No un-hack would be fine.

(.FROST.) #1

This was certainly allready discussed more than once, but I don’t want to plow through the myriade of consisting threads.

My opinion is, that hacks shouldn’t be un-hackable. Just like repair stuff wich also couldn’t get damaged again. Except the maintanence bot, and the bridge thingy in the 2nd Shipyard chapter.
Everbody knows this feeling; you are Res and the Reactor Map screen appears. You just know that you are gonna get screwed and the odds to even get in the reactor are less than 1:10. And getting un-hacked at the warehouse controls is also rather unfair. Its way too easy for the Sec since their spawn is right there.

My undo wishlist:

No dehack except from HE-Charges.Maybe one additional un-hack exception should be the door in Resort, since u can accomplish this mission without it.

No downed fire(even though I’m using it)

(Crytiqal) #2

I would say the hack would have a timer on it tho.

If you don’t continue the hack, it will slowly reset itself. Same as in Quake Wars.

(tokamak) #3

Compartionalising would do a great deal for this objective. Make the hacks themselves easier, but have 3 or 5 levels of security that need to be breached. IE the objective would have to be repeated 5 times rather than the one all or nothing objective.

(.FROST.) #4

[QUOTE=Crytiqal;382298]I would say the hack would have a timer on it tho.

If you don’t continue the hack, it will slowly reset itself. Same as in Quake Wars.[/QUOTE]

And like the two barricades at “Shipyard”; that would be one option. Another one would be making de-hack a lot!!! slower, or hacking a lot faster. I don’t know what most players prefer, but I’m pretty sure everyone would welcome a change in this direction. Even above the “spread issue”.

(tangoliber) #5

I vote for making hacking faster. I think the goal should be to make it so that the offense has to clear out the defense once and then survive at least 1 defensive respawn wave.

If the game was still in development, then I would suggest that the hacker doesn’t have to F key the hackbox once it is set…that he can simply pull out his iPad within a certain range. In that case, you could make the hacking pretty slow, as the defense would be running around trying to find all the hidden hackers all the time. That change would also make it even more unique in comparison to repair objectives. But I’m sure its too late for that kind of update.

(.FROST.) #6

That would be a great idea, plus it would make utter sense, since why should the Op have to go to the hack-box every single time? Isn’t that why they invented Bluetooth in the first place? I mean aside from the option of finding singles in the city-center, exchanging xxx-pics with your friend, or remote control your little “NXT-Mindstorms” robot; hacking fusion reactors was most certainly way on top of their list of possible applications. :wink:

No seriously, very good idea^

(tokamak) #7

Agreed on that. I guess it’s a balance measure or something, but the range for the hacking isn’t that great anyway, so the little hide and seek game isn’t too difficult for defenders. Having to defend the box from engineers alone should be incentive enough to guard the objective as well as the operative.

It’s just a great concept that has been compromised in far too many ways by unimaginative production testers.

(zenstar) #8

Hacking is meant to be a “King of the hill” style objective which means that defence should be able to “undo” the hack.
The problem is that it’s too easy to undo and that it’s easier for defence to clear out the area and then unhack in safety while the attackers either cannot push the hacking or are a man (or two) down while trying to hold a position that is very close to the defence spawn usually.

If the hack objective were dead center of a map or slightly closer to the attackers it’d be a lot better. But they’re usually far too easy for defence to get to and that means it ends up being binary “attackers complete hack” or “defence removes hack”.

Imagine TF2 KotH objectives: the spawn usually moves up with the attack to keep the objective roughly in the middle and everyone trying to take it is still able to fight, and the teams are both pushing for objectives at the same time.
In Brink the defence don’t need to split their attention at all. They can simply camp the hack and if they’re killed off they wait 5 seconds and their straight back in clearing out the hack area.

(.FROST.) #9

The most important thing in “Reactor” is to hold the position above the vents and to take out one or two entire spawn waves. To make it there easier, go through that funnel kinda thing and additionally open the door above the vent system. Holding the position on top is the most crucial task in this first chapter of the mission. If the Sec makes it up there you can as well pack your sack or wait for the next mission.

Reactor is an annoyance since I played it the first time, but the reason why I started this thread is one fairly good match at Refuel. It was fairly good untill we had to hack the warehouse controls. We were clearly the better team(in all honesty), but those Sec guys allways managed to reduce a good share of the hack. It was so frustrating. But I also feel like crying and screaming on a regular basis when I play Shipyard as Sec(last obj) or Resort as Res(also last obj). Though I have to admit, that the Resort hack-obj is the by far the least annoying one. The chances to finally hack it are around 1:3 or 1:4. Shipyard on the contrary wrecked my nerves far to many times by now.

(zenstar) #10

[QUOTE=.FROST.;382326]The most important thing in “Reactor” is to hold the position above the vents and to take out one or two entire spawn waves. To make it there easier, go through that funnel kinda thing and additionally open the door above the vent system. Holding the position on top is the most crucial task in this first chapter of the mission. If the Sec makes it up there you can as well pack your sack or wait for the next mission.

Reactor is an annoyance since I played it the first time, but the reason why I started this thread is one fairly good match at Refuel. It was fairly good untill we had to hack the warehouse controls. We were clearly the better team(in all honesty), but those Sec guys allways managed to reduce a good share of the hack. It was so frustrating. But I also feel like crying and screaming on a regular basis when I play Shipyard as Sec(last obj) or Resort as Res(also last obj). Though I have to admit, that the Resort hack-obj is the by far the least annoying one. The chances to finally hack it are around 1:3 or 1:4. Shipyard on the contrary wrecked my nerves far to many times by now.[/QUOTE]

All hack points easier for the defence to hold than for the attackers to take and hold.
Worst thing about reactor is that once the hackbox is placed the security only need to defend one side as long as they don’t completely remove the box. The attackers should be allowed to place a box on both sides and hack from either side into a combined pool.

The only hack I can think of that’s fair is the resort hack for opening the doors to an alternate route to where you plant the bomb. Both sides can get to it with about the same difficulty, but since it’s a side mission it’s generally overlooked and not defended much.

(montheponies) #11

no ‘unhack’ would make it the same mechanic as the engineer repair…basically the problems i have with it are purely down to map design typically favouring the defense. rather than change the mechanic, i would advocate (again) spawnable command posts, which would put some of these maps more on an attacking footing and make the command posts far more relevant.

(.FROST.) #12

Not exactly the same. since you can walk away while hacking. So the defence would have problems placing the traps when you would not even have to go(assuming you wouldn’t have to press “F”) to the mainframe directly. Would make hackin even easier than repairing.

(zenstar) #13

I like the KotH mechanic. They just need to balance locations better. Too late for the maps we already have though.

(Breo) #14

It’s unbalanced anyway…

For this example I assume that both players have no teambuffs

Operative (hack) vs Engineer (remove hackbox)

A operative have no self buffs
A engineer have damage self buffs

Engineer have more chance to survive + removing the hackbox.

Defending team doesn’t need the relativly weak operative class.
Attacking team need at least 2 operatives to minimize the attack waves from the defending team.

(tangoliber) #15

[QUOTE=zenstar;382329]All hack points easier for the defence to hold than for the attackers to take and hold.
Worst thing about reactor is that once the hackbox is placed the security only need to defend one side as long as they don’t completely remove the box. The attackers should be allowed to place a box on both sides and hack from either side into a combined pool.

The only hack I can think of that’s fair is the resort hack for opening the doors to an alternate route to where you plant the bomb. Both sides can get to it with about the same difficulty, but since it’s a side mission it’s generally overlooked and not defended much.[/QUOTE]

Sec Tower one is easier for offense.

(.FROST.) #16

Uhm ya, and??? Does this undo all the ofense hardship? Even the gate at CC can be easy. But even blowing it up doesn’t prevent you from getting spawn-camped afterwards. You can lead the maintenance-bot up to the Res-spawn and still get spawn-trapped. You(Resistance) just need 1-2 witty engineers, one nade-spamming soldier and some time between two spawn-waves to set-up traps and that’s it; PWNED!

(tangoliber) #17

I don’t understand…I thought we were just talking about which hacking sections are most doable.

(zenstar) #18

Not quite, we’re more discussing how balanced the mechanic is and if it works properly when placed correctly in a level.
Although I’m not sure why .Frost. responded the way he did.

My point of view: The KotH mechanic to hacking is fine. The dominance of defence is the issue here since all they need to do is hold a position and the hacking is generally a lot easier for them to get to they have a far easier time defending the point than the attackers have of taking it.

The Operative is not a useless class but there is a definite imbalance between classes on attack and defence, and that seems to be the general gamebreaker for more than just the hacking mechanic: Defence dominate in 66 - 75% of all circumstances. The balance is way off. It would be way more fun if the balance came out close to 50/50. Difficult to do with an attack / defend scenario maybe, but attacking is soul destroying when you’re a good team being choked simply because it’s easier to defend. Likewise defending gets boring when you jsut have to camp out an area and wait for the clock to drop.

Hacking isn’t broken. It’s about as difficult to do as overall attacking is to do. And that’s the problem really =/

(tangoliber) #19

I know we were talking about the mechanic in general in other places, but I was commenting on these lines:
“The only hack I can think of that’s fair is the resort hack for opening the doors to an alternate route to where you plant the bomb.”
All hack points easier for the defence to hold than for the attackers to take and hold.

I guess I should have cut the quote down to those lines, but I didn’t think that my comment could be misinterpreted. I was adding Sec Tower hack objective to the list of exceptions…not making a statement on the general mechanics. I’ve already posted in favor of tweaking the mechanics in favor of offense.

(.FROST.) #20

@tangolier
Charges can be disarmed, just like hacks can get de-hacked. BUT, BIG differnce here; with charges time works for you, as opposed to hacks, where time works against you. Plus, as soon as you’ve planted a HE-charge you become the defending team, at least for the following 30 secs. Additionally to that, except of “Aquarium” all the HE-charge objs are closer to the ofense.