. As I dont see an MG soldier as the same class like a Grenade Launcher soldier, and with limited skills I mean if a player is capable of using 4 different weapons for 1 class, why shouldn’t he be allowed to do so, if the map allows a sensible use of all.

Imagine a soldier.
He will get this grenade launcher. I have never seen it in action, but I guess it will damage the EV quite a bit and maybe be efficient in clearing MG nests.
So for EV stages on defense I will go for a greande launcher. So I do much damage with one shot but my RoF is low and damage output will be low if there is no EV or enemies on close range.
For defending a data run I’d probably stick to a machine gun, as I can cover one doorway quite well with high RoF and a LARGE clip.

So I’d really like to use 2 soli loadouts. And maybe even more if the other loadouts are available.

After all, setting up a good team will only work in comp, where you have a nice communication. Pub play will be **** with this system.

(Mustang) #33

Right now it’s too restrictive.

If it were choose 2 loadouts out of a possible 20 or so for each class (i.e. 10 quick switch builds in-game) then that would be a much more acceptable compromise.

Main thing missing in the loadouts right now is an Engineer with Assault Riffle + Mine and a Medic with Assault Riffle + Healing Station, hope to see characters with these configs appear at some point, otherwise I never get to play with any of these cool toys (I find Shotgun no fun at all).

(.N.E.R.D.) #34
  1. No real argument for this desgin choice.
  2. I need to be able to switch at any given moment. When my radar sniper sucks I need to be the radar snipe not the third eye. When the objective is in a close spot I play the shotgun medic not the ranged medic. When the obj spot is sweet for turrets I need the the turret engie not the mine engie that plants em where they don’t expect em. soldier flash etc. etc. etc. THAT, is tactical complexity and NOT picking ONE loadout at start of a map and then realising everyone plays shotgun now :confused: And please don’t tell me ppl can talk to another, when does this ever happen ??? Pub is full of pubnoobs ( no offense ). They do just what they want and that is fine with me. You could clearly see that if friendly fire would be off cause then you would rage all the time :wink:
(pulley) #35

i get screams point. Maybe change the load out every stage? So you can adjust your load outs to the objectives

(Bangtastic) #36

the benefit is clearly that a player must come to a decision. i find it very interesting.

It gives you the chance to learn every char. Ofc you will end up with your top 5 for each class I suggest.

On pub I also prefer switching weapons / chars to a certain point (testing weapons, compare and so on).

In a match this system is completely fine. Since you have 5 chars with possible 5 completely different weapons and abilities, it should be enough to come along with.
Your teammates choose other chars in order to complement each other.

I think it is great because players cant always switch to the best chars. In some situations you have to cope with certain situations where it is not always optimal for you, whereas your teammates should help you out. For me that is really a question about skill and teamplay.

It is like choosing your favourite Team. Char switch options in shooters arent taken for granted in nowadays shooters. (ok mohw …well)

Also you have a different relationship to your chars than in other shooters, there it is between you and your weapon.

In a 5v5 match there are potentially 50 different chars, compared to LoL its only 10

Edit: so much hatred… SD always said that they want to create sth new with some old mechanics.
We got fast movement, crouch jumping, accurate hip fire and more to come.

Should this become a game with a great playerbase or not? A classical remake of some old games doesnt have the potential to create a big online crowd.

And the tier system is still missing. I think then you got your reason to play on char per class :wink:

IMO this Tier system cant work with switching every 2 minutes to a new char. Face it.

(scre4m.) #37

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

this is a first person shooter.

I do indeed enjoy playing LoL and the game is really restrictive in many ways. I like this in LoL as you have to think about the combination of champs, who plays on which lane, masteries, runes, and so on…

But DB is not a game like LoL. It is not as predictable as a LoL game. In LoL you play 3 lanes and jungle and its only 1 map(90% of the matches). In DB you have to be able to play way more maps, objectives, way more possibilities for fighting locations, attacking ways are possible.
Just imagine the enemy team holds you at your spawn location. But you have choosen shotgun loadouts as you wanted to go for close combat in some buidings. gr8. enjoy your full-hold.

I dont see a match there.

In DB we need more freedom in such decisions. I just cant see this system working.

(Bloodbite) #38

I haven’t had the time to try this yet, at work at the moment actually, but from what I’m reading I’m going to point out several things I see wrong with a locked loadout system. And even if I’m off with what’s in there at the moment, these are concerns I have about what should NOT be integrated, in a manner of speaking.

[ul]
[li]Tactical Layering: While on paper this sounds like it adds depth, in truth it will create multiple ‘critical’ problems.
[/li][ol]
[li]Time invested in trying and failing for a whole match is going to be a big turn off to basically everyone that isn’t running with their OCD issues.
[/li][li]The reality of this type of “choice” ultimately always leads to some of those OCD’ers finding out which loadouts are currently overpowered, and then everyone plays ONLY those until forced to adapt to a rebalancing patch… but ultimately there will be a decent portion of people that are only interested in playing overpowered ONLY (look at CoD for example, when all the nubs find out a certain SMG is the sh**, every match turns into an SMG circle jerk). This achieves the exact opposite of what this mechanic was intended to encourage. Truly a PUB killer.
[/li][li]Unbalanced elitism. What happens when the popular loadouts are all deep down the road of microtransaction or relatively mid/long term unlocks… the cry of P2W will be heard. Doesn’t matter if it’s true or not, in this instance it has enough of a damaging sway on the game’s rep, at any stage of its life, to be worth avoiding. That mental perception of being disadvantaged for the entire match because of these factors will also make many people, casuals in particular, feel less inclined to play at their best… and then the team suffers.
[/li][/ul]
[li]Stat whoring is something I despise in games. DOTA style whoring, that I believe is the core reason why that game appeals to so many parasites. They get away with it because they’ve established themselves in a sparse genre… FPSing is oversaturated and most people will just move on if they find those kinds of nerds filing into the community with the intent to stay. This point I take very seriously because that particular breed of pseudo strategy nerd is going to be poisonous to DB. There were a small few in Savage 2 that were incredibly annoying to play with, and they were one of the many factors that inhibited that games potential to grow and prosper when fresh new players gave the game a try. Few in number, great in negative influence.
[/li][li]I hate to mention W:ET again, but the loadout options there were still pretty ideal. Specific limitations on weapon type to a class, and possible team limitations for heavy weapons. That mechanic was restrictive yet it bred versatility. The mere impression of a lack of versatile options is antithetical to the concept of strategy and tactics.
[/li][/ol]

Right now the only match locked choices I can conceive of as being a benefit are weapon locks. One shotgun with specific attachments choice… per engineer and medic, or one choice to be shared between the two… that I think is worth testing. But along those lines, giving us the option to bounce between more than one primary weapon for a single class within a match. Tie certain weapon types to a merc (kinda like how CoD does it) or not.

One other thing that concerns me in this is the field ops. Personally I have always felt the airstrike was as rudimentary a class mechanic as pumping out ammo, and I don’t think it should be switched out for arty or whatever other new skills you boys have been cooking up. Airstrike + a changeable skill, otherwise I see the field ops becoming the fat kid nobody really wants on the field, and is always the last choice. Match locked loadouts will make the current semi-redundant nature of the FO a long term stigma for the class.

Perhaps the best litmus test for all of this is to consider the philosophical nature of StarCraft… stat whoring and macro spamming still counts as strategy… but where in that cluster**** of key mashing are the tactics? It’s like chess, and chess ain’t tactical, not if it’s played properly.

DB is tactical.

(maxxxxlol) #39

Terrible idea

(Kendle) #40

I just don’t see that ever happening.

Suppose there are 5 people on your team, and every single one of them has chosen 5 load-outs each of which only have a Shotgun? For a start that couldn’t actually happen at the moment because only 2 classes have Shotguns, but even if every class had a load-out that has a Shotgun, what are the chances that, of the 25 possible combinations (5 players * 5 load-outs) you’ve all gone for Shotguns only?

If your team spawned with 5 Snipers on WC 1st stage, attack, you’d be ****ed because you didn’t have an Engie to get the EV started. Increasing the choices players have of class / load-out only increases the chances your team will have the wrong tools for the job.

The only problem I see with the current system is that currently we have to choose load-out in the Launcher. We need to be able to choose load-out in warm-up, i.e. make our choices once we’ve joined the server and can see what choices other players have made, the same way we do now when choosing class based on what’s needed.

I can’t remember the last time I played 5 different classes in a single round, let alone wanting to play 10 (2 load-outs * 5 classes) or 15 (3 load-outs * 5 classes) etc. I think this is a storm in a tea-cup personally.